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Obligatory self-competence notice: 1950 Zerg, opponents usually 2100-2300 rating.
Recently I get the feeling that between players of non-significant skill-gap, ZvZ is 100% luck based. By this I mean that the outcome of the game will, unless both pick the same BO, almost exclusively be decided by the two openings that the players chose to play.
There are basically these 4 openings:
Hatch first
6 Pool
Pool first with goal being roaches (exact BO varies)
Pool first with goal being ling/bling (exact BO varies)
The problem here is that, if you match up two of these openings and they're not the same, one of BOs will have such a big disadvantage to the other that the outcome of the game will largely depend on it.
For example:
Hatch first vs ling/bling opening: Hatch first will always win this, unless the hatch first players makes major, major mistakes (like letting all of his defense lings die to one bling etc.). The amount of lings and blings the attacker can produce is just not enough to break through the defense of spinecrawlers, queens and lings. Plus, on almost all maps and starting position combinations, the spawning pool of the hatch first player doesn't finish late enough for the attackers lings to do any damage before the defenders lings spawn out of their eggs.
In theory it's possible for the pool first player to adapt and expand himself, but this will result in a rather big economic disadvantage in the long run (remember: we're assuming players of non-significant skill gap)
But: 6pool (with spinecrawler rush) counters hatch first 100% (of course, again assuming that the 6 pool player doesn't make any major mistakes). 6 pool though will always lose to a properly defended ling/bling or roach BO.
The only case where it can be kind of even, depending on how good the two players react to their opponents, is the case of roach vs ling/bling. But even here, the ling/bling player will usually win, simply because he can scout the roach BO, get a little bit ahead in economy, and win the game this way. But here, like I said, even top players make the mistake of not reacting properly which then results in a more even game.
So here is my question: Do you feel the same about the matchup? And if not, why + what is the safest BO against everything that you can suggest?
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I can talk a bit about the Pool first vs Hatch first, since I play on the Pool first side and have been analyzing how to avoid falling behind. I'm still working on it, though, so don't be too surprised if this analysis is incomplete or has some errors in it.
The advantage of a sufficiently early Spawning Pool first is earlier Zerglings, and you have several extra larva after your first Inject finishes. The advantage of Hatchery first is money. If you go Pool first, you want to steer the game towards one where larva is more important than money.
A prime way to do this is to play a heavy Zergling (and possibly Baneling) game. Your opponent only really gets two options:
- He can go hard Zerglings / Banelings. This keeps his Drone count low, and extra Hatchery irrelevant.
- He can build Spine Crawlers. This increases his larva disadvantage and consumes his mineral advantage.
My instinct tells me that, in this way, it is possible for a pool first build (maybe 11 pool 11 over, or 9 over 12 pool) to secure equality if not an actual advantage over the Hatch first unless the map is too large.
Of course, this approach isn't for the faint of heart because you have to be constantly in your opponent's face without wasting lings, carefully tread the line of using your larvae advantage to keep a higher drone count (or a higher Zergling count if you think you can win a battle!), and be able to quickly switch gears to droning / teching when the time is right.
To summarize, I don't think Hatchery gets a relevant advantage unless it can start droning. If you can make it costly to hold the front while droning and switch gears yourself, you can gain advantage.
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Very interesting topic, I was thinking the same.
I don't know universal build for ZvZ, but you should understand that everytime your opponent does risky build (FE, 6 pool) he takes huge risk and his build probably won't work against other opponent. That means even if he wins vs. you, his ZvZ strategy is not versatile, while yours is more versatile if you, let's say, always go pool first even if you are in slight economy disadvantage vs. his hatch first.
Btw isn't it possible to throw FE if he FE just by scouting him?
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On November 16 2010 05:30 Hurkyl wrote:I can talk a bit about the Pool first vs Hatch first, since I play on the Pool first side and have been analyzing how to avoid falling behind. I'm still working on it, though, so don't be too surprised if this analysis is incomplete or has some errors in it. The advantage of a sufficiently early Spawning Pool first is earlier Zerglings, and you have several extra larva after your first Inject finishes. The advantage of Hatchery first is money. If you go Pool first, you want to steer the game towards one where larva is more important than money. A prime way to do this is to play a heavy Zergling (and possibly Baneling) game. Your opponent only really gets two options: - He can go hard Zerglings / Banelings. This keeps his Drone count low, and extra Hatchery irrelevant.
- He can build Spine Crawlers. This increases his larva disadvantage and consumes his mineral advantage.
My instinct tells me that, in this way, it is possible for a pool first build (maybe 11 pool 11 over, or 9 over 12 pool) to secure equality if not an actual advantage over the Hatch first unless the map is too large. Of course, this approach isn't for the faint of heart because you have to be constantly in your opponent's face without wasting lings, carefully tread the line of using your larvae advantage to keep a higher drone count (or a higher Zergling count if you think you can win a battle!), and be able to quickly switch gears to droning / teching when the time is right. To summarize, I don't think Hatchery gets a relevant advantage unless it can start droning. If you can make it costly to hold the front while droning and switch gears yourself, you can gain advantage.
