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On November 17 2010 01:01 Hurkyl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 14:04 Sanasante wrote:
This match up is not luck based what so ever. Many players at the upper tier are still not that good at ZvZ plain and simple. I'll go ahead and toss my build but will not go into explaining the details of the build or how to deal with the various strategies as this build is 100% my own. I will say however that I have the ability to deal with any possible opening Z does. Some are more difficult to deal with while others are easier. The part you are not explaining is precisely the part that is of interest. On the surface, your build appears significantly disadvantaged against a Hatchery first build. (And according to the previous poster, also disadvantaged against Banelings, but that's not an issue I have the knowledge to discuss) Let's say he goes Hatchery first but otherwise plays similarly to your strategy. The main question of interest is whether your opening book includes something like a timing attack that allows you to achieve parity or even an advantage, or if your 85% win rate is due to some you outplaying your opponent.
Let me go ahead and explain. Hatchery first builds (Minus inside the main) are nearly 100% preventable if you send a scout drone (Right when you start your overlord). Typically maps that people FE on (Lost Temple, Metropolis, Shakuras, Jungle Basin) sometimes (Blistering, Scrap Station) and usually never (Xel-Naga or any close map) I don't usually play on Delta or Steps. You cannot prevent the expansion forever however you can delay it long enough to force a pool first.
The primary advantage of the build is it allows for an expansion at 21/22 Supply that cannot be directly killed with any build, effectively gaining a larva advantage over your opponent which can then be used to gain a significant advantage shortly after. This is the primary purpose of the build. The 2nd hatchery puts immense pressure on your opponent, which he can follow up with either expanding on his own, pushing all-in, or attempting to minimize your advantage through killing drones.
The "Speed" Zerglings allow you to effectively have map control. In fact if your opponent goes roaches if he attempts to leave his base at any point earlier on he will instantly lose. Your opponent cannot expand after you (for a long time) safely without you being able to kill him outright.
The variations of the build kick in when your opponent is attempting certain timing pushes after being turtled (+1 roaches for example).
Banelings are a very very slow unit compared to zerglings. I have recently been learning to more effectively deal with baneling play. The most important part I think of my play is scouting and overlord placement. This allows you to see if he is moving out early for a quick baneling morph near your base, which you can intercept (Before your speed pops). You want your opponents travel time to be maximized. This can allow you to force your opponent into being defensive or spending money on spines (Which he does not want to do).
I do however agree with Darkforce's comment above about the timing vulnerability during the larva inject. This build becomes powerful once the first larva inject finishes. I have learned to deal with this by pushing out with my slow lings.
I will say however the scariest moments is when your opponent goes 9 pool into fast banelings. I have faced a few people doing this and have not had an issue with it as of yet but I would like to try my build against this vs an exceptional player to see exactly how vulnerable I might be.
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I've actually been having some pretty decent zvz results around 2K level with a one base +1 speed/burrow roach timing push. It works best against people who go ling/baneling off 1 base IMO... you basically set up 1-2 early spinecrawlers, 1-2 queens and 2-3 roaches for early defense (can get away with less sometimes depending on how much pressure is being put on you.. you'd be surprised at how much two queens at the ramp along with 1 spine can hold off.. especially with transfuse) It's important you don't allow him to do a lot of damage with his early attacks.. just takes practice..
Once your ramp is secure you just pump drones until you are fully saturated on one base.. I'm talking at least two drones per mineral patch and both geysers going full blast. Against a zerg who goes 1 base early ling/baneling pressure you should have a superior economy. Then it's just straight up pure roach pump while also getting roach speed, +1 attack and burrow. You should push out as soon as upgrades are finished...
If he doesn't have mutas yet at this point.. it should basically be gg if you have good micro. Don't forget to use burrow against lings if he doesn't have an overseer(most zergs won't) If he went for like just MASS lings with no lair or anything then get BANELINGS.. I always cringe when I see z players losing to pure mass ling because all you need to do is get some banelings..
