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This mainly refers to the raven banshee push with PDD to soak the stalker damage.
The truth is that I have only beaten this when the opponent has made a huge error in the build, if its conducted properly it feels like no matter what I do I get destroyed. I haven't got any replays to hand but I'm not asking for analysis of my games more what I should do, and if anybody knows any games were higher level players deal with this kind of play?
Even without the PDD and without cloaking I still lose to this push dramatically.
I've tried going phoenix but it feels like they do nothing in the battle and are so cost inefficient, and a good player deals with the harass easily.
I've tried getting cannons up and engaging at the cannons but it still feels like I get destroyed.
I don't have trouble with other Terran play, I can beat standard MMM pushes if im playing right, its just this one build  .
Thanks for any help!
Oh and I'm 1900 diamond.
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Phoenix do more than you think if you micro well.
The moment your obs sees a raven or starport tech stop pumping stalkers and go straight up zealots, and phoenixes/vrays. Of course T could kite your zealtos but I dont see that too often. Also, if your Terran is smart - if you do quick obs and he spots it he can cxl tech and easily transition into marine/maurder ball and that would rape phoenix heavy build so you gotta be careful
Void ray play is also an options with mass zealots because once your zealots kill all the marines, your void ray can wipe everything else out.
Im a 2600 Terran and I use a variation of this play quite often ( I do a less all-in build and more of a get ahead in economy hit)
Also this has been posted a lot of times so try to search before you post and post a replay.
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Get very suspicious of single-basing terrans. Put up a robo, obs scout, go collossi, or just get a high templar. If you feedback a raven/ghost/PDD, you will be pleasantly surprised with yourself.
Engaging with room to fall back is good too, if you can draw an early PDD.
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Sorry I did forget to search, I'll have a look around now. Thanks but I'm not sure how well the zealot ball will fare? I'll try it out but I think against a delayed version of this push the zealots will melt too fast :/
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The reason why zealot ball will work is because of the AI, banshess will automatically attack stalkers leaving zealots vs marines. And without micro your zealots should be able to wipe the marines pretty easily. But yeah ur somewaht right, a delayed push may rape ur zealots. If it is delayed you can go higher tech and ur 2nd base will start to kick in so the T will fall behind
But again if your Terran is decent and kites then you'll have a problem..lol
HT's usually come out too late to have enough feedback to take out the army
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I think you should try engaging his army close 2 ur base and as soon as you see the pdd run back 2 base and ff so you dont lose ur whole army running back. At base you should be able to fight it. This has worked for me in the past but honestly i havent played against it more then 3-4 times so it would take so exparimenting
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Scout gas > do nothing > scout rax with no addon > add stargate make Phoenix > spot the build and composition > adjust accordingly.
For the build you went up against it should flow like this Gate > Stargate > Robo/Gate > Gate/Robo. Depending on how aggressive he is and what's being thrown at you you can switch the last two.
At the beginning of the game make a few sentries, add Zealots and only Zealots whilst producing Phoenix out of your Stargate. The robotics is for your observer, keep it ALIVE. Be annoying with your Phoenix, pick off mules, gas workers anything. Keep an eye on that Raven, if it gets out of position (away from the marines) Pick it off. They die super fast to 2-3 Pheonixes and once your done fly away. When the engagement comes throw up guardian shield the rest of the energy may be used for Forcefields if you wish. Pheonix should be going to town on the Banshees.
Sit back and enjoy your free win.