This approach usually works against players who are unexperienced against good, constant aggression weighed out with decent drone production. The problem is (and I've experienced both sides of the problem) that the game will reach an unavoidable point where the hatch first player gains a big advantage because of his drone and larvae production.
If you play against a good player, he will not overcommit to defense, but not to economy either. In practice, this means that the player will go through a constant "ling/drone/ling/drone/ling/drone/ling/drone" cycle, with a few spinecrawlers (depending on the map 2 or three) thrown in at the beginning and everytime one goes down.
If you can somehow get a player to throw down 6-8 spine crawlers over the course of the game, and kill 5+ drones in early harass without losing too much yourself, I can see how your strategy works, but I just can't see how you would manage to do something like that. Effectively, for every spine crawler he puts down he loses 150 minerals, but at the same time, he will build 4 new drones PLUS a lot of new lings to defend, and of course the spine crawler will do its job to defend too.
Due to his higher mineral income from the very beginning (he has a lot of drones since his pool is delayed quite a lot) he can afford to defend with enough lings while still boosting his eco with his superior larvae production.
After the initial aggression that you suggest, the pool first player can throw down a hatchery too without having to cut lings or drones, because usually there will come a point where you have 300 minerals left over. The problem is that there will be a timing window when you need to commit a lot of larvae to drones if you don't want to fall too far behind, which your opponent can either abuse to produce even more drones, or get a lot of mutas / roaches ahead of you.
It's also not really hard to deduce theoretically: The defending player can defend while still getting ahead of you in economy (and more importantly: tech). In the long run, this will end in a win for him.
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I agree 100%. I'm interested in seeing responses to this because ZvZ has become complete build order rock paper scissors for me at least.
When you scout, your always a step behind. I don't see any point in scouting openings in ZvZ anymore. I just guess and hope I picked the right one. Say you see them FE; if you FE after them, you're doing the exact same strategy only getting off to a slower start... You can't scout a hatch first and counter it anymore, either you 6/7 pooled and instantly won, or you didn't and are now behind... It's very frustrating.
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Im 1600 diamond player and by FAR ZvZ is my worst MU.
Today I lost 3 times to huge lings openings.. I mean, the guy just spent on lings, most of them went like 11-12 pool... But even Im going 14 pool standard I barely survive, I just can hold myself while managing my larva between lings to defend and droning. I cant see how you can Hatch first in ZvZ and survive to a commited ling harass, and Im not even tlking about 6 pool, a basic 12 pool can deny the hatch... because you will always get scouted, If I scout a hatch first I just make lings and thats it, he doesnt have creep to lay spines and probably less lings than me, so or I win straight or I deny his exp and we start al over again the 2 expanding.
The biggest problem I have is getting pinned by my opponent. In ZvZ I like to go pool first, 13 or 14, I get a queen, bout 4 lings and a spine crawler, and if he commits to a heavy ling attack I survive most of the times, but with some mineral line harassing (ling passing through the sides of spines) and he usually at this point will have always more lings than me cause I spent on 1 or 2 spines.
At this point hes completely safe to expand to his natural since he cannot win right away but has his army at my door thou. After I get roachs or enough ling he retreats, but again, Im really behind cause his exp is already paying for itself.
Most of the games at this point people go Mutas, so I always get a couple Spores at my base and go for Hydras. The last match I played I owned his Muta harass, but he transitioned into Roach/Hydra himself with Infestor support. And thats it, past early game ZvZ is always about roach/hydra battles cause mutas sucks if one goes hydras. Then even when I macro good I hold the game until early late game, to the point he has his 3rd base and Im just going for a 3rd, then he overruns me with larger supply.
So ZvZ imo is very gimmicky... in the beggining I always thought it was a luck based MU, today it depends, sometimes the game is about who can ling faster and deny and exp. Sometimes is a luck baneling killing dozens of lings. And sometimes where the game evolves to mid game is about macro at best.
I really need advice on ZvZ, Im tired of losing =(
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Hatch first loses to ling/bling??! Since when???
I've always thought Hatch first is so insanely risky that's its practically suicide. I don't think I've ever lost against it. Spinecrawlers take forever to build up, and you are guarenteed to have significantly more lings than them. I just don't see how the hatch will ever survive against an aggressive player.
Personally I thought the only safe openings in ZvZ were ling/bling or roaches or roaches-into-FE. But never hatch first...
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Scout on 8. If you see early pool, don't go hatch first; if you don't see one, then go hatch first...
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Thats my point, imo its impossible to Hatch first in ZvZ unless both players hatch first
On November 16 2010 06:18 regulator_mk wrote:
Scout on 8. If you see early pool, don't go hatch first; if you don't see one, then go hatch first...
even a 14 pool can finish off a hatch first. An agressive player will always beat it.
PS: On a side note, you guys might have heard artosis in gsl saying that in korea you cant hatch first anymore against protoss and to terran cause you get cannon/bunker rushed. I think soon enough Zerg is not going to hatch first at all.