If he blocked off his ramp with spines you could be in trouble (if it's not blocked just run past spines).. you can research burrow movement and sneak under the spines, but it buys him more time to get mutas or whatever out.. so it's usually 50/50 chance of winning in this scenario
If he has mutas out before you get there it can get a little tricky.. Mutas mean he probably doesnt have a lot of lings so you should be able to just run into his main and force his mutas to attack your roaches. You should have a LOT of roaches and we all know how long it takes 5-6 mutas to kill 16+ roaches=) hopefully you should be able to do significant damage to his economy. You can also do cute things like burrow in his mineral line, then if his mutas head toward your main unburrow and just repeat. It basically forces him to leave his mutas at his base until he gets an overseer. Then just queen/spore up at your main and should be gg again.. it obviously doesn't work out everytime, but I've had pretty good success with it.
Again, IMO, the 1 base roach timing push shines the most against 1 basing ling/baneling players who go for a late expo. If they are doing any sort of early expo strategy then the build becomes very mediocore and difficult to win with. In that case I usually just transition into an expo myself or try to take out their expo. I do find a lot of zergs like going for early 1 base ling/baneling pressure builds though so 1 base roach definately has it's uses..
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On November 16 2010 06:19 gdTyrael wrote:Thats my point, imo its impossible to Hatch first in ZvZ unless both players hatch first Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 06:18 regulator_mk wrote:
Scout on 8. If you see early pool, don't go hatch first; if you don't see one, then go hatch first... even a 14 pool can finish off a hatch first. An agressive player will always beat it. PS: On a side note, you guys might have heard artosis in gsl saying that in korea you cant hatch first anymore against protoss and to terran cause you get cannon/bunker rushed. I think soon enough Zerg is not going to hatch first at all.
This is not correct, unless you're playing on Steps of War or some equally tiny map. He will have more larva to pump out lings and can just make spines at the natural. They aren't great against lings, but all he needs to do is survive the first 6 minutes and he'll be ahead, especially if you tried to put on the pressure with mass lings.
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On November 17 2010 02:18 Shika wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 01:03 Sajiki wrote:
i feel like there are a lot of platinum/lower levels stating "opinions" in here. I think a lot of things written in this thread are proven by nothing but personal preference and practice against AI :S
it is very hard to distinguish between good and bad advice and i would recommend that perhaps noone below at least the level of the thread-starter would post his BO in here. Im very interested in this subject but statements like "you can NEVERRRRRR hatch first; you will lose EVERYTIME with this build vs this build" just makes me mad :s This, so much this. This is a problem with the strategy forum that have become worse and worse after release to the point where I don't bother reading them anymore, this topic just caught my eye on the left menu at random and I thought that maybe it could be interesting. Good players don't want to post on these forums anymore because their posts gets drowned by ramblings from people who clearly have no clue but still post their opinons (based on their experience in gold league, low diamond, 2v2 or whatever) as if they were a fact. To find actual good advice you have to wade through post after post after post of pure garbage. It took close to 24 hours and up until page 3 before anyone actually posted that you can in fact scout a 6-pool before deciding on going hatch first. That's just ridiculous.
I have almost 100% stopped posting on TL because of this crystal clear post. Once in a while you find good players that post but not very often. I don't really consider anyone to be semi solid until around 1900 on ladder and even at that point there is so many 1900 players who make so many fundamental mistakes. The worst part is these players act authoritative even though their knowledge of the game is skewed and only half there.
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I'll preface this by saying I'm just a #1 Plat ranked player  (I can taste diamondy goodness)
Also, I SUCK at ZvZ. I'm probably 80-20 in ZvP and ZvT and like 20-80 ZvZ.
There is a "safe" build that I use from time to time, especially on Xel'Naga Caverns (I thumbs down the other 2p maps except scrap station) I think there is a thread someplace here that I can't find. (Link it if you find it)
It basically consists of 12 pool, 16 gas and 18 OV. The 12 pool is early enough that you can use 12-16 supply window to make lings if you need to to fend off an earlier pool, and you can be aggressive with banelings or roaches if you scout an econ build if you want.
I personally prefer 14 pool and then go from there.
Early game, I feel that ZvZ is a pure micro MU where the superior player usually wins. It's when you get into the midgame that scouting and macro wins it.
