|
assume as a zerg player you got your fast expansion and defended the early aggression and now at the midgame the terran is thor dropping your natural
some say the best response is to drop up there on the ledge but i think the best response is to actually throw down a hatchery at another main and just build it there but dont really do anything with it other than make zerglings and put a spore crawler / queen there to defend against banshees and later on transfer a bunch of drones there to mine. its 350 minerals but it doesnt cost 300/300 (which is the cost of drops and overlord speed)
when the thor drop comes at the midgame you have lots of speedlings and map control but the terran tries to get around that by standing on the ledge with a thor
think about this... if your enemy spends all the resources to drop your ledge instead of trying to fight that off all you have to do is transfer all your drones to your new hatchery in the other main and you still have zerglings on the ground controlling the map to defend the other base and you work on getting mutas out
|
I don't think this sounds like a "counter" to be quite honest. I mean yeah, you can't take down an expansion at a natural if it never exists, but now you have to consider that he didn't just WASTE this tech. now he's got mobility with a scary powerhouse on the field. he can straight up contain you with the rest of his army, so sneaking out a drone will make it hard to expand, and it'll make it especially hard to gather up the army into one ball from forming it from two seperate bases in the early midgame.
Seems like a very flawed idea. I'll remain skeptical until I see 2,000+diamond reps of it working regularly
|
As terran, best response is roaches. Expo at another main, yes, and switch to roaches. Get upgrades. Roach sling bling > thor marine at that point, due to no tanks to blast the roaches. You force tanks, switch to mass ling bling and mutas, when thors come back, roach back up.
Don't lose that queen for no reason at your nat.
In my opinion, mutas arent the answer, as I have 2nd thor in my base, with +1 done, and +2 otw.
I drop thor, 4 marines 2 scvs, and start 2nd cc and get tank + siege + 2 rax to try and get mara tank out fast.
-2500T
On December 20 2010 08:12 Stropheum wrote:
I don't think this sounds like a "counter" to be quite honest. I mean yeah, you can't take down an expansion at a natural if it never exists, but now you have to consider that he didn't just WASTE this tech. now he's got mobility with a scary powerhouse on the field. he can straight up contain you with the rest of his army, so sneaking out a drone will make it hard to expand, and it'll make it especially hard to gather up the army into one ball from forming it from two seperate bases in the early midgame.
Seems like a very flawed idea. I'll remain skeptical until I see 2,000+diamond reps of it working regularly
...it's known to be the only response, as fast thor leaves me with 4 marines that I put on the cliff, and a CC starting. We have no other army. Once they scout my build, they expo before thor is even dropped.
|
|
|
I play terran, and zergs best counter IMO is 2/3 spines and all their overlords. Just get your spines against the ramp, and send in overlords 1by1, moving them back when they orange health. This is the cheapest way to stop it i think.
|
On December 20 2010 08:12 Stropheum wrote:
I don't think this sounds like a "counter" to be quite honest. I mean yeah, you can't take down an expansion at a natural if it never exists, but now you have to consider that he didn't just WASTE this tech. now he's got mobility with a scary powerhouse on the field. he can straight up contain you with the rest of his army, so sneaking out a drone will make it hard to expand, and it'll make it especially hard to gather up the army into one ball from forming it from two seperate bases in the early midgame.
Seems like a very flawed idea. I'll remain skeptical until I see 2,000+diamond reps of it working regularly
terrans 1base for a while to thor drop your ledge
the reason terran thor drops the ledge is because he cannot beat you on a straight fight on the ground; he has to abuse that ledge
by expanding to another main you ignore the ledge and transfer all drones to that new expansion the moment you see the thor drop. and this forces the terran to come onto the ground (where he is weaker than you) to contain your base or attack your expansion at the other main. zerglings are fast enough to respond to 2 places at once (keep 15 zerglings near your main incase drops come) but at this point you should be way ahead of the terran because you are on 2base with lots of zerglings on the ground for map control plus you have spore crawlers and queens at your main and other main expansion to counter banshees plus the terran was 1basing for a long time and now you are still on 2base with a huge economic advantage and you dont gotta worry about the ledge
|
I agree with OP. As a T who always thor drops on lost temple, I'm scared most of him just moving to another base. However, if you know a thor drop is coming, killing the thor will put you ahead if you have a away to do it. But yes, making another hatery would be the easiest way to not "lose" to a thor drop.
|
this is a pretty horrible idea.