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On November 16 2010 06:03 heishe wrote:If you play against a good player, he will not overcommit to defense, but not to economy either. In practice, this means that the player will go through a constant "ling/drone/ling/drone/ling/drone/ling/drone" cycle, with a few spinecrawlers (depending on the map 2 or three) thrown in at the beginning and everytime one goes down.
This is what I'm looking for. If I run my first 6 Zerglings into their base and see that he has two Spine Crawlers started at his natural, I'm going to throw down my Hatchery and be confident I have both more money and more larvae than my opponent, and start droning, while being very careful that he doesn't out-ling me. (And to make sure he didn't try to drone after his pool finished)
Due to his higher mineral income from the very beginning (he has a lot of drones since his pool is delayed quite a lot) he can afford to defend with enough lings while still boosting his eco with his superior larvae production.
Ah, but the big major point is he doesn't have superior larvae production. With an 11 Spawning Pool, I have a Hatch/Queen level of production starting somewhere around 3:05, and my opponent doesn't even have two Hatcheries worth of larvae production until somewhere around 3:33.
If, for some silly reason we both droned with impunity, not building any Zerglings or Spine Crawlers, I would actually have 3-4 more drones than you permanently, should I decide to fast expand. (But your mineral advantage would remain for a long time)
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Drones until 10/10.
Thats about the safest BO I can think of, anything beyond that is monster micro management, smart and fast decision making and pure chance, not necessarily in the same order ;>
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On November 16 2010 06:19 gdTyrael wrote:Thats my point, imo its impossible to Hatch first in ZvZ unless both players hatch first Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 06:18 regulator_mk wrote:
Scout on 8. If you see early pool, don't go hatch first; if you don't see one, then go hatch first... even a 14 pool can finish off a hatch first. An agressive player will always beat it. PS: On a side note, you guys might have heard artosis in gsl saying that in korea you cant hatch first anymore against protoss and to terran cause you get cannon/bunker rushed. I think soon enough Zerg is not going to hatch first at all.
A hatch first counters a 14 pool pretty easily. Obviously we're not talking about steppes of war here, but on any map where hatch first is viable, it will easily be able to fend off 14 pool aggression. Stopping 11/12 pools is much harder, and stopping 6/7 pools is impossible.
I still find hatch first to be viable in ZvT and ZvZ. Bunker rushes can be beaten with hatch first, whereas cannon rushes can't.
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On November 16 2010 06:05 vsportsguy wrote:
I agree 100%. I'm interested in seeing responses to this because ZvZ has become complete build order rock paper scissors for me at least.
When you scout, your always a step behind. I don't see any point in scouting openings in ZvZ anymore. I just guess and hope I picked the right one. Say you see them FE; if you FE after them, you're doing the exact same strategy only getting off to a slower start... You can't scout a hatch first and counter it anymore, either you 6/7 pooled and instantly won, or you didn't and are now behind... It's very frustrating.
Why would you stop early scouting? 6-9 pools are common enough on the ladder that it's always worth scouting, for that reason alone. If they hatch first you can take an expo as well, with only a few seconds delay, or you can try a one-base attack. I've also had luck with a quick roach timing attack, but I don't know if it would work against better players.
Personally, I think a lot of zergs are way too fatalistic about this matchup. If you use a smart, stable opening (with good scouting), there isn't any reason why you can't survive to the midgame where there are a lot of options available. ZvZ is probably the most dynamic mirror matchup of the three races, if you can make it past the initial aggression.
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right now there arent any i know of, sadly. 1 base +1 roach comes closest to it, but it still feels gimmicke, all the others have hard counteres. Still, the most solid build, on most maps anyways, is hatch first. But it has hard counter as we all know. Today i played a number of zvzs about 3/4 of them were rock-paper-scissors. ~2400 points here
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Hatch first is viable/better on some maps, mostly 4 player maps. Even then if you hatch first and get close spawns vs someone doing an early pool you're in trouble. But on cross positions metal or Shakuras you are generally safe with hatch first. A good hatch first BO should be ok vs a 6-9 pool cross positions or on Shakuras in general. On a 2 player map a 6-9 pool can be good vs even a pool first build depending on control, on a 4 player map there's a lot of extra risk and 6-9 pool x-positions vs pool first build is suicide.
There are 2 ways to do hatch first. One is for a better economy and money. The 2nd is for a slightly better economy, but significantly more larva. Over a long period of time the 2nd method will get you a better economy vs 1 base, but the key is to understand that your initial goal is to just get more larva out so you have the advantage in ling #s.
Either way on maps that aren't large 4 player maps, pool first when executed correctly will have the advantage. Pool first gives you a larger initial drone count and a larger initial ling count. It takes a while (around the 2nd or 3rd vomit) for the hatch first player to begin pulling ahead. So your goal as the pool first player is simple, use your gas advantage to kill things and force a larva advantage. If you late pool (14/14 for example) or over drone this isn't really feasible so you need to have a good pool first build order that gets executed right.