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On November 17 2010 02:37 Zorkmid wrote:I'll preface this by saying I'm just a #1 Plat ranked player (I can taste diamondy goodness) Also, I SUCK at ZvZ. I'm probably 80-20 in ZvP and ZvT and like 20-80 ZvZ. There is a "safe" build that I use from time to time, especially on Xel'Naga Caverns (I thumbs down the other 2p maps except scrap station) I think there is a thread someplace here that I can't find. (Link it if you find it) It basically consists of 12 pool, 16 gas and 18 OV. The 12 pool is early enough that you can use 12-16 supply window to make lings if you need to to fend off an earlier pool, and you can be aggressive with banelings or roaches if you scout an econ build if you want. I personally prefer 14 pool and then go from there. Early game, I feel that ZvZ is a pure micro MU where the superior player usually wins. It's when you get into the midgame that scouting and macro wins it.
Without wanting to offend you, but your "safe" build looks like total shit, why in gods name do you need a 12 pool to be "safe" on XNC?. Sometimes its better to say nothing. Especially when you are on rank #65435 in the ladder and in your own opinion suck at the matchup you want to talk about.
On November 17 2010 02:18 Shika wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 01:03 Sajiki wrote:
i feel like there are a lot of platinum/lower levels stating "opinions" in here. I think a lot of things written in this thread are proven by nothing but personal preference and practice against AI :S
it is very hard to distinguish between good and bad advice and i would recommend that perhaps noone below at least the level of the thread-starter would post his BO in here. Im very interested in this subject but statements like "you can NEVERRRRRR hatch first; you will lose EVERYTIME with this build vs this build" just makes me mad :s This, so much this. This is a problem with the strategy forum that have become worse and worse after release to the point where I don't bother reading them anymore, this topic just caught my eye on the left menu at random and I thought that maybe it could be interesting. Good players don't want to post on these forums anymore because their posts gets drowned by ramblings from people who clearly have no clue but still post their opinons (based on their experience in gold league, low diamond, 2v2 or whatever) as if they were a fact. To find actual good advice you have to wade through post after post after post of pure garbage. It took close to 24 hours and up until page 3 before anyone actually posted that you can in fact scout a 6-pool before deciding on going hatch first. That's just ridiculous.
I very much agree with you. But i think this is a general problem with the internet, 99% of the stuff you find online is pure shit, but sometimes you do find a gem. Unfortunately i cannot remember the last time i found one in SC2 Strategy :\
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Wow... so much arrogance, hate, and bashing in the Forums lately. Does not even make fun to search for stuff anymore here, if the only thing you see is arrogant people bashing each other... srsly.
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On November 17 2010 03:40 nodq wrote:
Wow... so much arrogance, hate, and bashing in the Forums lately. Does not even make fun to search for stuff anymore here, if the only thing you see is arrogant people bashing each other... srsly.
Yes, I'm in the same boat as you nodq.
Seriously, I don't care if you're a 2500 diamond player or some shit, how about coming back with 3k points, a GSL trophy, and a more humble attitude. Waay too much arrogance here, even if everything you said is sound and correct, there are different ways of expressing them.
But yeah you quite literally have to wade through all the posts to be able to find the right ones that give reasonable advice. The 12 pool suggestions just seemed a bit skewed and unnecessary. Although I don't like the elitist 2300 - 2500 players posting in their condescending manner, their advice is quite good, so thank you.
I've been playing purely with 15 hatch or 14 hatch first BOs in ZvZ (and yeah it took forever for you people to point out that you can scout a 6pool before making the decision to drop pool or hatch first). It works fantastically against players who are bad at aggression, but players who are more experienced will constantly poke at you for any holes in order to reduce your drone count while they expand get their own expo. Unless you're a tip top player in terms of mechanics, it's extremely difficult to keep yourself up against a player who's hungry for your drones, and in the worst case scenario they'll destroy your FE. I'm beginning to believe that the effort just isn't worth it for the small advantage... unless of course they go all-in and you defend it properly in a completely one-sided fashion.
Definitely going to try out some of these pool first builds with the +1 timing attack against other FEs
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On November 17 2010 03:04 DarKFoRcE wrote:
why in gods name do you need a 12 pool to be "safe" on XNC?. Sometimes its better to say nothing. Especially when you are on rank #65435 in the ladder and in your own opinion suck at the matchup you want to talk about.
XNC might have been a bad example, but a 12 pool defends a 6 pool alot better than a 14 pool or Hatch first build, especially on short rush distance maps.
Edit: It's cool with me if you disagree, but if you're going to bother posting, give reasons why my ideas are shit. If you want to diss my ranking, that's fine too. Do it in a PM so it doesn't fuck up these strat threads.