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Posting a rep would be appreciated
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Fatale,
I dont think its always good to assume no rax addon is banshee/raven/marine push. I have used this to my advantage countless times where I have a massive marine/maurder ball and the P is shocked with his 5 phoenix floating around. This is more of a metagame thing that you can use as you go up in ladder. But most terrans like to stick with one BO so i'd say 75% its safe to assume no addon = raven
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On December 21 2010 23:07 CrayonKing wrote:
Fatale,
I dont think its always good to assume no rax addon is banshee/raven/marine push. I have used this to my advantage countless times where I have a massive marine/maurder ball and the P is shocked with his 5 phoenix floating around. This is more of a metagame thing that you can use as you go up in ladder. But most terrans like to stick with one BO so i'd say 75% its safe to assume no addon = raven
Then you transition after your first Pheonix. Add 3 Gates. If Terran expos, you expo. If he doesn't stay 1 base, transition into Colossus. All you have to do vs a Terran who goes MMM when you've opened stargate is Survive 'till 3 or so Collosus, thing is he can't catch up in viking count.
Sit back and enjoy a hard fought win.
edit: forgot on my previous post. Pressure with your initial Zealot/Stalker take note of what is coming to fend it off/if a bunker goes down. This should be happening as your Stargate is 1/4 so way done.
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so the answer is to go HT?
at the moment my current pvt strat is a robotics/observer + dark templar contain, expand, tech to HT and then expand again. However, I seem to constantly lose to 3raven,10 cloaked banshee,10viking, + (2-3)battlecruisers push in my backdoor with a marine ball in my frontdoor...
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Personally i either 1g expand or go 2g immortal timing push, both scenarios i get my observer out to deal with possible banshees. if they go banshees then i attack and leave a couple stalkers back to defend.
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Try to get a early observer out and when you see that hes going for raven you should put a probe in the middle betwen your base. when you se that hes moving out you you engage him and then just pull back. even if you lose a few zealots it will still be worth it when the Terran is realying so heavily on the PDD. Most good terrans timme it out so they have energy for a PDD when they get to your base so try to force it before he gets to your base so you can buy yourself more timme.
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or get immortals, PDD does not effect sentry / zeal / immortal,
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1 gate FE. Produce units out of minimum 3 warpgates. Put some (not too much!) cannons in your mineral lines (so that you can fight battles without worrying about some banshees hitting your mineral line), get one phoenix to counter PDD, have an obs in his base to see when he attacks. This does pretty well in my experience vs later banshee/raven/marine/tank pushes.
Fast colossus works well too against the more marine heavy ones in my experience..
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Berfil's advice is the most important. Engage before they reach your base. You shouldn't be struggling if there's no more pdd. Zealots+Stalkers+sentries are still all you need if they lack pdd.
Also, if you expanded before T and you think he's coming with raven+banshee+rine then throw down photons.
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This Raven/Banshee/Marine push is extrememly easy to beat. If you do a 1Gate FE, you can simply overwhelm it with pure Gateway units.
Most of the time I run into this strat from T, the push come so late that your expo is fully operational while they're still on one base. I just get to 6 Gates and a Robo, cut Probes and make 3-4 Obs to be super safe. The results are hilariously one-sided in my favor.
If you are doing a typical 2Gate fast Collosus build that so many Toss are still stuck on, this push will probably beat you because you dont have enough units. Start learning a Gateway-heavy opening into Templar. It's much more stable agasint all the ridicuolous allins T has in their arsenal.
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templar tech is definately the way to go in PvT these days, feed back does really good against ravens and really allows you to more effectively use your gateway army.
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On December 22 2010 00:10 w0mble wrote:
so the answer is to go HT?
at the moment my current pvt strat is a robotics/observer + dark templar contain, expand, tech to HT and then expand again. However, I seem to constantly lose to 3raven,10 cloaked banshee,10viking, + (2-3)battlecruisers push in my backdoor with a marine ball in my frontdoor...
...wait what?!
The amount of Units you listed needs at least 3375 Gas and more than 20 minutes of accumulated Buildtime. Thats not a push, thats a whole friggin game in bronze league.
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Zealots and Sentries are my solution, along with one or two phoenixes. Basically, if your ob scouts a raven, expect this marine/banshee/raven push to come at you about 12-13 minutes. Lay down a stargate and CB out phoenixes while building nothing but zealots and sentries there on out (3-4 sentries are plenty). When the attack hits, throw up a Guardian Shield or two to reduce the marine damage by 33%, and FF the marine ball in half. Sentries and phoenixes actually use up the PDDs energy very quickly (phoenixes count as 2 shots, and sentries shoot quickly @ 1 shot per second). Your stalkers will die, but you mop up the banshees with the phoenixes.