Ling/bling vs roach is the same. Well almost, if you morph blings vs a roach player you're in trouble. However you should 100% of the time be able to scout the warren vs a player going roaches or read their composition and either cancel the baneling nest or skip morphing banelings before your first vomit. From there you are ahead. With the first vomit you can take a drone advantage or equalize the drone count, especially if you force him to make lings while his roach warren is in progress. From there you can exploit the fact that you don't need roaches right away* to get a better economy, faster expo, more roaches later, or faster upgrades. From there you're at worst in an even position with your opponent going into a roach based midgame.
*he's not going to move out with 4 roaches, and even if he does you can make roaches reactively and hold it.
If you are having trouble exploiting hatch first or roach openings then it's because either you're going for roaches first (which is at a disadvantage vs hatch first) or your ling/bling control and decision making isn't as good as it needs to be.
Why would you stop early scouting? 6-9 pools are common enough on the ladder that it's always worth scouting, for that reason alone. If they hatch first you can take an expo as well, with only a few seconds delay, or you can try a one-base attack. I've also had luck with a quick roach timing attack, but I don't know if it would work against better players.
TBH scouting is a waste in ZvZ if you open gas/pool. Regardless of what you see you won't be changing your build, so why waste the income. You don't need to do anything special to hold off a 6-9 pool if your control is good, your buildings are placed right, and your build orders are right for the map.
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On November 16 2010 03:40 heishe wrote:
The only case where it can be kind of even, depending on how good the two players react to their opponents, is the case of roach vs ling/bling. But even here, the ling/bling player will usually win, simply because he can scout the roach BO, get a little bit ahead in economy, and win the game this way.
That would make opening roaches completely obsolete, since it's also horrible against hatch first. From my experience though, roach openings do pretty well against normal ling/bling openings, especially on maps where the ling player can't cover his main and natural with spine crawlers.
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I totally agree with you OP. I'm not saying I've never been outplayed that's for sure. But you can usually tell when that's the case and when it's not.I don't really have too much to add I think you summed it up really. I guess it's worth saying that I've been having the most success with hatch first. But maybe it's just luck of the draw anyway.
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ever since the roach patch people have been doing alot of onebase roach, suprisingly enough ive been doing alot of 9 pooling just to put pressure on them and kill some drones while i get my own roaches. It seems to work quite well on alot of these gimmicky small rush distance maps.
There is one instance where you can hatchery first, if you spawn close by air on certain maps and you both stall your spawning pools.
If you never 6 pool and never hatchery first (unless its shakuras plateu) the matchup becomes alot less luck based.
The one base roach builds seem to work best atleast down here in mid diamond.
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You absolutely can hatch first if they pool first. I'm getting pretty decent at ZvZ now. I'm ~1700 btw
If they pool 14 or later, you can hatch first. This means they will have ling speed + blings before you - you CANNOT leave your base until you have speed, or once his speed finishes any lings you have on the field will die, he will come to your base, morph 1 bling, and then take down your hatch. GG
Always open with tons of lings once the pool comes up and just go check out what he's doing. If you see roaches, contain with lings, drone, and roach warren. You can hopefully outproduce him. If you see lings from him, morph some blings and try to kill him. It's a very, very fast paced MU, and you just gotta practice a bunch to figure out the little things.
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On November 16 2010 06:38 vsportsguy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 06:19 gdTyrael wrote:Thats my point, imo its impossible to Hatch first in ZvZ unless both players hatch first On November 16 2010 06:18 regulator_mk wrote:
Scout on 8. If you see early pool, don't go hatch first; if you don't see one, then go hatch first... even a 14 pool can finish off a hatch first. An agressive player will always beat it. PS: On a side note, you guys might have heard artosis in gsl saying that in korea you cant hatch first anymore against protoss and to terran cause you get cannon/bunker rushed. I think soon enough Zerg is not going to hatch first at all. A hatch first counters a 14 pool pretty easily. Obviously we're not talking about steppes of war here, but on any map where hatch first is viable, it will easily be able to fend off 14 pool aggression. Stopping 11/12 pools is much harder, and stopping 6/7 pools is impossible. I still find hatch first to be viable in ZvT and ZvZ. Bunker rushes can be beaten with hatch first, whereas cannon rushes can't.
Yeah, map distance plays a huge role, sorry for not mentioning it. Still I would like to know how worth is risking a FE. Supposing you yourself go everygame 11-12 pool, with the intention of not letting the other player FE, if he does 6-9 pool, you can hold it, if he 14 pool, your economy is not that far behind, if he FE you win or deny it at best.
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On November 16 2010 06:59 gdTyrael wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 06:38 vsportsguy wrote:On November 16 2010 06:19 gdTyrael wrote:Thats my point, imo its impossible to Hatch first in ZvZ unless both players hatch first On November 16 2010 06:18 regulator_mk wrote:
Scout on 8. If you see early pool, don't go hatch first; if you don't see one, then go hatch first... even a 14 pool can finish off a hatch first. An agressive player will always beat it. PS: On a side note, you guys might have heard artosis in gsl saying that in korea you cant hatch first anymore against protoss and to terran cause you get cannon/bunker rushed. I think soon enough Zerg is not going to hatch first at all. A hatch first counters a 14 pool pretty easily. Obviously we're not talking about steppes of war here, but on any map where hatch first is viable, it will easily be able to fend off 14 pool aggression. Stopping 11/12 pools is much harder, and stopping 6/7 pools is impossible. I still find hatch first to be viable in ZvT and ZvZ. Bunker rushes can be beaten with hatch first, whereas cannon rushes can't. Yeah, map distance plays a huge role, sorry for not mentioning it. Still I would like to know how worth is risking a FE. Supposing you yourself go everygame 11-12 pool, with the intention of not letting the other player FE, if he does 6-9 pool, you can hold it, if he 14 pool, your economy is not that far behind, if he FE you win or deny it at best.
