I generally have this problem, believe it or not. When it comes to late-game, I still end up spamming SCV production, and will often get more than 100 by the end of the game. This hurts, because when I am maxed, half of it is from workers alone.....
I know that I want to stop somewhere between 60 and 80. I generally try to go by the "3 well saturated bases or 4 low saturated and stop" type approach, but I end up spamming scv production anyways.....
How do you (preferably higher level players) remember key points to stop production of workers? And actually act on it?
EDIT - thought I should add in - I also have this problem as Zerg. It sucks when I max out, and have a shitty army cause 120 food is stuck in workers.....
I make SCVs when it looks like I don't have enough, and stop making SCVs when it looks like I have enough. Just drag a box over your entire mineral line and if theres more then one page then you have enough.
You don't actually need more then 60 workers, imo. You're never really going to have to have more then two fully mining bases in most games.
When you realize you have too many workers, or its super-late game and income is no longer important and you want more supply room, you can always suicide workers into your opponent. They make great scouts too!
use your scvs to repair your mech /medivacs. =D who knew medivacs could tank so well <3 drones. i stop after saturation like 24 /base. When i expo like the larva popl before hatch finishs, then i start drone production for that expo.
On December 07 2010 14:22 whitelynx wrote: I make SCVs when it looks like I don't have enough, and stop making SCVs when it looks like I have enough. Just drag a box over your entire mineral line and if theres more then one page then you have enough.
False. Please don't spread misinformation. You have enough SCVs way before you go over one page.
To OP:
2 SCVs per mineral node/chunk is almost full saturation, something like 80 or 90%. 3 SCVs is full saturation for all normal bases. Generally, most pros go for 2 SCV's per node.
If your Command Center is not centered on the mineral line, then obviously you'll need more SCVs to reach full saturation on nodes that are farther away.
Generally, each base on Blizzard maps have 8 mineral nodes, meaning 16 SCV's per mineral line is the number to go for.
The exception to this rule is when you're planning on Manyarding, which is transferring workers from your first base to an expansion. In this case, you can go further than the 16 SCVs, because you're planning on moving a bunch to a new base later.
Another exception is when you're going for your 4th base. Usually, you won't get your 4th up to full saturation when your main starts being mined out. Sometimes, if you've been stuck on 2 bases for a while, even your third won't be fully saturated. What you do then is build some new workers at your 3rd/4th, and transfer SCVs from your main as mineral nodes start disappearing.
Additional information, as well as where I got my 2 SCV/mineral node information, can be found on Liquipedia.
To clarify, the OP knows roughly how many workers he should have, but is asking for cues he can look for in order to know when he should stop making SCV's.
(Cues besides manually looking at each mineral line)
I personally have no good answer to the question, except that the "cue" is likely to change depending on the flow of the game, which indeed brings us back to the "looking at your mineral line" suggestions, which are obvious. So, you're boned, I think.
Trust me, if I'm playing seriously, I'll even make sure that the closest mineral patches get doubled up first during my opening to give me those extra minerals..... I'm not a terrible player..... I'm not good, but I'm not terrible.....
Hell, my very first post on this site was pretty much the exact opposite - I had the impression that 1 scv per patch was ideal (in BW), but then again, back then I never expanded until I ran out of minerals anyways.....
I just keep fucking up something that I know I should be doing, and I'm asking what others do, in case there are some tricks I'm missing.
On December 07 2010 14:22 whitelynx wrote: I make SCVs when it looks like I don't have enough, and stop making SCVs when it looks like I have enough. Just drag a box over your entire mineral line and if theres more then one page then you have enough.
False. Please don't spread misinformation. You have enough SCVs way before you go over one page.
To OP:
2 SCVs per mineral node/chunk is almost full saturation, something like 80 or 90%. 3 SCVs is full saturation for all normal bases. Generally, most pros go for 2 SCV's per node.
If your Command Center is not centered on the mineral line, then obviously you'll need more SCVs to reach full saturation on nodes that are farther away.
Generally, each base on Blizzard maps have 8 mineral nodes, meaning 16 SCV's per mineral line is the number to go for.
The exception to this rule is when you're planning on Manyarding, which is transferring workers from your first base to an expansion. In this case, you can go further than the 16 SCVs, because you're planning on moving a bunch to a new base later.
Another exception is when you're going for your 4th base. Usually, you won't get your 4th up to full saturation when your main starts being mined out. Sometimes, if you've been stuck on 2 bases for a while, even your third won't be fully saturated. What you do then is build some new workers at your 3rd/4th, and transfer SCVs from your main as mineral nodes start disappearing.
Additional information, as well as where I got my 2 SCV/mineral node information, can be found on Liquipedia.
16 SCV is 75% saturation, not enough to make you stop making SCVs, and no pro ever goes for 2 workers per node, because it is stupid and you will never know when you are going to lose some and when you will need to maynard to a new base. Why would a command center ever not be centered? You are not zerg or protoss, you can lift.
