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On November 30 2010 16:35 Hurkyl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 16:30 tehV wrote:On November 30 2010 16:16 30to1 wrote:
The real answer is this:
Instead of having a single finish line at 6 minutes, what you should do is have 3 finish lines at 5, 6, and 7. The build that performs best across multiple time periods should be the winner (as in real game, it would allow for the most flexibility while still maxing out economy).
I would just compare raw minerals mined at each time point, absolutely nothing else
I find your finish lines completely arbitrary that, why not finish lines at 1, 2, 3, and/or 4 also? The OP wants the best economic opener, not the best economic opener that is also the best at 5,6,and7 minutes. And stopping around 7 minutes is obviously to short as Lomilar's drone advantage wont show up till closer to 8 minutes. His 6 minute mark is obviously just a simplification to help test the best economic opener. If you wanted to remove this time limit nonsense, all you need to do is redefine the problem as the best economic opener is the one that fully mines out a specific map the fastest. Have fun doing that manually. Going to 6 minutes, noting the drone differences, etc.. and extrapolating from there is probably 'good' enough. If you limit yourself to mining out two bases, you don't have to do anything with "drone differences". At 7:00 or 7:30 or so, all builds considered will have 48 Drones, which (I believe) gives the maximum mining rate. So you just have note how many minerals are mined at that point in time. Well, I guess this approach ignores the effects of when the mineral patches vanish. (but so does what you suggest). It could be accounted for, though, if anyone really cared.
Well now this is a debate over how to define the best economic opener. I'd argue that it should be the fastest to mine out your 'half' of the map. Yours seems to be, first to mine out your main and natural.
I think I'd grant that Lomilar's build reaches the 2-base saturation point later, thus wont mine out those bases as fast. But would probably win the more than 2 base 'race'.
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On November 30 2010 16:33 tehV wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 16:24 Hurkyl wrote:On November 30 2010 16:10 tehV wrote:So its 155 minerals vs 2.58 drones.
As long as Lomilar stays 2.58 drones ahead, he should catch up on the mineral metric, in ~1.5 minutes. You are assuming infinitely many mineral patches. At 6:00 both builds are nearly totally saturated, the next few Drones will barely increase the mining rate. After 48 drones, remaining 2.58 drones ahead is a total waste of 129 minerals. (Also, the "Drones" line in the opening post is not a good estimate of how many Drones ahead each build will be, on average) We don't need to assume infinitely many mineral patches, but zergs like to get a 3rd base right? Do zergs stop naturally in game at 48 drones? Lomilar's drones will be an economic advantage, I don't see how you get around that.
AFAIK, Zergs with two fully saturated bases wait until they actually have a third base before building the Drones for it.
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On November 30 2010 16:43 Hurkyl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 16:33 tehV wrote:On November 30 2010 16:24 Hurkyl wrote:On November 30 2010 16:10 tehV wrote:So its 155 minerals vs 2.58 drones.
As long as Lomilar stays 2.58 drones ahead, he should catch up on the mineral metric, in ~1.5 minutes. You are assuming infinitely many mineral patches. At 6:00 both builds are nearly totally saturated, the next few Drones will barely increase the mining rate. After 48 drones, remaining 2.58 drones ahead is a total waste of 129 minerals. (Also, the "Drones" line in the opening post is not a good estimate of how many Drones ahead each build will be, on average) We don't need to assume infinitely many mineral patches, but zergs like to get a 3rd base right? Do zergs stop naturally in game at 48 drones? Lomilar's drones will be an economic advantage, I don't see how you get around that. AFAIK, Zergs with two fully saturated bases wait until they actually have a third base before building the Drones for it.
That could be true, but that wouldn't be economic play. I only meant to imply there is more than 2 bases, thus you can't ignore his drone advantage. At least when limited to the economic question.
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Afaik the Flexibility and safeness of having an 11pool as default whilst still being incredibly economic is being so horribly overlooked here.
For an 11pool build being even close to a 14/15/16 pool build in terms of economy is amazing. Getting that pool over a minute faster is also of very high value
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On a slight tangent, I admit it would be nice to have an optimized triple hatch build prepared for dealing with 15 Nexus openings on Shakuras Plateau. 
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Why is 14 Hatch/15 Pool being disregarded as a potential leader? Until we've clarified what exactly constitutes winning I would think that the total resource leader should be kept in contention.
