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On November 30 2010 12:45 mikell wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 12:34 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 30 2010 12:22 mikell wrote:On November 28 2010 19:13 mikell wrote:
.... obviously the best opening economy is 15/16/17/18 hatch. 14/15/16/17 pool. as i said in the third post. note after reading other threads, the only real difference between hatch first and pool first is flexibility. earlier queens make up for the difference in larvae production. seriously. why are you spending any time at all discussing this? economic openers lose to cheese. there are certain maps where you must play a certain way to obtain a 'safe' opener, unless you have completely perfect scouting you can discard all of these builds as inconclusive as there is no scientific way to take into account when and where you are being attacked, unless you are maphacking. protoss and terran react with early agression when you fast expand. i gaurentee something will make you react to that agression before 6 minutes. thus your entire experiment is pointless. larvae WILL be spent on something other than drones before 6 minutes, drones can be spent on spine crawlers, overlords may even be lost and you may end up supply capped. please, just stop. your 'number crunching' and 'comparing minerals mined' is in my eyes useless compared to the MUCH MORE USEFUL work put into EVOLUTION CHAMBER as you literally say to it "I WANT THIS AT THIS TIME" and it will tell you how to do it. optimally. if you want 44 drones at 6 minutes it will do it for you. if you want a hatchery at 16 as a checkpoint, it will do it for you. if you want zerglings at 6 minutes as well, it'll tell you when the optimal time is to build those zerglings without being supply capped. it is also obvious that there will be certain points where it is more economically beneficial to extractor trick and build that overlord 1 larvae later. just stop your bickering. half of these posts are by the OP. and i really don't think that such a question needs any thought beyond "hmm shakuras plateau, i think i want an economic build, i'll just build my hatchery at 16. " 1) What this thread is NOT for: Theorycrafting, claims without specific builds or replays, results from "optimizers" or testers, any strategy discussion including a build's safety, creep spread, hatch blocking, etc... We are only trying to deduce how to maximize economy to build a foundation for further discussion. I'm quite impressed you managed to include every one of them in there!  2) If you read the OP you would see one of the "economic openers" you refer to is an overpool build. Do overpools easily lose to cheese? 3) The builds that have so far been submitted by the "optimizers" such as evolution chamber are all behind. Are you going to trust a theory even if the results in practice have suggested it is wrong? The scientific method requires the TESTING of hypothesis, not blind faith. To be honest, posts like this baffle me. I always heard TL had the reputation of being very strict in regard to posting standards, but I see so much of this trolling and posts completely disregarding the OP... If you honestly think this is a waste of time, then why are you wasting your time by posting here? i am disregarding your op, and disregarding this entire thread, as holds the fact that in the game called starcraft 2, your economic theorycrafting is useless, as the game called starcraft 2 requires more than just macroing up. the game is fast paced, if you have ever played it, which i'm sure you have, i guarentee that playing reactively is a lot better than playing blind up until 6 minutes. if you are testing for builds that work up until 6 minutes and leave you with no units except for queens, that are easily destroyed by any builds to counter a fast expand, then feel free to continue testing this stuff. as it is worthless. also take note that despite the amount of views this thread has gotten, nobody will read it. no mean to personally attack you at all here, but your 'scientific method' and 'experiments' are not correcting, dismissing, or confirming anything. in zvt you will play defensively unless rushing. this does not involve macroing to your hearts content until 6 minutes without any zerglings/spinecrawlers/vigorous scouting. zvp can be the same, although the mid game is harder. i guarentee you will not beat a 4 gate with any economic build without a lot of zerglings or spine crawlers in production before 6 minutes. zvz is only an economic game if both play economically. everyone should know that in a zvz you will not make many drones unless you are feeling very arrogant.
Lol, you're just mad that you made an unintelligent remark and got flamed for it. The point of this thread is not to come up with the "best build" as that is impossible since there is no best build for all situations, but rather what build would you do if you are expecting a long macro game, and know you won't be attacked for an extended period of time (I've seen toss FE builds which don't attack until 10 minutes). What is the most economical build assuming you can focus entirely on economy? Blindly assuming that hatch before pool is "better just because everybody knows it is" is absurd, as if it really is better, then there ought to be evidence that indicates such is the case, which is what this thread is accomplishing.
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On November 30 2010 12:45 mikell wrote:
i am disregarding your op, and disregarding this entire thread, as holds the fact that in the game called starcraft 2, your economic theorycrafting is useless,
How is it fact that theorycrafting is useless? Please prove so.
On November 30 2010 12:45 mikell wrote: also take note that despite the amount of views this thread has gotten, nobody will read it.
Funny, I always thought view count had a direct correlation with amount of reads.
On November 30 2010 12:45 mikell wrote:
no mean to personally attack you at all here, but your 'scientific method' and 'experiments' are not correcting, dismissing, or confirming anything.
Actually, it is confirming something: the most economic build possible.
Does it have real world application? Maybe, maybe not.