11-12 pool is pretty behind economically and I think you'll have speed + blings out slower as a result which is really bad. 13 pool 12 gas (or 13, not sure which is better) works really well for certain maps. A big part is knowing when to cut drones while waiting for your pool so you can get 4 lings + queen + speed (if you have enough gas, depends on bo) right away.
Again so much of it is control and decision making. You have to know whether or not you need constant pressure, drone production, or save up for a big bust. Chances are if you are failing vs hatch first with pool/gas builds you might just want to re-examine your control and decision making.
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On November 16 2010 06:07 gdTyrael wrote:
Im 1600 diamond player and by FAR ZvZ is my worst MU.
Today I lost 3 times to huge lings openings.. I mean, the guy just spent on lings, most of them went like 11-12 pool... But even Im going 14 pool standard I barely survive, I just can hold myself while managing my larva between lings to defend and droning. I cant see how you can Hatch first in ZvZ and survive to a commited ling harass, and Im not even tlking about 6 pool, a basic 12 pool can deny the hatch... because you will always get scouted, If I scout a hatch first I just make lings and thats it, he doesnt have creep to lay spines and probably less lings than me, so or I win straight or I deny his exp and we start al over again the 2 expanding.
The biggest problem I have is getting pinned by my opponent. In ZvZ I like to go pool first, 13 or 14, I get a queen, bout 4 lings and a spine crawler, and if he commits to a heavy ling attack I survive most of the times, but with some mineral line harassing (ling passing through the sides of spines) and he usually at this point will have always more lings than me cause I spent on 1 or 2 spines.
At this point hes completely safe to expand to his natural since he cannot win right away but has his army at my door thou. After I get roachs or enough ling he retreats, but again, Im really behind cause his exp is already paying for itself.
(
In ZvZ, it's almost always a bad idea to hatch first. What you should do is pool first, then go for blings. THEN you can expand. Make sure that you keep your drone count up as well as an ample amount of blings/lings at your base. Make roaches if you want to as well. The blings (If you can use them effectively) can kill any ling opening. Literally. One blings if used correctly can kill an insane amount of lings. By then they will be on the defensive. I actually find ZvZ to just be straightforward. This is how the game usuallly goes. Both players open with roaches, the do combat, and retreat. They then proceed to tech to Mutas/Hydras, and the player with the most units and the most upgraded units will win the game.
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I say as it stands now, just pick the build you are best at and go with it in ZvZ. It is a rock-paper-scissors type deal anyway. What I know is that typically if I one base, whether it be roaches, lings, or ling/bling I'll usually hit in time to beat a FE and that is the timing I'll go for. The rest of the time it is 1 base v 1 base and I hope I picked the right build(I usually find Roach beats bling/ling, and bling/ling beats ling, and mass ling can overrun roach if early enough before that critical number of roaches is out).
I hardly even scout in ZvZ anymore. I just pick one of my 1 base builds, mass up fast and attack. And if it is a 2 player map I def don't scout because I'd rather have the extra resources.
I don't know if there is such a thing as a safe opening in this match-up. Roaches might be the best bet although u are vulnerable for a period of time. The safest thing to do might be to just 6 pool all the time, at least if you do that you know you are covered if you get 6 pooled.
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I think a lot of players are ignoring the fact that a hatch first build order is only SLIGHTLY economically ahead of for example a 13 pool 16 hatch build order. So since the only problem for hatch first seems to be a 6 pool you can just 13 pool and then time your scout in a way that you can decide on what to do (14-15 gas for roaches or 16 hatch. In the absolute worst case scenario you have to cancel your hatch and try to micro your way out of the cheese all in, however as we've seen in Korea, quite a few top players go for Speedling/Baneling with a quick hatch before the actual micro wars commence.
Here's the thread.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167577
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On November 16 2010 07:16 FLuE wrote:
I say as it stands now, just pick the build you are best at and go with it in ZvZ. It is a rock-paper-scissors type deal anyway. What I know is that typically if I one base, whether it be roaches, lings, or ling/bling I'll usually hit in time to beat a FE and that is the timing I'll go for. The rest of the time it is 1 base v 1 base and I hope I picked the right build(I usually find Roach beats bling/ling, and bling/ling beats ling, and mass ling can overrun roach if early enough before that critical number of roaches is out).
I hardly even scout in ZvZ anymore. I just pick one of my 1 base builds, mass up fast and attack. And if it is a 2 player map I def don't scout because I'd rather have the extra resources.
