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Hello, high platinum here.
In my last 20 TvZ games against 2 different people, I couldn't win or even get close to killing either one of them, even if I know perfectly what build they're gonna do. In this game, basically what I did was scouting the 14hatch, so I tried to apply early pressure, but failed. Then I tried to transition into mech while expanding while trying to apply pressure, and losing to a single Z attack.
I tried to apply pressure, but failed miserably (I dont see a way to harass zerg as T :/), then tried to take my expo, got attacked, and died. Also misplaced a siege tank in the push, which couldve been a deciding factor as well.
Anyone could help me? Getting really frustrated from this MU..
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-169741.jpg)
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without watching the replay, blue flame hellions/tank drops/overlord sniper vikings/banshees are good to harrass zerg. if youre doing mech you need to keep map control with blue flame hellions and a sniper viking for as long as possible, until your giant push rolls around. you need a big economy to mech vs zerg so plan for the late game, 3 bases at least.
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Shouldve watched the replay.. I made quite a few hellions actually, but I cant get into Z's base/min line anyhow..
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harrassing zerg comes in multiple forms
killing units
killing drones
killing overlords
forcing units
denying expos
they all revolve around messing with his larvae management, or production capability
just because he isnt letting you kill drones (were you microing your hellions as actively as you could have been? did you try dropping?)
did you deny expansions, and map control with hellions? did you kill creep tumours? did you snipe overlords?
by playing a very expansion oriented style you can put the onus on the zerg to be aggressive, at which point you have an advantage because a) youve been killing creep tumours, and b) hellions can sneak around to kill drones/larvae when his army isnt sitting in his base and c) siege tanks/thors/bunkers/ hellions are great at defending, especially chokes
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Seriously, please, watch the rep :/
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While it is good and actually required to put pressure on Zerg early and you claim to have done that, what you actually did was sacrificing 7 marines and 3 hellions for one drone. That is a game ending mistake. The Zerg invested in 3 spineC, there was no need to push there, just sit outside of its base while you take your expansion.
Expand while you push. After your small army died horribly you had more then 1k minerals and 400 gas. That is very, very bad for this stage in the early game. After your second attack, again, you had more then 1k mineral and about 800gas.
Very bad macro cost you the game. Try to build units while in battle, through hot keys. Some times, more so in the early game, you can apply pressure on Zerg by just threatening to attack because they are forced to make units (just in case you attack) and thus not building drones.
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On November 29 2010 05:57 Argoneus wrote:
Seriously, please, watch the rep :/
Seriously, read his reply because he said it all.
Did you try blue flame drops -> No you didn't.
Viking? -> No
Banshee? ...
STARPORT?
- When you move out: go. Don't wait for him to make units and spine crawlers. You gave him time to make them. Kill scouts.
- Don't fight his drone with your SCV (hp regenerates on drones).
- Don't attack with 1 or 2 tanks. Attack when you have like... at least 5 or something.
- Don't attack 3 spinecrawlers with a handful of marines (no stim, medivac support) and hellions.
- Build a better wall
and like previous poster said: expo.
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When you got to his natural and saw three spine crawlers you should have just chilled out there for a bit, made a starport and dropped his main. Theres literally nothing there to stop you, and he'd have been creamed.
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When you saw he was going for a fast expansion at those close positions you should've gone for a two rax marine all in. He had no units to defend for quite a while, and if you just started pumping marines from 2-4 raxes and used your scvs as buffers you would've crushed him. If you don't want to go all in you should've sent over two marines and an scv to put fake pressure and force him to start ling production instead of drones then you should've fast expanded and bunkered up. You waited too long to be able to pressure him. Then yeah like others have said, get a starport, and either get a viking and force his overlords back into his base so he loses vision, or get a medivac and drop a tank and marines on his ledge.With siege mode you could've seriously hurt his expansion.
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On November 29 2010 05:13 Argoneus wrote:Hello, high platinum here. In my last 20 TvZ games against 2 different people, I couldn't win or even get close to killing either one of them, even if I know perfectly what build they're gonna do. In this game, basically what I did was scouting the 14hatch, so I tried to apply early pressure, but failed. Then I tried to transition into mech while expanding while trying to apply pressure, and losing to a single Z attack. I tried to apply pressure, but failed miserably (I dont see a way to harass zerg as T :/), then tried to take my expo, got attacked, and died. Also misplaced a siege tank in the push, which couldve been a deciding factor as well. Anyone could help me? Getting really frustrated from this MU..
Can't watch the replay atm, but when I go mech, I always have enough marines to back it, Just straight mech can get abused by mass lings unless u get enough hellions+blueflame, so, You should have like atleast 3 rax's constantly pumping rines(1 tech to get stim+shields 2 reactors)
Then after that adapt get tanks thors or w/e to counter what he is doing
So if he goes mutas get thors, If hes going like roach/hydra or something get tanks.
But i would almost always suggest opening marines and not rushing mech tech...
Bunker rush's rock :-)
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Can't watch replay but if he made 3 spine crawlers to defend, that's almost 2 hatcheries he could have built. Or 12 drones. Or 4 Queens. Which is pretty big when you look at it like that. When he invests money into 3 spines, you should just pull back, take an expo, reinforce your army slowly and sort of contain him / scare him into possibly investing into even more immobile defense or wasting his larvae on lings/roaches (both are relatively non-meaty and eat through larvae).
