In the last MLG tournament (Dallas), Idra always went 14 pool baneling against his opponents who went hatch first and I can recall that he never lost a game.

blade55555

United States17423 Posts

November 17 2010 08:54 GMT

#82

Hmm what I do is if we both Hatch first and I can scout his base and see no roach warren get up I make a baneling nest with my roaches. I always go roaches always I feel its alot better then speedling baneling and if you get some banes with those your pretty much safe if he tries a pure speedling off of 2 base attack.

Now if you both pool first I go roaches but will go roach/baneling if I see pure speedling coming out. Its about the safest builds you can do honestly in both scenarios but thats just me my zvz is doing amazing right now when i started doing these ^^

Daniel C

Hong Kong1606 Posts

November 17 2010 09:31 GMT

#83

On November 17 2010 11:50 Twaxter wrote:
Hatch First does have a good counter
+1 Roach Rush.

It allows for around 16-17 (leave 3 roaches at ramp, in case of back stab) roaches + 3 more roaches every larva cycle, all with 18dmg, (2 shot lings)
It comes early enough (at around 8min) , and any type of droning at that time gets severely punishes, also very hard to scout as well, as you simply need to block off your ramp with 3 roaches or so, and rally the other roaches out of sight in case he tries to poke in with a ling. You time it so the roaches get +1 as they are just entering the natural, and its very effective.
It works for me at 1600 d.

and im sure, the expo (350mins) will allow his roach count (even if he went roach) to be way less than yours.

If you leave 3 roaches at ramp without expanding, then I would immediately suspect some kind of all-in. I would NOT mass speedlings because these are larva-inefficient and are ineffective against 1-base roach, muta or baneling all-ins. Instead, I would make an extra queen, and more spine crawlers, and probably roaches of my own. If I was really paranoid, I would send in an ovie to check for lair tech or any tech buildings. By the time 17 roaches come in, the expo would have paid off for itself already. 17 +1 roaches are powerful, but the expo comes so late that if your opponent makes a ton of defense and holds the push, you would be significantly behind.

samuraibael

Australia294 Posts

November 17 2010 09:47 GMT

#84

Is that san vs darkforce game going to happen? I want to know if that build works.

DarKFoRcE

Germany1215 Posts

November 17 2010 09:57 GMT

#85

Im not sure if i have played against this exact variation after going hatch first myself, but so far i found every 1 base roach push extremly easy to hold with 2-3 spine crawlers + roaches. The only time i die to some kind of 1 base push after going hatch first is if i make some kind of blunder early on or if im too greedy with drones.

i think your best bet is to expand yourself while making your opponent think you might go for some kind of mass ling allin and hope he overinvests in defense early on.

Twaxter

Canada190 Posts

November 17 2010 22:16 GMT

#86

On November 17 2010 18:57 DarKFoRcE wrote:

Show nested quote +

Agreed ^
I think +1 mass roaches would allow my economy to get significantly behind, and its better to just mirror. It mite be effective against those players who went speedling, or didn't scout. But as you climb ladder, it can be very easy to hold off, and the expo saturation kicks in.

Synk

United States297 Posts

November 17 2010 22:36 GMT

#87

In my experience hatch first is safe against any 13 pool or later, I send a drone scout out on 9 to check and if its 13 or later I hatch first which is always very safe. Also I find lings to be the most powerful unit you have in the early game, however properly micro'd banelings will crush them anything else and its GG once my hatch finishes. When my hatch finishes I always have 16 or 17 drones depending on how safe I feel, I immediately make 2 queens and pump nothing but speedlings while taking all 3 workers out of gas. From here more than half the time I just wait for speed to finish, and I usually have about 25-30 lings at this point and I just attack. Literally anything but 6 banelings cannot stop this, if they do have banelings as long as your on their side of the map, your fine .. just pull back drop 2 or 3 spines at each base and pump drones and lings( this scenario usually leads to an interesting macro game). However if the other player has 6 banes or more and manages to engage on my side of the map things go south for me, this is the only time I lose zvz right now .. trying to find a way to smooth out this one scenario atm.

Railgan

Switzerland1510 Posts

November 17 2010 22:41 GMT

#88

I usually go 16 hatch and i'm doing quite well...

you guys seem to forget that if you build your hatch at 14 or later...
your opponent won't know that you are going hatch first till you hit atleast 14 supply

i mean the fact that you guys are saying 12 pool kills 14 hatch...
well i see if he pools at 12 so i go for a 14 pool case closed

he pools at 14 i hatch at 15 pool 14... he couldn't 12 pool because i hatched after his pool.