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I just seen a couple games of Dimaga vs Sen, and they hatched first on Steppes of War... I mean, you have to have BALLS! to hatch first on such a small map.. They didnt even sent a scout drone and the overlords were far away from the nat... So, or they take it for granted that the other will hatch aswell or they are pretty confident that you can hold hatch first in any ocasion..
After reading this thread I watched countless replays and even thou most of the games ppl go 14 pool, some games where they hatch first it seems completely viable, they have delayed lings/blings but they usually can buy some time by microing things.
Now, one thing that Ive seen on most of this games is that the expo just serves as a larva booster, I mean, they never droned past pool, just keeped pumping units. So how about lay a hatch in your main? its safer... I know that in your natural if the game extends you already have it there for droning but still, most games finishes before that.
On the latest IdrA ZvZ games hes doing every game the same thing.. 14 gas 14 pool, speed, 20-21 baneling nest... go to opponents base, scout, if theres roach warren been made, cancel baneling and starts a roach warren himself... otherwise he keeps banelings, if opponent goes bling nest, he goes roaches
I've seen a lot of games where people keep fighting the ling/bling war. Imo its pointless and just tires the player because no one is able to overcome the other, until someone give up and throw a roach warren and try to econ, its always the same thing. The replay I posted earlier of Madfrod is a freaking 30 minutes game where no one gives up on ling/bling and no one can overcome the other, why be so stubborn? is it worth to just keep trying it for so long? So, taking this fact ZvZ is usually about going roaches since a ling/bling cannot beat it, even more if you add a couple blings to the roachs if he has lings.
I totally understand the value of going lings first cause of mobility and drone harass, and its a total game winner if the other player just mass lings and never go banes and you go, so there is the only way I can see ling/bling is really worth, otherwise I would just say wall in yourself with some roaches and drone up, mass roach and go for a timed attack, if not gg, expand and go for a mid game with infestors and upgrades
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On November 17 2010 05:13 gdTyrael wrote:
I just seen a couple games of Dimaga vs Sen, and they hatched first on Steppes of War... I mean, you have to have BALLS! to hatch first on such a small map.. They didnt even sent a scout drone and the overlords were far away from the nat... So, or they take it for granted that the other will hatch aswell or they are pretty confident that you can hold hatch first in any ocasion..
After reading this thread I watched countless replays and even thou most of the games ppl go 14 pool, some games where they hatch first it seems completely viable, they have delayed lings/blings but they usually can buy some time by microing things.
Now, one thing that Ive seen on most of this games is that the expo just serves as a larva booster, I mean, they never droned past pool, just keeped pumping units. So how about lay a hatch in your main? its safer... I know that in your natural if the game extends you already have it there for droning but still, most games finishes before that.
On the latest IdrA ZvZ games hes doing every game the same thing.. 14 gas 14 pool, speed, 20-21 baneling nest... go to opponents base, scout, if theres roach warren been made, cancel baneling and starts a roach warren himself... otherwise he keeps banelings, if opponent goes bling nest, he goes roaches
I've seen a lot of games where people keep fighting the ling/bling war. Imo its pointless and just tires the player because no one is able to overcome the other, until someone give up and throw a roach warren and try to econ, its always the same thing
I have never watched Sen's ZvZ but Dimaga hatches first in every ZvZ game I have seen him play. Sen was most likely responding knowing how Dimaga plays.
The reason why you put your hatch outside your base is because if you switch into defensive mode and start macroing you have an expansion to exploit which can lead to major economic advantage. Your not very much safer hatching in your main (Unless your going roaches, which why would you even need a 2nd hatch off one base).
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I have never watched Sen's ZvZ but Dimaga hatches first in every ZvZ game I have seen him play. Sen was most likely responding knowing how Dimaga plays.
Yeah, I thought about it, so I guess he didnt 6-9 pool cause its too risky? otherwise its a hardcounter to dimaga's play style in this map =)
theres the replay if you want to see Sen: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2358
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Hatch First does have a good counter
+1 Roach Rush.
It allows for around 16-17 (leave 3 roaches at ramp, in case of back stab) roaches + 3 more roaches every larva cycle, all with 18dmg, (2 shot lings)
It comes early enough (at around 8min) , and any type of droning at that time gets severely punishes, also very hard to scout as well, as you simply need to block off your ramp with 3 roaches or so, and rally the other roaches out of sight in case he tries to poke in with a ling. You time it so the roaches get +1 as they are just entering the natural, and its very effective.