I don't know if there is such a thing as a safe opening in this match-up. Roaches might be the best bet although u are vulnerable for a period of time. The safest thing to do might be to just 6 pool all the time, at least if you do that you know you are covered if you get 6 pooled.
If your ling/bling is losing to roaches you aren't scouting at the right time or aren't responding correctly. If you scout roaches (the warren, if you scout and see roaches you're too late) use your first vomit for drones, cancel your baneling nest, and make a roach warren. Noncommittally pressure with the lings (but don't lose them) to force him to make at least some lings. From there your overlord positioning and decision making skills are put to the test. It takes a bunch of practice, but you can keep up in roach count going forward while also having a better chance to tech, upgrade, or expand due to the extra drones you made at the beginning. The tricky part is that even if there's no aggression you need to be able to keep competitive in roach count without overproducing roaches until you plan to move out and attack. An overseer is really useful in roach vs roach mid games because you can't always tell if they went 4 roaches -> mutas or if they're staying roaches.
Also position your roaches correctly! If he pushes out early you may be down 1-3 roaches, but you do have a defenders advantage if you position correctly. His roaches at some point need to unball and get into a concave while your roaches can start in a concave. This gives you a huge advantage that can easily overcome the 1-3 roaches you are missing. You can also bring in your queen to help DPS so long as you can pull her away (she CANNOT die).
Also roaches + a few lings beat pure roaches of a comparable #. The lings take a ton of roach damage (6 roach hits for 50mins, comparatively 1 roach dies in 9 hits). So those early lings help if he pushes out early. If he tries to cut early lings himself (and goes straight roaches) either he pooled early so your economy is better or you have a window where you can pressure with your initial lings due to his lackluster defenses.
The moral of the story is don't jump to the idea that it's a build order loss. Really examine what you can do to control better.
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On November 16 2010 07:25 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 07:16 FLuE wrote:
I say as it stands now, just pick the build you are best at and go with it in ZvZ. It is a rock-paper-scissors type deal anyway. What I know is that typically if I one base, whether it be roaches, lings, or ling/bling I'll usually hit in time to beat a FE and that is the timing I'll go for. The rest of the time it is 1 base v 1 base and I hope I picked the right build(I usually find Roach beats bling/ling, and bling/ling beats ling, and mass ling can overrun roach if early enough before that critical number of roaches is out).
I hardly even scout in ZvZ anymore. I just pick one of my 1 base builds, mass up fast and attack. And if it is a 2 player map I def don't scout because I'd rather have the extra resources.
I don't know if there is such a thing as a safe opening in this match-up. Roaches might be the best bet although u are vulnerable for a period of time. The safest thing to do might be to just 6 pool all the time, at least if you do that you know you are covered if you get 6 pooled. If your ling/bling is losing to roaches you aren't scouting at the right time or aren't responding correctly. If you scout roaches (the warren, if you scout and see roaches you're too late) use your first vomit for drones, cancel your baneling nest, and make a roach warren. Noncommittally pressure with the lings (but don't lose them) to force him to make at least some lings. From there your overlord positioning and decision making skills are put to the test. It takes a bunch of practice, but you can keep up in roach count going forward while also having a better chance to tech, upgrade, or expand due to the extra drones you made at the beginning. The tricky part is that even if there's no aggression you need to be able to keep competitive in roach count without overproducing roaches until you plan to move out and attack. An overseer is really useful in roach vs roach mid games because you can't always tell if they went 4 roaches -> mutas or if they're staying roaches. Also position your roaches correctly! If he pushes out early you may be down 1-3 roaches, but you do have a defenders advantage if you position correctly. His roaches at some point need to unball and get into a concave while your roaches can start in a concave. This gives you a huge advantage that can easily overcome the 1-3 roaches you are missing. You can also bring in your queen to help DPS so long as you can pull her away (she CANNOT die). Also roaches + a few lings beat pure roaches of a comparable #. The lings take a ton of roach damage (6 roach hits for 50mins, comparatively 1 roach dies in 9 hits). So those early lings help if he pushes out early. If he tries to cut early lings himself (and goes straight roaches) either he pooled early so your economy is better or you have a window where you can pressure with your initial lings due to his lackluster defenses. The moral of the story is don't jump to the idea that it's a build order loss. Really examine what you can do to control better.
This guy pretty much nailed it. That is how my decision making generally works, and if your opponent is going roach, it means he will pool at a normal time (14 later), and you can hatch first if you want...
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Yeah it is a great post but it assumes you are able to see the warren.
Most good players are going to wait till they clear the scouting drone to drop their bling nest or their warren so there aren't many games you'll see which one it is or if it is just lings and maybe a fast lair tech.
I personally just don't like playing ZvZ from a reactionary point of view, do that enough already in the other MUs. I find that even if I do get the scout off or know what is coming I'm behind where I want to be so I'd rather just pick a plan and go with it.
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Your initial lings can scout it and it should be your #1 priority with your initial lings. I don't even send a drone scout in ZvZ because it never tells me anything that changes how I would play.
Yeah it's a reactionary style, but the way I see it reactionary is zerg's strength and why would you try to work against that.