If you simply make the bare minimum amount of SCVs, then trust me, you will not do good in a game.
bro 30 workers per base. no more.if you keep spamming scvs you can get caught with your pants down just like a zerg who is spamming drones. Not as bad but you could be diverting those minerals into marines in a critical battle.
I find cues in my build through replays. I'll look at my worker count and say to myself "I should have stopped here" and note the situation. For me, it's shortly after I take my third, right around when my main gets mined out. At that point I'll have enough to mine 3 bases, and I take a fourth as my main fully mines out.
I have to say as a terran player I have never had the problem of too many scv/bases in a game but if I did I would just sac some when I was getting close to max food. Depending on how much minerals you have saved up you might not even need any for the rest of the game. Imo best way to sac them would be to raid an opponents expo with them cause they will have to pull forces just to stop your scvs lol...
On December 07 2010 14:22 whitelynx wrote: I make SCVs when it looks like I don't have enough, and stop making SCVs when it looks like I have enough. Just drag a box over your entire mineral line and if theres more then one page then you have enough.
False. Please don't spread misinformation. You have enough SCVs way before you go over one page.
To OP:
2 SCVs per mineral node/chunk is almost full saturation, something like 80 or 90%. 3 SCVs is full saturation for all normal bases. Generally, most pros go for 2 SCV's per node.
If your Command Center is not centered on the mineral line, then obviously you'll need more SCVs to reach full saturation on nodes that are farther away.
Generally, each base on Blizzard maps have 8 mineral nodes, meaning 16 SCV's per mineral line is the number to go for.
The exception to this rule is when you're planning on Manyarding, which is transferring workers from your first base to an expansion. In this case, you can go further than the 16 SCVs, because you're planning on moving a bunch to a new base later.
Another exception is when you're going for your 4th base. Usually, you won't get your 4th up to full saturation when your main starts being mined out. Sometimes, if you've been stuck on 2 bases for a while, even your third won't be fully saturated. What you do then is build some new workers at your 3rd/4th, and transfer SCVs from your main as mineral nodes start disappearing.
Additional information, as well as where I got my 2 SCV/mineral node information, can be found on Liquipedia.
16 SCV is 75% saturation, not enough to make you stop making SCVs, and no pro ever goes for 2 workers per node, because it is stupid and you will never know when you are going to lose some and when you will need to maynard to a new base. Why would a command center ever not be centered? You are not zerg or protoss, you can lift.
If you simply make the bare minimum amount of SCVs, then trust me, you will not do good in a game.
I think you got carried away in trying to dismantle his post, he's referring to instances where there is not an equal distance to each mineral patch from the Command Center.
You should look at the option of saccing the majority of your scv's later game because minerals that you do get can be transformed into an orbital command which gives you mules...which are each worth about 5-6 scv's. That's like another 3 core units for the price of 400 minerals that pay back with free energy regen.
That point however, varies between game to game. I would suggest maybe about 4 CC's would be the best time to completely stop scv production and use mules as the main source of income. If you think about it, by the time you get to about 3 bases, your main would be about mined out. Therefore, you don't need more than roughly 60 scv's for for mining. Also, given that your mules provide additional income, you even out at about 4 CC's if you start saccing your scv's and making more CC's.
I've never actually experimented with the mass OC late-game strat that seems to be becoming more popular..... I might have to do that, but I don't think that'll stop my problem of building way too many workers before then..... Which is essentially a waste of resources.....
70 workers max for any game. You make any more then you are hurting your army. If you have too much minerals then start spamming OC. You just have to learn this by feeling. I don't think there is a fast way to count all your workers during game.
I also have this problem sometimes. It's so deeply programmed into my brain to spam SCVs all the time that I just can't stop. It's even worse when I try to play Zerg, last game I played I ended up with 118 drones and actually lost to the computer. XD
2 Workers per node is generally enough to have good production of units/tech options. Free minerals should be spent on extra SCVs. if you are planning to be moving out and expanding then start production of scvs when you have all your unit-producing buildings at work. Excess minerals beyond that should be applied to tech or upgrades.
To many scvs (even if you're working towards full saturation) can hurt your army alot more than you think. Having a strong economy isn't going to do anything if you're behind in supply when your opponent comes knocking on your door. Remember that those SCVS take up supply as well which in turn forces you to make more supply depots which is even less money spent on army.
Practice lots and try different combinations of worker/army ratios. And remember to make scvs "before" your expansion finishes so you can start work on getting those minerals back asap.
It depends on a lot of factors, like people above have mentioned. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that it depends on how many OC's you have. Some maps will allow you to take a third with an Orbital while some maps you'll need a PF there. You obviously need less SCV's if you have more Orbital Commands, and it frees up food/minerals for combat units.
Also in my experience as a Random player, Terran in general needs less workers than Protoss or Zerg because of Mules, which is fine because Terran has the slowest worker production of the three races (assuming a portion of Chrono Boosts go to Probes). IMO, it's not necessary to fully saturate (3 per patch) as Terran due to Mules, and the freed minerals/supply really helps Terran be the aggressive race I think its meant to be.