Does it hurt to test something that may not have a definitive answer? Apparently to you, they're just wasting their time.
The rest of your nonsensical banter, I'll simply disregard it because not only isn't it annoying to read (Is your shift key broken?), but you feel like you can blindly put an argument and not read a rebuttal which you quoted (or even the original post for that matter).
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On November 30 2010 12:57 Hurkyl wrote:
If 16 hatch 15 pool mines 150 more minerals relative to 11 overpool 18 hatch when making all Drones up to 6 minutes... one would also expect it to have mined 150 more minerals at 6 minutes if you make 2 Spine Crawlers, 12 Zerglings, and mine gas from one Extractor.
no, no you wouldn't.
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On November 30 2010 13:00 mikell wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 12:57 Hurkyl wrote:
If 16 hatch 15 pool mines 150 more minerals relative to 11 overpool 18 hatch when making all Drones up to 6 minutes... one would also expect it to have mined 150 more minerals at 6 minutes if you make 2 Spine Crawlers, 12 Zerglings, and mine gas from one Extractor.
no, no you wouldn't.
And why not?
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Honestly.. 10 overpool 18 hatchery using spine crawlers to defend into mass burrow roaches is sooo dammnn powerful! holy shit..
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On November 30 2010 12:56 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 12:50 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
The lomilar build would be more efficient at 11 overlord (with extractor trick), 11 pool. You don't need the earlier overlord at 10 supply, as you have plenty of extra larvae when the pool goes down, so this gives the drone a few seconds more of mining. sigh....
sigh? 11 (extractor trick) overlord is more efficient for an 11 pool, period, what's your beef?
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The 16 hatch build isnt that intresting, its mostly what I know having played this game and tried various variations from 10 hatch - 20 hatch. Much more intresting is how close the 11 pool is to the 16 hatch build. The addition of the extra larva allows you to spend the extra minerals (that would have been spent on the hatch) early on and quickly saturate 2 bases rather then just 1. Very intresting.
Clearly if your going 11 pool you can always switch to quick lings if you need to.
The 11pool build is so intresting, I am wondering what peoples opionins are on a good transition out of it? Probably want to get 2-4 lings early to scout with. Im thinking a good late roach attack would be good, you can drop the roach warren using only minerals, drop 2 extracters, and then pump a lot of roaches very quickly. But when to start that transition? 30 food? 40?
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On November 30 2010 13:06 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 12:56 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 30 2010 12:50 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
The lomilar build would be more efficient at 11 overlord (with extractor trick), 11 pool. You don't need the earlier overlord at 10 supply, as you have plenty of extra larvae when the pool goes down, so this gives the drone a few seconds more of mining. sigh.... sigh? 11 extractor trick overlord is more efficient for an 11 pool, period, what's your beef?
I'm sorry, I thought you hadn't read the updated OP. Actually I just forgot to update the overlord timing.
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On November 30 2010 13:04 Hurkyl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 13:00 mikell wrote:On November 30 2010 12:57 Hurkyl wrote:
If 16 hatch 15 pool mines 150 more minerals relative to 11 overpool 18 hatch when making all Drones up to 6 minutes... one would also expect it to have mined 150 more minerals at 6 minutes if you make 2 Spine Crawlers, 12 Zerglings, and mine gas from one Extractor.
no, no you wouldn't. And why not?
different timings ensue. you would make 2 spine crawlers, 12 zerglings, and begin mining gas from extractors at different times. how is that not logical?
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On November 30 2010 13:08 mikell wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 13:04 Hurkyl wrote:On November 30 2010 13:00 mikell wrote:On November 30 2010 12:57 Hurkyl wrote:
If 16 hatch 15 pool mines 150 more minerals relative to 11 overpool 18 hatch when making all Drones up to 6 minutes... one would also expect it to have mined 150 more minerals at 6 minutes if you make 2 Spine Crawlers, 12 Zerglings, and mine gas from one Extractor.
no, no you wouldn't. And why not? different timings ensue that you would make 2 spine crawlers, 12 zerglings, and begin mining gas from extractors at different times. how is that not logical?
If I'm going for a particular opening, and just considering whether to start with overpool or hatchery, why would I do things at different times? Just because I make an early pool doesn't mean I have to rush with 12 Zerglings....
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Also, instead of making double overlords at 17,18, make your second queen sooner, and your second overlord later. The earlier overlord does you no good, (as a 23 overlord finishes in time without supply blocking) the earlier queen will give you more energy to either lay down a creep tumor, or have the queen ready to do a larva inject at the natural hatch as soon as it finishes.