It works for me at 1600 d.
and im sure, the expo (350mins) will allow his roach count (even if he went roach) to be way less than yours.
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On November 17 2010 11:50 Twaxter wrote:
Hatch First does have a good counter
+1 Roach Rush.
It allows for around 16-17 (leave 3 roaches at ramp, in case of back stab) roaches + 3 more roaches every larva cycle, all with 18dmg, (2 shot lings)
It comes early enough (at around 8min) , and any type of droning at that time gets severely punishes, also very hard to scout as well, as you simply need to block off your ramp with 3 roaches or so, and rally the other roaches out of sight in case he tries to poke in with a ling. You time it so the roaches get +1 as they are just entering the natural, and its very effective.
It works for me at 1600 d.
and im sure, the expo (350mins) will allow his roach count (even if he went roach) to be way less than yours.
was just about to post essentially the same thing. if i scout a normal pool/gas opening (not 6pool or hatch first) i mass roaches on one base. i leave a few on hold position on my ramp and wait til he plops his expo down. then i attack with all my units. i have very good success with this.
i havent tried the +1 (just want to have as many roaches as possible), but that sounds good too.
this is safe against any early game aggression which is why i eventually settled on it. he can run lings/blings into your roach wall forever and not come out ahead. if he goes roaches... well my whole plan was to have more then you so im covered.
i hear someone saying 1 base muta would crush u. if one base muta is beating u then i dont think i can help.
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I hatch first every game, and I feel I only lose to either someone that pressures me while expanding himself, or when I misjudge the situation. I think a lot of players around low-mid Diamond just go mass ling, or 1 base roach and hope to win. I usually have 2 spines against early pressure, but I find against a lot of these 1-base play, sometimes even 4-5 spines are worth it.
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im playing at the 1900-2k level on NA servers and until recently i was losing 9/10 ZvZs. i now do something similar to sanasante, and win about 8/10 zvzs.
speedling openers are about as safe as you can get in this matchup
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On November 17 2010 01:27 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 00:14 Sanasante wrote:On November 16 2010 23:49 DarKFoRcE wrote:There is so much non- and half-knowledge floating around in this thread, its horrible. you can scout a little after 9 on LT and meta and still see whether the opponent 6 pools before you place down the hatch first. To me it is very unclear whether roach or a ling baneling opening is favorable. I think that if the one getting the lings actually builds a few banelings, he is behind because they are pretty useless against the roaches. In ZvZ you often lose because of "small" mistakes or a hard to scout timingpush, which is why you need alot of games to actually find out what builds are truely superior. What BO is good is also extremely map dependant. On November 16 2010 14:04 Sanasante wrote:
This match up is not luck based what so ever. Many players at the upper tier are still not that good at ZvZ plain and simple. I'll go ahead and toss my build but will not go into explaining the details of the build or how to deal with the various strategies as this build is 100% my own. I will say however that I have the ability to deal with any possible opening Z does. Some are more difficult to deal with while others are easier.
9 ovy
14 gas
14 pool
15 ovy (stop drones)
100 gas for speed then move back to minerals
queen
ling until 21/22
hatch at expo
22ish ovy
continue zlings
Everything after this is based upon your opponents reaction. You make the adjustments for what your vsing after the base build however this build guarantee's 100% safe fast expand. My win ratio in ZvZ is around 85%+ so if you still want to call it luck then I must be just really lucky.
I have stopped the following builds against 2300+ Z players with this build.