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On November 30 2010 16:47 Scrimpton wrote:
Afaik the Flexibility and safeness of having an 11pool as default whilst still being incredibly economic is being so horribly overlooked here.
For an 11pool build being even close to a 14/15/16 pool build in terms of economy is amazing. Getting that pool over a minute faster is also of very high value
It's being overlooked because that isn't the point of the thread. We are looking solely at the economy, not at the other aspects of the game. While I agree that it is rather amazing, it doesn't matter when looking only at the resources.
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On November 30 2010 16:47 Hurkyl wrote:On a slight tangent, I admit it would be nice to have an optimized triple hatch build prepared for dealing with 15 Nexus openings on Shakuras Plateau.
This actually might be the way to go.
Define the economic openers based on # of bases, instead of by time.
For example, I hear zergs complain about Jungle Basin and getting a 3rd on that map. So knowing which opener is the best for economic 2-base play. And for your suggestion on SP, would give us the build that gets the best economic opener assuming 3-base play.
I don't play zerg, but I imagine breaking it down this way is useful, even the best 1 base play for a map like steppes might be useful.
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On November 30 2010 16:47 Melancholia wrote:
Why is 14 Hatch/15 Pool being disregarded as a potential leader? Until we've clarified what exactly constitutes winning I would think that the total resource leader should be kept in contention.
I believe 14 hatch/14 pool beats 14h/15p, 15h/14p, 15h/15p, and 16h/15p by a *slight* margin, likely due to faster queens. They all seem to be pretty damn close. I only tested the various builds a couple times though, and might not have them perfectly down anyway, so take that with a grain of salt, and test it yourself if you really care. The only result that matters is yours anyway.
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Everyone is bringing up some pretty interesting points... I think my next step is to extend the sampling time to various points to see if perhaps I underestimated the length of time required to overcome the initial investment of the second hatchery. However, my suspicion is that this will merely delay the same problem of more drones vs more minerals. No way of knowing of course until it is tested. I will begin with this tomorrow afternoon.
I have also been thinking a lot about the notion of "opportunity cost" in relation to drones. A drone could easily also be a roach, or a roach warren. The flexibility of choice that a larva gives the user could perhaps be worth something that I can't quantify. Of course, the same argument could be made for minerals... but the idea is that a single larva has the option of using differing AMOUNTS of minerals in very different ways.
I am hoping people really start stretching the limits of what is possible with these submissions. I have been interested in seeing very early hatches or very late pools tested. What about comparing the effects of a 13/13 build to a 17/17 build? Also, I think we can still squeeze some efficiency out of the 11overpool. Let's keep up the good content.
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On November 30 2010 16:47 Melancholia wrote:
Why is 14 Hatch/15 Pool being disregarded as a potential leader? Until we've clarified what exactly constitutes winning I would think that the total resource leader should be kept in contention.
We can't define overall economy by such a simple metric. For example, I saw one build using an optimizer that led all the others in resources mined... but it left us supply blocked with only 4 overlords. I think the additional 2 drones more than makes up for the 55 fewer minerals in either case.
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On November 30 2010 17:05 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 16:47 Melancholia wrote:
Why is 14 Hatch/15 Pool being disregarded as a potential leader? Until we've clarified what exactly constitutes winning I would think that the total resource leader should be kept in contention. We can't define overall economy by such a simple metric. For example, I saw one build using an optimizer that led all the others in resources mined... but it left us supply blocked with only 4 overlords. I think the additional 2 drones more than makes up for the 55 fewer minerals in either case.
I'd agree that we shouldn't use such a simple metric, but at the moment we don't appear to have any metric, and until that point it's premature to put ANY builds in the "Current Leader" category.
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On November 30 2010 17:08 Melancholia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 17:05 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 30 2010 16:47 Melancholia wrote:
Why is 14 Hatch/15 Pool being disregarded as a potential leader? Until we've clarified what exactly constitutes winning I would think that the total resource leader should be kept in contention. We can't define overall economy by such a simple metric. For example, I saw one build using an optimizer that led all the others in resources mined... but it left us supply blocked with only 4 overlords. I think the additional 2 drones more than makes up for the 55 fewer minerals in either case. I'd agree that we shouldn't use such a simple metric, but at the moment we don't appear to have any metric, and until that point it's premature to put ANY builds in the "Current Leader" category.
The two most weighted metrics as stated in the OP are drones and resources mined. The trouble is equating the value of the two in a relative way. That is why I am trying to compute the value of an additional drone in minerals, because without this mathematical comparison it is merely a subjective assessment.