Also I highly recommend the ZvZ games from MLG Dallas. There aren't many big name vs big name ZvZs, but there's still a ton of games. IdrA played 2-4 sets of ZvZ for example.
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You absolutely can hatch first if they pool first. I'm getting pretty decent at ZvZ now. I'm ~1700 btw
If they pool 14 or later, you can hatch first. This means they will have ling speed + blings before you - you CANNOT leave your base until you have speed, or once his speed finishes any lings you have on the field will die, he will come to your base, morph 1 bling, and then take down your hatch. GG
@ pwnasaurus
. I like going 9 pool ZvZ and have never lost to hatch first. Granted im only 1600 plat( dunno why i havnt gone to diamond yet) but it seems its always an easy win if they go hatch first or an huge micro fight to get a spine down or finish off a few probes and i move on to roachs if i can. Why would hatch first ever work against a 9 pool?
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~2200 Zerg Player
Some might hate on me for posting my rating but most like to know where the opinion comes from. I'll throw out what I do. I win 4 of 5 zvz games against 2200-2400 players but have trouble with zvt currently at that level. Anyway... I do this build every game as if it's standard and have my adaptions based on what I see.
14 pool
drone - 14
drone - 15
15 gas
drone - 15
15 - ovie
Now, here is where you have to wait a split second and use your ovie to scout for lings coming. You should have seen them by now or be seeing them if he pooled before 10. If you see lings, defend with more lings and get a queen. You should be able to defend with drones/lings and be ahead in economy. If not,
15 queen and 15 lings (just two) - 18
The two lings go out purely to scout what your opponent is doing. Note you should be able to know with your ovie if he hatched first. I'll explain how to react with different scenarios.
1) Opponent went hatch first. Get enough gas to get both speedlings AND +1 attack for lings. Take drones off of gas and your goal is to AT LEAST take out his hatch. You will expand yourself and if you can't win prepare to enter mass roaches phase.
2) Opponent is going ling/bling. This requires a lot of micro but you should win. Get both roaches and bling. You will just defend with roaches and a few (only a few) blings of your own.
3) Opponent is going roaches. Put down your roach warren and take your natural. You have to scout well to know how many and when to pump roaches. I try to get speed for roaches and +1.
A few things you must be aware of...
a) If he drone scouts you much earlier than your 14 pool you must put down your pool. Any reason for him to scout that early has hurt his economy and it likely some sort of early pool/spine crawler.
b) Your main objective is to macro to roaches that are upgraded and win. If he is going mutas then you need to scout well enough to know when to hit him. If there are tons of spines and he's going to mutas then just get queens and hydras.
c) Spread out your ovies! You want to see the entire path from him to you. Once you are ready to make your roach push you want to be able to creep the entire path.
Other than that, you play the same you normally would. Drone when you can and get +1 upgrades for roaches. I like speed and burrow for them so that I can run away and heal faster.
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![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-166154.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-166155.jpg)
Here are a couple of examples by the way...
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And one more for muta transition...
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-166177.jpg)
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Lately I've been trying out the 11 pool as a standard opening in all matchups, and its working out great, even played out as an eco-build. It wasnt meant specifially against Zerg, but is a safe opening without many sacrifices. It just has a nice flow :D
The opening build order is
11/10 Overlord
11/10 Pool (as overlord finishes)
(~13) Scout
15 Extractor
15 Queen
17 Zergling (hunt enemy scout, scout again / get watchtowers)
18 Overlord
~20 Queen (as first finishes)
~23 Speed (at 100 gas, take 2 off gas afterwards)
23 Overlord
At this point should have scouted some information on the enemy, spreading creep with 2-3 tumors and make your decisions with your first three waves of Larvae - this is my favourite part of the build ;>
1. Wave: Drones or rushed Zerglings
I usually make those all drones, giving me the economy boost for the next two waves. But in ZvZ a hatch first build can quickly be punished by a swarm of zerglings or kill an early rush.
2. Wave: Speedlings
Those zerglings pop about the time speed finishes, so you can gain mapcontrol, scout and harrass.
If you invested the first wave in Drones, you'll have enough minerals to expand while producing the zerglings. Its also a good idea to put 3 on Gas again and make up to 3 creep tumors before bringing your second queen to the new hatch.
3. Wave: Transist
Another usually-drones-wave for me, so I can saturate the soon-to-be-expansion well. Although again you can decide to reinforce your attack with more speedlings - this works especially well if you build a baneling nest during the second wave. Also: Lair and maybe roach warren and/or additional extractors.
From there on, its whatever you want. You got a good economy on 2 bases with 2 queens and some speedlings on the field, possibly even applied light pressure.
The fun thing is, the early pool works a bit like a bluff, so you can actually drone rather greedy, but your enemy often expects early pressure. Early zergling rushes aren't much of a problem and still I manage to get ahead of many zergs in economy, because the expansion timing fits in with the drone count so nice.
Here are some recent replays, I'm currently ~1600 Diamond. Not all of those games worked out as planned after the opening since I'm still experimenting there, but they still show the nice timings of the builds pretty good (and how much I <3 infestors in ZvZ).