6 pool
6 pool (+ Drones + Spine)
7 pool
9 pool
9 pool into banes
14 gas 14 pool (Banes)
14 pool 14 gas (Roaches)
14 hatch 14 pool
Fast Muta Tech
Roaches with +1 / speed
Roaches + Bane good luck defending against a well executed ling baneling with that. 2300+ means nothing. I've had a 2350 Z go for iInbase Hatch first on Scrap Station against me. I have faced well executed ling/bane and I can say that it is the most difficult to deal with. However once your 2nd hatchery pops you have a significant larva advantage at your disposal. Their is also something else to note. Banelings attack speed is around .5 of a second. You can actually cause them to detonate when moving your lings in and then out (Without losing 1 zergling). This becomes significantly harder when you are dealing with large numbers which is why I like to push little battles. The trick when going mass ling vs banelings is to keep your opponent defensive long enough to get a couple spine crawlers at your expansion then do a fast switch to roaches. If he still has not expanded then he will likely be going all in and you throw down a few more spines. 2300 May mean nothing but I was giving a general outline, I have beaten 2500 Zergs as well. As I stated earlier. This is my own build. I took the original idea and made it into my own build that I have learned to evolve vs anything a zerg throws at me. This happens when you play 300+ games with a single build order and somehow... still manage to keep a 85% win ratio in a matchup that so many consider luck based. I 100% agree with your first statement however with losing because of the small mistakes. I will not tell you the number of times I have attack moved my zerglings into the fog and ran straight into a baneling. Things happen and this matchup is extremely unforgiving. If you would like we can ZvZ later to prove my point. Of course, as soon as you are able to get 1 or 2 spine crawlers at the expansion, you should be favorable. The thing is, there is a small timing window when your opponent has a good bunch more units than you (right after the inject pops) during which it is very difficult to defend against the banelings. Alot might come down to micro, and if you micro better than your opponent or if he does not react to your hatchery perfectly you can survive against it, but i personally have never lost in this spot from the perspective of the baneling player for quite a while, even though i think my ZvZ is actually fairly weak. Just message me on bnet if you wanna try it out, im curious about it.
If u guys are going to test it out, i would very much like to see that.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
I like idra's ZvZ opening, thats 13/14 pool -> get 4 lings to scout(sack them to kill 2+ drones if you can) and a spine for defence. Seems super safe for me.
Can go roach or bling depending on what you scout.
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Hatch First > Late Pool > Early Pool > Hatch First etc...
Roach > Baneling > Speedling > Roach etc...
I find speedlings counter roaches until the roaches reach that "critical mass" where you suffer more even with a good surround.
Only hatch first if you scouted your opponent with your first overlord (such as LT and Metal), otherwise it is very risky. You will need spine crawlers at expansion vs baneling and roaches at ramp to prevent run-bys.
Baneling is kinda all-in; if you don't deal damage then you're automatically behind.
I've also seen builds where you hatch in-base and go double queen. This can be pretty deadly.
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I've been watching MrBitter's stream where he has EG.Machine coaching him about ZvZ and i recommend everyone who struggles with ZvZ to watch it.
They go over Ling / Baneling, FE and a 1 base Roach timing push and their different counters.
Especially the Roach push was very interesting to me and I've been using it with great success at my level on the smaller maps.
It's basically a +1 Speed Burrow Roach push where you go for a quick 6 lings and 6 Roaches for defense first:
9 Ovie
14 Pool
14 Gas
15 Overlord
15 Queen
17 Roach Warren
3x Lings
20 Overlord (so 1 more drone after lings)
Use the first two lings to scout and the other 4 on your ramp. As soon as the Roach Warren pops you make 6 Roaches to block your ramp (2 rows of 3 to help with baneling splash). Start Ovie @32.
As soon as this is done you start Lair, take your second gas, plant an Evo chamber and start droning while the Lair hatches (this should bring you to around 42-44 supply). As soon as the Lair finishes you start +1 attack, Roach speed and finally Burrow. Make an Overseer and start pumping Roaches till the upgrades finish.
Use the Overseer to contaminate your opponents Hatch(es) (do this every time you have enough energy) and get some scouting info. As soon as +1 finishes push out with your Roaches and expand. Transition into Roach / Infestor and take your third after you get the first Infestors out.
Be wary for tech switches (you should scout this with your Overseer) and use spore crawlers / Queens or throw down a Hydra den if he goes mutas.
I'm only Gold level but at my level it's very viable and i feel very safe against any one base Zerg opening. Even if they go mutas and i haven't scouted it in time i either win the base trade that follows or i can do so much damage with the roaches while getting my air defenses up at home while the mutas attack my roaches (even if i lose them all i did more than enough damage, including killing of the spire).
I guess it's also viable at higher levels since it's coming from Machine  .
http://www.livestream.com/mrbitter (The coaching session is in the recorded video section. There's also a nice coaching session with iNControL about ZvP).
And of course a big shootout to MrBitter for his great stream and for sharing his coaching sessions.
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EPT
