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A build I've been messing around with.
Hard countered by -
4 gate
Soft Counter -
Fast 3 gate blink stalkers
Counter to -
Everything else it seems 
Rough build order :
9 pylon
13 gate
15 gas
17 pylon
17 cyber
19 zealot
chrono out 2 stalkers
nexus
If you think he's gonna be putting early pressure on you throw down 3x more gates, if not, 2x more gates + robo
2nd gas
add on 4-5 stalkers
start twilight council
get blink+ observer, harass whenever you get the chance, prorities are robo bay, colossi, and nexus's, if he gets too many colos up you will be screwed. You have to do damage, and constantly threaten to blink in for it to work.
If you've done all the harassment you can, and it's not going to kill him, switch to DT's + phoenix + observers
Few replays...
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-161635.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-160578.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-160579.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-154414.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-154413.jpg)
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You and your FE's/hidden FE's = P
Will check out the replays when i get a chance, loved your old blink stalker build where you hid the FE, hoping this will be no different.
What would be the difference between the 2 gate hidden FE and this new 1 gate FE besides being a bit more risky against 4 gate?
Thanks for the strat.
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On November 19 2010 06:27 justinsroy wrote:
You and your FE's/hidden FE's = P
Will check out the replays when i get a chance, loved your old blink stalker build where you hid the FE, hoping this will be no different.
What would be the difference between the 2 gate hidden FE and this new 1 gate FE besides being a bit more risky against 4 gate?
Thanks for the strat.
Basically all that has changed is my micro/macro is better, no need to hide the nexus anymore .
I realized the 2 gate fe, one gate isn't really even being used, so there's no point in it.
Aka the 1 gate fe!
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Not sure how usable this would be to me. Seems like most PvP I play the enemy goes either 4gate or 3gate blink
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Thank you for the quick reply Minigun, and i must semi-agree with the above poster, i think that most of the people are going 4 gate on ladder.
I asked Taurent about this build, and he suggested it; after he utterly stomped me during a tournament (i think esl, not 100% sure though) and he told me against a 34 gate pressure build, just to let them beat on your nexus for a bit while the other 3 gates are finishing/morphing.
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looks really promising, but yea it's really too bad 4 gate is very popular these days...
A 3 gate robo (2 immortal timing push) takes this down btw unless u have godly godly godly godly micro.
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On November 19 2010 06:47 Antimage wrote:
looks really promising, but yea it's really too bad 4 gate is very popular these days...
A 3 gate robo (2 immortal timing push) takes this down btw unless u have godly godly godly godly micro.
Maybe on steps of war, but it seems I have enough time to prepare for this push once I see him push out. I save my chronos for warpgates until I know what they are doing.
On November 19 2010 06:41 justinsroy wrote:
Thank you for the quick reply Minigun, and i must semi-agree with the above poster, i think that most of the people are going 4 gate on ladder.
I asked Taurent about this build, and he suggested it; after he utterly stomped me during a tournament (i think esl, not 100% sure though) and he told me against a 34 gate pressure build, just to let them beat on your nexus for a bit while the other 3 gates are finishing/morphing.
Yeah if you scout wrong, or just feel like trying it vs a 4 gate, that's the best advice.
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I actually agree that 1 gate FE is a pretty good build, but the whole problem of using it on the ladder is this:
On November 19 2010 06:24 Minigun wrote:Hard countered by - 4 gate Soft Counter -Fast 3 gate blink stalkers Counter to - Everything else it seems
And coincidently the most popular builds are 3 gate blink stalkers or 4 gate. I always try to incorporate builds that has fast expansions in them, but it seems like I must accept the inevitable and do something like 3 gate expand, because the other builds just outright die or outright win. Sadly PvP is basicly coinflips.
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On November 19 2010 06:47 Antimage wrote:
looks really promising, but yea it's really too bad 4 gate is very popular these days...
A 3 gate robo (2 immortal timing push) takes this down btw unless u have godly godly godly godly micro.
Good forcefields hold immortal pushes really easily. You just have to be active with your stalkers so that you know it's coming and can pick where to fight.
Minigun, have you tried gate -> core -> twilight -> blink -> nexus? I haven't worked on it much, but if you get an early sentry, you'd be able to hold a 4-gate by forcefielding and getting DTs. I believe you'd also get blink early enough to pick off some free units against robo and expand builds. You'd need great game sense and forcefields to hold a DT rush tho.
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Hard countered by -
4 gate
Im like 2200ish protoss and 70% of my pvps are either 4 gate, blink play or some kind of cheese :s
How much succes have you had with the build on the ladder? 
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Most people scout this and still go colossi(even saw incontrol make this mistake) while I feel like immortal pushes are just so much better vs this.
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I've seen some variations of this more than a few times @ ~1800-1900 diamond in terms of a very quick FE (the transitions from that have varied). I've seen some where they go 2-gate zealot pressure into FE, hoping for you to turtle up after you defend their push to give them time for their expo to go up.
The first time someone tried it on me I was caught by surprise because I was expecting korean WG or 4-gate due to the late 2nd gas, but since then I've easily been able to scout it. The interesting thing about the early pressure into FE is not whether how easy you can scout it though, it is IMO more about who has better multi-tasking b/w micro/macro as while the 2-gate pressure is easy enough to survive if you're bad at multi-tasking and didn't keep up with your macro and teching you'll still lose because they now have an expo.
