EPTPutting an end to the Zerg Opening Economy debate. - Page 7
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
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BnK
United States538 Posts
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On November 30 2010 09:37 Fenam wrote: Just playing around with the sc2calc build order calculator I came up with 14 Hatch 15 Pool being the best (beating out both later hatch firsts and all the pool firsts I tried. The calculator has a few flaws, like splitting drones evenly between hatcheries but not accounting for the travel time from where they're produced to when they go to the second hatchery. I think it still gives a strong outline though. It turns out overlord timing can be pretty important, and can have a sizable impact on the end result. That's something that will have to be fine tuned with these builds. I played around with it and I feel like I have it set pretty good. Another thing I liked about this build is that queens are synced up almost perfectly (3 seconds apart) You should try testing this one in game and see how it works out. http://tinyurl.com/37jhkhw The results from this test have slightly higher resource count, but too few drones to qualify. The overlord timing of 42 seems off, as some time was spent supply capped at 44/44... This is a problem I think with some of these programs... They maximize one aspect of the economy at a specific time, often at the expense of another. If you would like me to test a different overlord timing, please suggest one. However, creating the overlord earlier would of course result in a later drone, therefore reducing the slight mining edge. It seems many of these Hatch X Pool X +1 builds are very similar. I am interested in testing how similar, and if perhaps an earlier hatch than any presently suggested would yield similar economy. This would help satisfy those who think hatch first is presently too risky, much less 16 hatch... | ||
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Dakaru
Netherlands59 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 9 overlord 14 pool (finishes @ 2:56) 16 hatch (finishes @ 4:20) 15 queen (larva inject on main then move to natural) 18 overlord extractor trick 22 queen (right after first finishes) 24 overlord 32 overlord 35 overlord Drones: 41 + 15/17 = 41.88 Overlords: 6 Resources Mined: 4050 + 784 = 4834 Queen Energy: 21 + 24 = 45 Remaining Larva: 3 might be possible to get better results as I'm sure I've made a few small mistakes (as I don't play zerg) aswell as slightly oversaturating my main ps: didn't micro my drones just waypoint to one patch on each hatch | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On November 30 2010 11:40 Dakaru wrote: I went playing arround a little (as I dont play zerg as main) and I got these results after a couple of tries: + Show Spoiler + 9 overlord 14 pool (finishes @ 2:56) 16 hatch (finishes @ 4:20) 15 queen (larva inject on main then move to natural) 18 overlord extractor trick 22 queen (right after first finishes) 24 overlord 32 overlord 35 overlord Drones: 41 + 15/17 = 41.88 Overlords: 6 Resources Mined: 4050 + 784 = 4834 Queen Energy: 21 + 24 = 45 Remaining Larva: 3 might be possible to get better results as I'm sure I've made a few small mistakes (as I don't play zerg) aswell as slightly oversaturating my main ps: didn't micro my drones just waypoint to one patch on each hatch I can't seem to reproduce these results... If you could provide a replay of them I would appreciate it. My last test was Drones: 40 + 37/17 = 42.17 Resources: 4000 + 610 = 4610 These results are close to the Phrencys build results which is similar. The last replay that had resources in the 4800 range was rallying drones to individual patches, so perhaps that accounts for the discrepancy? | ||
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Sanasante
United States321 Posts
It depends. The depending factors are based upon time and saturation points. If you extend the length of the build then clearly one would conclude that 43 drones is superior to 40, however this is all relative to saturation point. There are 8 mineral nodes typically per expansion. At 16 drones per the expansion the minerals are saturated. At 24 drones the minerals are fully saturated. The difference in income between 16 and 24 gives serious diminishing returns. These trials must then also account for the number of drones per expansion to make sure that the trials were conducted properly. If they were not aka one expansion had more drones than the other the trials will result in incomparable results. The difficulty also lies in possible transfer (Maynarding) time between expansions. Conclusion: You can value the drone at its fair value (50 minerals) and include opportunity cost (the amount of minerals possibly mined in the time to produce the drone), however you are missing a few things. - Time it takes to produce the difference in drones. If one build has 40 and another has 43 then the difference needs to include the larva spawn times. One drone may mine for 30 seconds the second drone can mine for 15 and the third has just spawned and has not provided any addition income. -Diminishing returns from the difference in workers. Because of the high saturation points (Past 36) there are serious diminishing returns per drone of minerals mined. These must be accounted for. -Location and travel distance of drone. If the new drone produced has to move from the main to the expansion due to the main being fully saturated then this cost of travel time must be included along with the diminishing returns from that expansion. -Map. Not all maps have the same travel distance from the main to the expansion. Therefore all trials must be conduced on the same map. | ||