First, he can easily move the thor to the other base, and second, you shouldn't let him drop you anyway. Scout him, and if you see he's teching thor, get banelings and bust his ramp. It's a 600 gas infestment to tech to a thor drop, and a baneling bust.
Further, many players opt to wall off with a factory, meaning that if you bust his ramproudn 6:30-7:00, you're going to kill the thor in production.
Also, you should post a replay.
|
What I, as a Z player do when I spot a thor drop is plant 1-2 spines near the cliff, get 1 or 2 overlords for spotting and move my 3 queens into my natural when it's approaching. Usually the spines and queens should be able to kill the thor/medivac. If they don't my mutas usually pop not too long after so then the mutas can safe the expansion.
|
the reason terran thor drops the ledge is because he cannot beat you on a straight fight on the ground; he has to abuse that ledge
And zergs can't handle a head on fight when they build mutas. They have to ABUSE their speed. This sounds like such a QQ.
|
The reason terrans thor drop the ledge is because they can, and it's absurdly powerful. To state that terrans can't win a straight up fight on the ground is patently absurd - terrans certainly have no problem winning those straight up fights on any other map. In other words, pull the other one, it's got bells on.
As terran, you don't have to thor drop of course. Try to vary your play by mixing in some siege tank drops too!
I've had terrans go for a thor/tank drop on that ledge even if I haven't expanded. It's an automatic reaction to seeing lost temple come up as the map, it seems.
|
On December 20 2010 08:22 kmh wrote:
The reason terrans thor drop the ledge is because they can, and it's absurdly powerful. To state that terrans can't win a straight up fight on the ground is patently absurd - terrans certainly have no problem winning those straight up fights on any other map. In other words, pull the other one, it's got bells on.
As terran, you don't have to thor drop of course. Try to vary your play by mixing in some siege tank drops too!
I've had terrans go for a thor/tank drop on that ledge even if I haven't expanded. It's an automatic reaction to seeing lost temple come up as the map, it seems.
On December 20 2010 08:19 Mr_Kyo wrote:Show nested quote +
the reason terran thor drops the ledge is because he cannot beat you on a straight fight on the ground; he has to abuse that ledge
And zergs can't handle a head on fight when they build mutas. They have to ABUSE their speed. This sounds like such a QQ.
but in this situation where the terran thor drops on lost temple a zerg can easily handle a head on fight against the terran.
mutas / lings / roaches can beat a terran who thor drops you because you were on 2base for a while and the terran was on 1base hoping to be able to abuse the ledge to be immune to lings (or force the zerg to spend 300/300 for drops and buy the terran more time to fortify the ledge). the terran has a smaller army than the zerg when he thor drops so of course in the open field the terran will lose a fight. his only response is to choke his expansion and defend at a choke over there, but he will already be so behind cuz the zerg will be on 2 and soon 3 bases by the time the terran saturates his second base
1base thor dropping is known as a weak strategy on other maps because other maps dont let the thor abuse a ledge by the zergs natural. thats why 1 base thor dropping on other maps doesnt let the terran win straight up fights; its a weak build but its stong on lost temple
|
i would try it bw style with spine crawlers as i need them anyway later (probably the thors can snipe one by one though and it wouldn't work). This expansion at the other starting location will probably be scouted and i don't think you are able to prevent queen snipes with positions that far away.