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On November 30 2010 17:14 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 17:08 Melancholia wrote:On November 30 2010 17:05 jdseemoreglass wrote:On November 30 2010 16:47 Melancholia wrote:
Why is 14 Hatch/15 Pool being disregarded as a potential leader? Until we've clarified what exactly constitutes winning I would think that the total resource leader should be kept in contention. We can't define overall economy by such a simple metric. For example, I saw one build using an optimizer that led all the others in resources mined... but it left us supply blocked with only 4 overlords. I think the additional 2 drones more than makes up for the 55 fewer minerals in either case. I'd agree that we shouldn't use such a simple metric, but at the moment we don't appear to have any metric, and until that point it's premature to put ANY builds in the "Current Leader" category. The two most weighted metrics as stated in the OP are drones and resources mined. The trouble is equating the value of the two in a relative way. That is why I am trying to compute the value of an additional drone in minerals, because without this mathematical comparison it is merely a subjective assessment.
Rather than what you can measure, what, precisely, is it you want to measure? Maybe if you can answer that, the way to proceed would be more clear.
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Okay. I have taken this build to the next level of silliness:
Double extractor trick @ 10 & 110 minerals
12 Overpool
16 OL (no really)
18 Queen
Send drone to hatch at 190 minerals
18 Hatch
21 Queen (should start right as previous queen finishes and you have minerals)
23 Overlord (should finish right as eggs pop)
29 Overlord
Maynard 8 drones at 30 (this should be when hatch pops)
Overlord at 37
This build ends up feeling a lot different.
Here is what I ended up with at 6 minutes:
38 drones
2 drones at 17/17 seconds (essentially 40 drones)
1 drone 9/17 seconds
1 drone 5/17 seconds
4 drones 3/17 seconds (that is for a total of 8 drones in production)
Queens at 5 & 24 energy, spawn larvas at 5/40 and 19/40
6 overlords
293 minerals
50/52 supply
<edit>
Total larva: 38+8+6+2=54
I noticed that the number of larva this build makes is offset from the single extractor trick, which gets 43+2+6+2=53 larva and both vomits at 20/40 seconds. So... that's not significant.
</edit>
Thing (just one) to work out: You almost start the queen immediately after the previous one. Which one should go to the expo?
The Keanu Reeves things about this build.
This build completely avoids ever having 3 larva on your hatchery, except when eggs pop.
This build never gets supply blocked, except for the extractor trick.
Moar minerals.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-170110.jpg)
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Lominar. I just dont know how to think any more.
What is an earth
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think the most accurate would be to show a resource graph; total larvae produced; and hatches and queen count. all this is really telling me is what builds get you a certain econ at time X. i dont know which is most economical. the graph seems to be suggesting that 11 pool is the highest but that certainly wouldnt get you a very good econ for the next couple minutes and then you have to consider how much larvae u need at what times.
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jdseemoreglass:
I'm not sure how you get consistent results between builds, but what I did was save a game where I droned until 9, then re-loaded that same game for each different build I wanted to test so that any differences in initial split-time/response-time did not exist. I also put the game on normal speed so I could macro/micro perfectly.
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I think the trickoverpool fast expand... Hey, its all the builds in one!
Anyway, I think it is generally stronger economy wise and military wise early on (earlier pool, earlier lings, earlier queen), but it doesn't get as many drones up at the second base as quickly, and that is where it is losing minerals compared to the 15 hatch build.
I've named it. The TOP-FE build. It even sounds pretentious! Yeah!
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On November 30 2010 17:26 Lomilar wrote:
Okay. I have taken this build to the next level of silliness:
Here is what I ended up with at 6 minutes:
38 drones
2 drones at 17/17 seconds (essentially 40 drones)
1 drone 9/17 seconds
1 drone 5/17 seconds
4 drones 3/17 seconds (that is for a total of 8 drones in production)
Queens at 5 & 24 energy, spawn larvas at 5/40 and 19/40
6 overlords
293 minerals
50/52 supply
That's pretty significantly behind everything I tried, by at least a couple hundred minerals, and slightly behind on larvae as well. 14h/14p has been my best so far, with 40 drones, 30/17 total on 6 drones in production, and just over 600 minerals.
Looks like you probably just were slow on a spawn somewhere for the larva count, though, with one queen having 24 energy but it's spawn only being half-done.
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EPT