Key to mech vs Zerg is patience. Slowly siege/unsiege while moving over to his base, even building a couple turrets/bunkers here and there if you want (a tank/mech heavy army will allow you excess minerals), making sure the tanks are spread apart (spread so much that they may require one full screen to look at all or most of them). Scout around if you have hellions/marines/rauders, denying scouts and checking to see if he might be preparing to surround or swarm in from the back, or try to counterattack, etc.
But moving too slowly is bad too of course, if you give him enough time to build a large enough army. One of the hard parts is determining whether or not he is pumping out army units to the max and whether or not your current army is large enough. But if you know you have enough, that's when you have map control and can expand freely. If he tries to counterattack then advance faster and just kill him off, negating the usefulness of any mobility any of the counterattacking units may possess (like Mutas!!!).
But another option is just to go Bio of course xD
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Looking at the replay, two things stuck out to me:
1. In the early game I think you should have either expanded or applied pressure. You said your intention was to apply pressure in response to the expansion but that's not what you did. Instead you made a reactor, built a factory, and made an add-on with the factory and then attacked way after the window of vulnerability had come and gone. Your other option is to fast expand, which would have fit better with what you were doing. What you did didn't give you enough army to pressure him and set you behind economically.
2. When you approached his base with that attack and saw the 3 spines, you should not have moved in. You could have set up a contain with bunkers and such while expanding and waiting for tank support since the spines aren't too useful for stopping that.
On a side note, he could have used roaches to do a similar attack earlier and it would have been harder to stop. It's also fairly safe to expect zerg to fast expand; if they don't that's a dead giveaway for an all-in of some sort. That expansion doesn't make zerg all that vulnerable so if you're going to try to punish them for it, you need something potent and planned.
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If you're going to play mech the first thing you should consider is how you can take advantage of terran mech on the map you are playing. You've shown a replay of Lost Temple, so the FIRST thing you should consider against a fast expand zerg is a tank or thor cliff drop (thor probably the better bet because it sometimes deters zerg from going muta). You tried a hellion push which will almost never work on maps like Lost Temple or Metalopolis, but will work beautifully on a map like Xel'Naga Caverns due to the many access/escape routes.
If you were to play a map with island starting locations, you (hopefully) wouldn't stick to the same build as you would on Lost Temple. Point is, EVERY map is exploited differently by terran mech; it's up to you to figure out how to use each map to your advantage.
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Lately I've been using mass marines with 1 ghost when doing an early rush/push, for the simple of reasons:
a) if I manage to kill all current combat units, I don't have to worry about 16 lings popping out to wipe the weakened marine bio-ball.
b) Force drones to stop mining.
c) accelerate the destruction of the hatch
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The strategy you choose or your execution or anything else doesn't really matter if you are gonna have 1100 mins and 800 gas like 9 minutes into the game... You lost cuz your macro was absolutely terrible (not saying ur bad) but this game you didn't produce well at all.
Your build should have you broke at all times (especially if you are trying to be aggressive), getting over 500 mins before 15 minutes is pretty in-excusable for high level players.
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(I dont see a way to harass zerg as T :/),
Whaaaaaaaa?
Anyway, if you're going to move out, go as fast as you can. EXCEPT WITH TANKS. The few seconds before a set of zerglings or spinecrawlers can morph to completion can be critical. especially true for hellions.
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1700 Diamond Terran from Czech Republic here :-). Main problem of your mech army is that is easily countered by mass roach and I know it cuz I played mech in TvZ a long time like mass blue hellion + mass Thors. U usually dont have so many tanks as u would feel confortable and if u get a good amount of them, few mutas eliminate them cuz u dont have so many thor :-(. There fore I started play only marrine / medevec / siege tank (vs baneling) with few thors in mineral line against few mutas. Marrine are awesome with stim and fast upgrades (you still wanna have armory for thors). BTW on lower level and good maps I went something like 3Rax but without Marauders, made 70 POP of marrines + fast stim and easily overwhelm my opponent, but on higher level (dunno like 1400+ dia or so) it doesnt work so good. You can PM me, we can talk in czech about the game ;-)
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So basically I always try to put up some agression, and when I see he started pumping units / spine crawlers I can just pull back and expand while preparing for a final doom-push?
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You saw spinecrawlers: he was scared, so he wasn't going to move out soon. Take map control (Xel'Naga) and expand. Don't let your macro slip and keep pumping units.
You should have added a starport for drops (you already had the blue hellions), medivacs are awesome and a great addition to the Terran army.
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On November 29 2010 05:42 QQmonster wrote:
you need a big economy to mech vs zerg so plan for the late game, 3 bases at least.
If you wait for 3 bases your opponent will have brood lords and/or ultras, which will likely lose you the game. I would push as he's getting hive, earlier if he has roach/hydra (as you will want to tank hop). Expand as you push. Broodlords are just amazing vs mech, and seige tanks will hit your own units attacking the broodling.
If you want a 200/200 army and can handle broodlords, then go for 3 bases, otherwise only need 2 and push around 130/200.
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EPT