Things i would also try would be to fake the expansion and go for a push, or make a slow drop into his main if he isn't watching his cliff enough.
If i would be good with the timings i would probably try a fast overseer and block his starport or factory from producing hehe.
But those things would only work if you know your opponent well and know he will go for a thors push. Otherwise you lose alot of ressources. Well the slow drop would probably be the best solution as you can also deal with the thor drop if he comes.
|
To make an addendum to my original post, i'd say fast lair tech, additional queens, maybe 2 spine crawlers and overlord speed should do fine. For the most part let the spines deal damage while stacking up energy on the queens earlier on for transfuse on the crawlers. This can only go on for so long until the inevitable bunkers/marines die and the thor has to be moved back for repairs. In this time you get mutas and banelings and expand. From there on, you should have a pretty standard game and be ahead or on an even footing depending on the drones lost, which should be minimal.
|
your counter is another hatch?? doesn't make sense, there is also a thor drop in main follow up with banshee so not sure how this could ever counter this style of play
|
... the real answer is to get a third hatch AND research drop
|
Here's a replay on how to counter the thor drop. Against 2400 diamond terran.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-175126.jpg)
|
Roaches and overlords might consider getting drop and overlord speed too.
Watch fruitdealer play the match up on LT he defends both thor and tank drops with 2 spine crawlers a queen and an overlord.
|
On December 20 2010 08:56 Chylo wrote:Here's a replay on how to counter the thor drop. Against 2400 diamond terran.
That's a pretty elegant way of doing it. Never thought of using multiple OVs to just give continuous vision.
I almost always aim for a pre-7:30 bust if I spot 1/1/1 play, since that counters banshees and thor timings, but this involves little if any augmentation from a default expo play, definitely a superior strategy.
Thanks for sharing this.
|
The reason you should just go for the fast drop is because
A.) It's very easy to deny him almost any unit kills if you are careful with your micro
B.) You will eventually kill everything on the cliff, and very easily, giving yourself a huge lead as well as a very useful upgrade going into the mid game (Ventral Sacs)
C.) You can usually kill the Terran outright after you get OL and Roach speed, just load up all your Roaches into your OLs and drop his main. If he FE'd during his drop he wont have many (if at all) marauders / marines to stop your drop.
It took me a few tries to get this down, the key is making sure you are microing 2 spine crawlers back and forth to keep the thor/tank from being within range to attack the hatchery. Every time he moves forward to siege, just move your spines in range and burrow while using your queens and roaches as support. I generally make extra Queens for this so I can continue to inject as well as transfuse the spines. With proper micro you will not lose a single unit (maybe an OL or two). Make sure you don't take the vespene guiser closest to the cliff as it is guaranteed to die, wasting a drone.
Oh and the basic build for this is something like:
14 Hatch
15 Pool
16 OL
2x Queen
1x Spine
1x Ling
22 Gas
(Drone like hell)
Lair with first 100 gas
2nd Gas
Roach Den during Lair
3rd Gas when you start your Roach Den
1x Spine
Get Ventral Sacs ASAP, when it is half done start OL Speed
Queens and Roaches as Necessary (you should have ~40 drones between your two bases by the time you kill his drop)
The rest just play as normal, take a 3rd, drop his main, upgrade, etc
|
I realize that your first premise is that your expansion is already up and is being dropped, but I just wanted to present a game that I watched which was KyrixZenith vs Boxer/Foxer/MarineKingPrime. I thought he handled the thor drop pretty brilliantly by going one base muta to start.
The game is pretty entertaining too, I recommend watching it. I'd be interested to see any comments on it too.
Kyrix vs Foxer on Lost Temple
|
If I scout the thor drop, (sac overlord around 5:30) and I'm lucky enough to confirm that its a thor drop, I just mass roaches and counter. They usually have a few marines, bunker and maybe another thor - which forces them to recall the thor if they want to survive. I get around 8+ and continue to stream lings in. This is an all in though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