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Drenova
United States2 Posts
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Dakaru
Netherlands59 Posts
results: Drones: 42 + 24/17 = 43.41 Overlords: 6 Resources Mined: 4200 + 545 = 4745 Queen Energy: 21 + 25 = 46 Remaining Larva: 0 + Show Spoiler + 9 overlord 14 pool 16 hatch 15 queen 17 overlord 22 queen 24 overlord 32 overlord 35 overlord ps: the main difference with phrency's build is 22 queen instead of 20 and 24 overlord instead of 20 | ||
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mikell
Australia352 Posts
On November 28 2010 19:13 mikell wrote: .... obviously the best opening economy is 15/16/17/18 hatch. 14/15/16/17 pool. as i said in the third post. note after reading other threads, the only real difference between hatch first and pool first is flexibility. earlier queens make up for the difference in larvae production. seriously. why are you spending any time at all discussing this? economic openers lose to cheese. there are certain maps where you must play a certain way to obtain a 'safe' opener, unless you have completely perfect scouting you can discard all of these builds as inconclusive as there is no scientific way to take into account when and where you are being attacked, unless you are maphacking. protoss and terran react with early agression when you fast expand. i gaurentee something will make you react to that agression before 6 minutes. thus your entire experiment is pointless. larvae WILL be spent on something other than drones before 6 minutes, drones can be spent on spine crawlers, overlords may even be lost and you may end up supply capped. please, just stop. your 'number crunching' and 'comparing minerals mined' is in my eyes useless compared to the MUCH MORE USEFUL work put into EVOLUTION CHAMBER as you literally say to it "I WANT THIS AT THIS TIME" and it will tell you how to do it. optimally. if you want 44 drones at 6 minutes it will do it for you. if you want a hatchery at 16 as a checkpoint, it will do it for you. if you want zerglings at 6 minutes as well, it'll tell you when the optimal time is to build those zerglings without being supply capped. it is also obvious that there will be certain points where it is more economically beneficial to extractor trick and build that overlord 1 larvae later. just stop your bickering. half of these posts are by the OP. and i really don't think that such a question needs any thought beyond "hmm shakuras plateau, i think i want an economic build, i'll just build my hatchery at 16. " | ||
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
On November 30 2010 12:22 mikell wrote:i really don't think that such a question needs any thought beyond "hmm shakuras plateau, i think i want an economic build, i'll just build my hatchery at 16. " Is 16 really better than 14? That's a question that needs answered, rather than just assumed. What if I want the most larvae out of my opening rather than the most minerals? The right way to do that needs to be answered, rather than just assumed. The conventional wisdom on this question is way off-base anyways. While I agree that this thread is doing things poorly, this sort of theorycrafting really is useful when done right. | ||
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
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B34ST
United Kingdom150 Posts
On a brighter note, I just used 10 overpool 18 hatch against a terran, quad extractors at once and went mass burrow roaches.. holy shit, I never knew they were so powerful. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On November 30 2010 12:22 mikell wrote: as i said in the third post. note after reading other threads, the only real difference between hatch first and pool first is flexibility. earlier queens make up for the difference in larvae production. seriously. why are you spending any time at all discussing this? economic openers lose to cheese. there are certain maps where you must play a certain way to obtain a 'safe' opener, unless you have completely perfect scouting you can discard all of these builds as inconclusive as there is no scientific way to take into account when and where you are being attacked, unless you are maphacking. protoss and terran react with early agression when you fast expand. i gaurentee something will make you react to that agression before 6 minutes. thus your entire experiment is pointless. larvae WILL be spent on something other than drones before 6 minutes, drones can be spent on spine crawlers, overlords may even be lost and you may end up supply capped. please, just stop. your 'number crunching' and 'comparing minerals mined' is in my eyes useless compared to the MUCH MORE USEFUL work put into EVOLUTION CHAMBER as you literally say to it "I WANT THIS AT THIS TIME" and it will tell you how to do it. optimally. if you want 44 drones at 6 minutes it will do it for you. if you want a hatchery at 16 as a checkpoint, it will do it for you. if you want zerglings at 6 minutes as well, it'll tell you when the optimal time is to build those zerglings without being supply capped. it is also obvious that there will be certain points where it is more economically beneficial to extractor trick and build that overlord 1 larvae later. just stop your bickering. half of these posts are by the OP. and i really don't think that such a question needs any thought beyond "hmm shakuras plateau, i think i want an economic build, i'll just build my hatchery at 16. " 1) What this thread is NOT for: Theorycrafting, claims without specific builds or replays, results from "optimizers" or testers, any strategy discussion including a build's safety, creep spread, hatch blocking, etc... We are only trying to deduce how to maximize economy to build a foundation for further discussion. I'm quite impressed you managed to include every one of them in there!  