Ideally, move out towards Terran's base before his push commences; IOW, don't camp at your base ... intercept him well in advance of him reaching your base. This will force him to throw down his PDD early, and this push without PDD is a lot more manageable.
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1 base ---> 2gate/robo -> obs -> 3gate chargelots and if he has 2 starports get phoenixes
if u 2 base
make a shitload of warpgates
make lots of guys
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the sooner you have that robotic the better you are + 1-2 stalkers. Or forge + cannon at your mineral line+ 1-2 stalkers. If you don't have both of them and banshee with cloak is in your base, just say GG and try new games.
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On December 22 2010 03:50 whomybuddy wrote:
the sooner you have that robotic the better you are + 1-2 stalkers. Or forge + cannon at your mineral line+ 1-2 stalkers. If you don't have both of them and banshee with cloak is in your base, just say GG and try new games.
You could have read the OP at least instead of posting a generic answer refering to the Threadtitle.
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there are many ways to scout other then by starport. I think that if you consider late game, you are going to need the robotics in every scenario, and if you want to play standard you should open with one at least to play safe. If you wish to go robo / council then use hallucinations for pheonix scout instead of using so much gas early on for only 2 pheonix
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I think the 3 best openings vs T are :
- 1 gate FE
- 2 warpgate, fenix > expand
- 3 warpgate > expand
Actually, i tend to prefer 2 gate fenix, especially because of early banshee harass. With fenixes u hold it pretty easily, plus they give u map control, good scouting, and u can harass mineral line when u have 3/4 fenixes. Its huge.
Because its 2 gates opening, u can hold early early pressure pretty easily too.
Ive not encounter the infamous marine thors rush yet, but i think u can hold it for 2 reasons :
1 - U always scout with ure 1st fenix, then u will be aware of it.
2 - Just build void ray instead of 2nd fenix right when u scout it. And as u know, void rays demolish thors.
The only sensible part is when u take ure expand. To solve that, 3 things :
1 - Make a large number of sentries out of ure 2 waprgates. When u take expand u should have like 5/6 sentries.
2 - Always make a forge before u expand.
3 - Rely on ure scouting informations fenixes give u. If terran play aggresive build u got to have 3/4 canons enpowered buy 2 pilons (at least). If terran is passive, u make less canons, sometimes none. Whatever u make canons or not, its not a waste to make forge because u can make early +1 attack (or +1 def, as u w ^^).
When terran come to ure expand with his force (in agressive mode), u should have something like :
- 5/6 sentries
- 3/4 zealots
- 2/3 stalkers
- 3 canons
- 4 fenix
- 1 void done or in progress
At this point, canons and sentries will save ure ass. Use sentries smartly, keeping terran bio out of range of the canons. This will give u some time to enlarge ure army with more gateway units, eventually make 1 more canon, and also 1 more void ray.
Do not engage out of range of ure canons, and the job is done.
After that point, i usually add 4/5 gateways, continue to make void rays, add council, zealot leg speed, +2 attack, templar archive, expand, etc...
If u are interested by this build u can PM me to get replays.
Sry for my approximative english.
GG's
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On December 21 2010 23:07 CrayonKing wrote:
Fatale,
I dont think its always good to assume no rax addon is banshee/raven/marine push. I have used this to my advantage countless times where I have a massive marine/maurder ball and the P is shocked with his 5 phoenix floating around. This is more of a metagame thing that you can use as you go up in ladder. But most terrans like to stick with one BO so i'd say 75% its safe to assume no addon = raven
I don't understand this at all. After the first phoenix pops out he flies into your base and sees your entire build and adjusts accordingly.
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EPT