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On November 30 2010 13:11 Hurkyl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 13:08 mikell wrote:On November 30 2010 13:04 Hurkyl wrote:On November 30 2010 13:00 mikell wrote:On November 30 2010 12:57 Hurkyl wrote:
If 16 hatch 15 pool mines 150 more minerals relative to 11 overpool 18 hatch when making all Drones up to 6 minutes... one would also expect it to have mined 150 more minerals at 6 minutes if you make 2 Spine Crawlers, 12 Zerglings, and mine gas from one Extractor.
no, no you wouldn't. And why not? different timings ensue that you would make 2 spine crawlers, 12 zerglings, and begin mining gas from extractors at different times. how is that not logical? If I'm going for a particular opening, and just considering whether to start with overpool or hatchery, why would I do things at different times? Just because I make an early pool doesn't mean I have to rush with 12 Zerglings....
again, you do not understand.
you see, you will not have 6 spare larvae on each build to make 12 zerglings at the very last second. which would be the 'most efficient' way however in either case you will have more or less drones at certain periods of time.
nobody is going to make 12 zerglings at once.
if you make zerglings as you feel it is most optimal to do so, say, for scouting purposes, and you make your spine crawlers as you see an impending attack, the amount of drones you will have mining will be different for a 16 hatch 15 pool or the overpool build. although you have the same drones around 6 minutes, you will not have the exact same larvae, or the exact same amount of drones mining at any given point in time. go into evolution chamber and prove this to yourself with the checkpoints of an overpool and a 16 hatch 15 pool and see if you end up with the same amount of minerals.
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On November 30 2010 13:17 mikell wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 13:11 Hurkyl wrote:On November 30 2010 13:08 mikell wrote:On November 30 2010 13:04 Hurkyl wrote:On November 30 2010 13:00 mikell wrote:On November 30 2010 12:57 Hurkyl wrote:
If 16 hatch 15 pool mines 150 more minerals relative to 11 overpool 18 hatch when making all Drones up to 6 minutes... one would also expect it to have mined 150 more minerals at 6 minutes if you make 2 Spine Crawlers, 12 Zerglings, and mine gas from one Extractor.
no, no you wouldn't. And why not? different timings ensue that you would make 2 spine crawlers, 12 zerglings, and begin mining gas from extractors at different times. how is that not logical? If I'm going for a particular opening, and just considering whether to start with overpool or hatchery, why would I do things at different times? Just because I make an early pool doesn't mean I have to rush with 12 Zerglings.... again, you do not understand. you see, you will not have 6 spare larvae on each build to make 12 zerglings at the very last second. which would be the 'most efficient' way however in either case you will have more or less drones at certain periods of time. nobody is going to make 12 zerglings at once. if you make zerglings as you feel it is most optimal to do so, say, for scouting purposes, and you make your spine crawlers as you see an impending attack, the amount of drones you will have mining will be different for a 16 hatch 15 pool or the overpool build. although you have the same drones around 6 minutes, you will not have the exact same larvae, or the exact same amount of drones mining at any given point in time. go into evolution chamber and prove this to yourself with the checkpoints of an overpool and a 16 hatch 15 pool and see if you end up with the same amount of minerals.
Guys, please, this is not the place for this discussion.
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wow 11 pool 18 hatch is better than 14 hatch 1X pool? never would have thought of that
#edit: great thread, thanks for your work
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Y'know, if mineral harvesting is really all you're interested in, then why bother with all this trouble trying to find a way to evaluate the worth of a drone? Just have all builds make 48 drones and mine for a bit. Cutting it off at 7:00 or 7:30 is probably long enough to have 48 drones and enough time for things to settle down.
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I've played around with 13 pool, 16 hatch some more, and can't do better than the OP.
A point to consider in its defense are that it ends on 6 minutes with a fair number of drones just starting (literally at 0/17), and it suffers much less from mineral oversaturation and the supply block at 18 when you get gas at about 200 minerals while saving for the hatch. That turns the build into a 13 pool, 16 gas, 15 hatch build. You can transfer drones into the completed extractor just as you have enough to start the queen.
Still, this was one of (if not the) build suggestion by EvolutionChamber. I'm curious as to what is causing the discrepency. It is not agreeing with real game testing, and this may be important for improving that program's accuracy.
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On November 30 2010 13:17 mikell wrote:
if you make zerglings as you feel it is most optimal to do so, say, for scouting purposes, and you make your spine crawlers as you see an impending attack, the amount of drones you will have mining will be different for a 16 hatch 15 pool or the overpool build. although you have the same drones around 6 minutes, you will not have the exact same larvae, or the exact same amount of drones mining at any given point in time. go into evolution chamber and prove this to yourself with the checkpoints of an overpool and a 16 hatch 15 pool and see if you end up with the same amount of minerals.
Why exactly does it bother you so much that the OP is carrying out this experiment?
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13 Pool 16 Hatch seems really solid. The best part is that if you scout the 6 pool you can actually make lings RIGHT on time. A little drone micro and you won't lose any since they will pop at just the right time. Yeah, that will delay your expansion, but you can just push and win now.
Though the 11 pool looks interesting.
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Right, why Xelnaga when EU has no YABOT for it? Am I supposed to start-restart until I get the bottom spawn? sighity sigh. Giving the build soon
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Been using the 11 pool 18 hatch for the last 8 games, I lost 2 to Terran all-in SCVs..
Try it, you have to.
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EPT