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You're slowly convincing me this is awesome. Going to try and practice it tonight and mess with it before I post more about it. You already know how I feel it is an uphill battle though. :/
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I've seen other people do 1 gate expands as well. It mostly works well against cautious people that are afraid of DTs and thus go robo. Robo timings are too late to stop it it seems.
How can 3/4 gate be the most popular, isn't that an insta-lose to DT?
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Just used this twice (I think) on mid level plat and won pretty convincingly against 3gate robo. Awesome build!
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This build seems almost nearly exactly like the 1 Gate FE in PvT. I like this immensely. I'm only scared of Korean 4 gates, but that's so easy to scout, and I think the early 2 stalks would help defend with micro. I'll have to try to this out.
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I'm excited to try this. I have been using the 13/19 2gate expand that you proposed earlier. It appears the early 3 stalkers keep him in his base on the defense for long enough to cover the vulnerability while the nexus builds (army 400 minerals behind his in size and/or tech).
This might be worthwhile to try simply to practice a build that depends on micro to hang on and macro to push back hard!
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I'm not really able to make this build work.. I can't defend against any early aggression with it ever. I feel like the robo and council on one base plus the expansion makes you have much fewer units then you should and very vulnerable to early agression. What's the best way to defend quick pushes?
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I try to use this build as much as I can. It's great. Downside is most of my pvp these days are very agressive 4 gates (2k diamond range).
I would also mention maps with large cliffs to abuse is great (LT, metal, etc). I avoid it on steppes cause their army is right next to the only cliff...making it almost impossible to effectively harass.
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On November 20 2010 04:06 Noak3 wrote:
I'm not really able to make this build work.. I can't defend against any early aggression with it ever. I feel like the robo and council on one base plus the expansion makes you have much fewer units then you should and very vulnerable to early agression. What's the best way to defend quick pushes?
It dies against 4-gate. There's not much you can do. Against other pressure, it helps to be aggressive with your first stalkers. If you're chronoboosting your stalkers instead of warpgate tech, you can usually take early map control with just one gate. Taking map control early slows down 3-gate and early robo pushes because it delays setting up their proxy pylon.
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I do a gate cyber forge FE in PvP on some maps
a couple well placed cannons allow you to hold off 4 gate (you 4 gate urself but ur 4 gate is a tad behind)
you can then follow up with either 6 gate or even 4 gate 2 robo.
the cannons allow you to FE and beat 4 gate as well as protects you from DT rush.
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The problem I have with a FE build like this is scouting.
How exactly DO you know they are not going 3 gate blink stalker or 4 gate? I'd say both are about the most popular builds there are and I find it pretty hard to exclude each with scouting.
4 gate is usually 1 gas or a late 2nd gas so in that sense they are not too hard to scout, ie. if they don't get a 2nd gas quickly you can generally put them on a 4 gate like build.
The problem is even if I were to only do this build against builds that get 2 gas quickly it can still be blink stalkers (or even DT's or a slightly different 4 gate build). Blink stalkers generally puts down the council just 10 secs after they get their first stalker out so you're scout will generally not see it.
How do you plan on knowing this build is safe? Or do you just do it whenever you see 2 gas and just hope to get by with better micro & macro against 3 gate blink stalker?? In my experience playing blink stalker or playing against it there is almost no way to distinguish a blink stalker build from a robo build and generally I think a good blink stalker player has a fairly easy time against this build. You will probably have 1 less stalker then the blink stalker player and he has a very easy time microing, as long as he gets up the proxy pylon close enough he shouldnt really have trouble beating this imo.
The replays I checked didn't really give me an answer to this either, it seemed like you sort of blind guessed that it wouldn't be blink stalkers. Perhaps you knew the players or just got lucky or is there some hidden scouting trick that I don't know off?
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Well I don't really have anything to add since the other thread.
You forget to mention dt opening from opponent.
3gate forge is a fine build as well. detection, good vs gateway units, does not take up psi.
You don't mention probe production. Safest to cut ~24 unless you are sure you are safe.
Yes it is largely a blind opening. But so is just about anything, so the question is what this beats and what it does not beat. It is the economic play and if you opponent does not open aggression/dt, you probably win. Pretty simple. Its a shame that the other interesting quick expo builds from bw do not seem workable: fe, 1-2zealot expo, 2gate expo/forge.
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Been trying it out ... must confess I like the 13+19 2gate FE you described earlier in a post. The pressure from initial 3 stalkers feels a lot tighter than 2 stalkers. With the 2gate stalker approach, my 3 stalkers are facing maybe a zealot + stalker with another stalker on the way, and I get a zealot + stalker kill as well as several probes nearly every time.
I will agree that you get map control with the chrono'd units. I do also notice that the 2gate stalkers does have an idle gateway after first 3 stalkers for about ~2 warpin times, so that is suboptimal.
I will say this: With 3 stalkers or 2stalkers and zealot + current metagame trends ... nobody expects the fast expansion to be down so early so the payoff from the expo happens before the pressure gets rolling (3gate robo/2gate robo/blinkstalkers). The oddball proxy-the-4warpgate was the only surprise I've had using the FE builds.
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EPT