SCVs are actually fairly effective on the front lines. With repair they can hold off Zealots and Zerglings in the early early stages of the game, when your marine count may be dangerously low. In the mid game they can build forward Missile turrets, bunkers, sensor towers, and barrack walls, providing map dominance especially against muta/phoenix harass. In the mid to late game they provide critical repair services for Terran mech. This can be very important to keep a banshee harrass strong or to keep your attrition rates down.
With mules at home, losing minerals isn't a problem. It's hard to think you could have too many SCVs.
It seems your problem with too many SCVs is supply and not minerals.
So make them part of your army composition, not only it will free your supply but it will waste enemy volleys.
Even if its not against siege tanks or collossus, your oponent will hardly be able to 'perfect micro' (not waste any volleys) if you have a good position on those SCVs.
Also, and most importantly, it takes a 'place' (in terms of engage positioning) in your army that doesnt conflit with other units - since even the beefy terran units, like marauders, kite with considerable range (as opposed to zerg or protoss that would have their workers conflicting with other melee units during the engage)
Thats why I believe army-composition-wise the SCV fits perfectly as a military unit, to soak up damage, repair and help with the kiting, preventing other melee to engage your kiting units. Also, if any of them lives, you can always make a random bunker in the middle of the push, if you are about to be forced to a bad position. Does it make sense?
Hi If you find yourself hitting 200/200 food consistently with 100-120 scv's, congratulations you are an excellent player. Stopping worker production is really quite unusual if you are both harassing mineral lines. However you may still have games where you have this problem so: As far as what I look for when trying to transition out of worker production there are a couple major things. Firstly, if I ever hit 200 food I stop making workers. (already maxed no point) Secondly, when I transition onto a fourth base if i haven't taken many scv casualties. (assuming roughly 28-30 workers per base allows me to comfortably pull a majority from the main and some from each expansion. (~85-90 workers total) Finally, if I don't feel comfortable taking another base and feel confident in my current production to end the game quickly. (ie. losing really hard, or destroying) (if losing I usually just try and macro like a fiend using the cut scv money and try to make something happen [slow loss is worse than fast loss imo])
Outside of physically boxing and counting your scvs, there really is no way to accurately gauge unless you expand at consistent markers.
Ignore the 16 workers advice as they clearly misunderstand the reason for over-saturation. Its not to squeeze out more minerals but to minimize the effects of worker harass and also to speed getting other bases up. Going from 24 workers on minerals to 16 is a minor income loss but 16 to 8 is a full half.
If you still find yourself having issues with too many scvs you could always take some riskier bases. Nothing helps cut down your scv count than losing a base .
On December 08 2010 02:39 captainwaffles wrote: After your Third CC has been up for a little bit, unless you've been losing them for whatever reason.
Even though timings for 3rds differ depending on the game, I use this as a queue also. Once my third has been up for a short while, I'll give it some passing assessment and then stop if I deem necessary.
3x8 on blue minerals and 3x2 on gas = 30 in total 3x6 on gold minerals and 3x2 on gas = 24 in total
losing 10 to banshees while you had 10 extra won't hurt as much as having only just enough while you go from 20 to 10 extra to expansions when you get them extras could be later used in an attack with auto repair on
On December 07 2010 14:22 whitelynx wrote: I make SCVs when it looks like I don't have enough, and stop making SCVs when it looks like I have enough. Just drag a box over your entire mineral line and if theres more then one page then you have enough.
False. Please don't spread misinformation. You have enough SCVs way before you go over one page.
To OP:
2 SCVs per mineral node/chunk is almost full saturation, something like 80 or 90%. 3 SCVs is full saturation for all normal bases. Generally, most pros go for 2 SCV's per node.
If your Command Center is not centered on the mineral line, then obviously you'll need more SCVs to reach full saturation on nodes that are farther away.
Generally, each base on Blizzard maps have 8 mineral nodes, meaning 16 SCV's per mineral line is the number to go for.
The exception to this rule is when you're planning on Manyarding, which is transferring workers from your first base to an expansion. In this case, you can go further than the 16 SCVs, because you're planning on moving a bunch to a new base later.
Another exception is when you're going for your 4th base. Usually, you won't get your 4th up to full saturation when your main starts being mined out. Sometimes, if you've been stuck on 2 bases for a while, even your third won't be fully saturated. What you do then is build some new workers at your 3rd/4th, and transfer SCVs from your main as mineral nodes start disappearing.
Additional information, as well as where I got my 2 SCV/mineral node information, can be found on Liquipedia.
Don't listen to this. 2 workers per node is no where near saturation and your income will fall behind fast. 2 workers per node is OPTIMAL mining efficiency as the rate of increase after 2workers/node decreases, but you really want 3 workers per node. After that, extra workers aren't mining minerals faster.
60 workers is probably pretty optimal, 48 on minerals, 12 on gas, two mining bases. If you have 3 mining bases, you can stretch those 60 workers across all three (20 per) and gain a pretty big increase in economy without making more workers (except to fill gas for your 3rd). It's very rare that you have three expansions in one game without one being depleted.
EPT
It's even worse when I try to play Zerg, last game I played I ended up with 118 drones and actually lost to the computer. XD
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