2) If you read the OP you would see one of the "economic openers" you refer to is an overpool build. Do overpools easily lose to cheese? 3) The builds that have so far been submitted by the "optimizers" such as evolution chamber are all behind. Are you going to trust a theory even if the results in practice have suggested it is wrong? The scientific method requires the TESTING of hypothesis, not blind faith. To be honest, posts like this baffle me. I always heard TL had the reputation of being very strict in regard to posting standards, but I see so much of this trolling and posts completely disregarding the OP... If you honestly think this is a waste of time, then why are you wasting your time by posting here? | ||
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SoftSoap
United States170 Posts
On November 30 2010 12:32 B34ST wrote: Trying so hard not to flame your ass right now.. On a brighter note, I just used 10 overpool 18 hatch against a terran, quad extractors at once and went mass burrow roaches.. holy shit, I never knew they were so powerful. Obviously that terran wasn't so good if he didn't have a counter against mass roaches. | ||
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obsid
United States389 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
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mikell
Australia352 Posts
On November 30 2010 12:34 jdseemoreglass wrote: 1) I'm quite impressed you managed to include every one of them in there! 2) If you read the OP you would see one of the "economic openers" you refer to is an overpool build. Do overpools easily lose to cheese? 3) The builds that have so far been submitted by the "optimizers" such as evolution chamber are all behind. Are you going to trust a theory even if the results in practice have suggested it is wrong? The scientific method requires the TESTING of hypothesis, not blind faith. To be honest, posts like this baffle me. I always heard TL had the reputation of being very strict in regard to posting standards, but I see so much of this trolling and posts completely disregarding the OP... If you honestly think this is a waste of time, then why are you wasting your time by posting here? i am disregarding your op, and disregarding this entire thread, as holds the fact that in the game called starcraft 2, your economic theorycrafting is useless, as the game called starcraft 2 requires more than just macroing up. the game is fast paced, if you have ever played it, which i'm sure you have, i guarentee that playing reactively is a lot better than playing blind up until 6 minutes. if you are testing for builds that work up until 6 minutes and leave you with no units except for queens, that are easily destroyed by any builds to counter a fast expand, then feel free to continue testing this stuff. as it is worthless. also take note that despite the amount of views this thread has gotten, nobody will read it. no mean to personally attack you at all here, but your 'scientific method' and 'experiments' are not correcting, dismissing, or confirming anything. in zvt you will play defensively unless rushing. this does not involve macroing to your hearts content until 6 minutes without any zerglings/spinecrawlers/vigorous scouting. zvp can be the same, although the mid game is harder. i guarentee you will not beat a 4 gate with any economic build without a lot of zerglings or spine crawlers in production before 6 minutes. zvz is only an economic game if both play economically. everyone should know that in a zvz you will not make many drones unless you are feeling very arrogant. | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On November 30 2010 12:50 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: The lomilar build would be more efficient at 11 overlord (with extractor trick), 11 pool. You don't need the earlier overlord at 10 supply, as you have plenty of extra larvae when the pool goes down, so this gives the drone a few seconds more of mining. Ok thanks, I didn't realize I forgot the change the 10 to an 11. The replay and results are the same. | ||
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
On November 30 2010 12:45 mikell wrote:no mean to personally attack you at all here, but your 'scientific method' and 'experiments' are not correcting, dismissing, or confirming anything. in zvt you will play defensively unless rushing. this does not involve macroing to your hearts content until 6 minutes without any zerglings/spinecrawlers/vigorous scouting. Did you ever stop to think that the results of such tests could be relevant to a real game? If 16 hatch 15 pool mines 150 more minerals relative to 11 overpool 18 hatch when making all Drones up to 6 minutes... one would also expect it to have mined 150 more minerals at 6 minutes if you make 2 Spine Crawlers, 12 Zerglings, and mine gas from one Extractor. It's good to know the price of choosing the overpool build instead of the hatch first build. (or whichever other build you want to use) It would also be nice to know the benefits to unit count, but the OP is not counting that. (but it is less relevant to openings where production capacity exceeds income) | ||
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