Infestorplay
While my enemy expected an early rush, I droned and expanded, then pressured him with zergling/baneling while transisting into Infestors and Hydras. This one worked out great.
7 Pool Defense
I hold off a 7 pool + spinecrawler rush - killing him in the process.
Infestor Comeback
My opponent plays hatch first, but I fail to do enough damage. Soon, I even lose my expand. But later I manage a crazy comeback by 'infesting' most of his bases while enduring his attacks.
Loss to roach push
A death to 1-base-roach push, because I failed at decision making. Could have done way more damage with my early speedlings and droned to hard while he build up roaches. Still nice to see the comparison.
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12 hatch roach is pretty sexy on maps where its easy to defend expos. On maps like scrap or Jungle basin I think most zergs opt for 16 hatch anways, which I have been seeing more prevalently lately. I think zergs are wanting to sit down and actually play a macro based (And rather fun) game. The funny part is that mid lategame ZvZ, there are now well established timings so after big battles you will tend to sit off a bunch of bases (3-4) until whoever outmuscles the other wins.
Ive found that you can defend the 7 RR incredibly easily with speedling roach, unfortunately not pure speedlings really because 7 is a lot early game and you can't produce a million lings as of yet. With the lings absorbing hits, your own roaches can attack.
I think when zerg's scout FE's, they either choose to go for aggression or expand themselves, and in reality 13 pool 15 hatch isn't THAT horribly far behind 15 hatch first, sure a little bit, but its what happens immediately afterward is what really matters.
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(1600 Diamond player) My ZvZ goal is to go muta/ling/bling, because while roach/infestor is the better unit comp I feel like having map control makes up for it. What I'll do for my opening on every map but shakuras is 14 pool 13 gas (on shakuras I 14 hatch 13 pool 12 gas then spend first 50 gas on bling nest, and make blings to defend ling pressure.) With my first 4-6 lings I'll attack my opponent (cautiously, dont wanna lose em all). If I see lings, I'll continue making blings and lings. If I see roaches, I'll start my lair, poop a tumor (so I can have creep @ ramp for spines, to prevent runbys), and build 2-4 spines depending on how many roaches I see, how many lings I have and in the end what I can afford. When I start my lair, I throw down a second gas so I can have 200 when lair pops, and when I get sufficient mutas (I usually start +1 asap on spire) I'll expo.
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On November 16 2010 09:34 jdseemoreglass wrote:I'm tired of people saying ZvZ is rock, paper, scissors. I do the same exact build 100% of ZvZ games and I win about 85% of them. Check my posts and replays in this thread for the new gold standard in ZvZ. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167807¤tpage=2#29I will add another replay to the thread now against an aggressive 1-base muta play.
9 overlord
13 extractor > transfer 3
12 spawning pool
@100 gas metabolic boost
Metabolic boost finishes at 4:37. Speedlings would arrive 30 seconds earlier than with ParadiseX's build order.
I think low eco / early gas and speed is an equilibrium in the Zerg mirror. Roaches are also good, but almost always pop out very slow, when more and more speedlings and banelings arrive. They are often not able to protect the workers against banelings.
How do you protect your workers from banelings, anyway? Six banes are almost always the worker's demise.
And how do you react to something like 8 pool with drone all-in, 4 or 6 zerglings and an offensive spine crawler?
e: In the long term I often prefer to go roach / hydra with upgrades. If either banelings or mutalisks are on the field, fungal growth will have a devastating effect on them.
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On November 16 2010 09:46 LoVeBrasiL wrote:
~2200 Zerg Player
Some might hate on me for posting my rating but most like to know where the opinion comes from. I'll throw out what I do. I win 4 of 5 zvz games against 2200-2400 players but have trouble with zvt currently at that level. Anyway... I do this build every game as if it's standard and have my adaptions based on what I see.
14 pool
drone - 14
drone - 15
15 gas
drone - 15
15 - ovie
Now, here is where you have to wait a split second and use your ovie to scout for lings coming. You should have seen them by now or be seeing them if he pooled before 10. If you see lings, defend with more lings and get a queen. You should be able to defend with drones/lings and be ahead in economy. If not,
15 queen and 15 lings (just two) - 18
The two lings go out purely to scout what your opponent is doing. Note you should be able to know with your ovie if he hatched first. I'll explain how to react with different scenarios.
1) Opponent went hatch first. Get enough gas to get both speedlings AND +1 attack for lings. Take drones off of gas and your goal is to AT LEAST take out his hatch. You will expand yourself and if you can't win prepare to enter mass roaches phase.
2) Opponent is going ling/bling. This requires a lot of micro but you should win. Get both roaches and bling. You will just defend with roaches and a few (only a few) blings of your own.
3) Opponent is going roaches. Put down your roach warren and take your natural. You have to scout well to know how many and when to pump roaches. I try to get speed for roaches and +1.
A few things you must be aware of...
a) If he drone scouts you much earlier than your 14 pool you must put down your pool. Any reason for him to scout that early has hurt his economy and it likely some sort of early pool/spine crawler.
b) Your main objective is to macro to roaches that are upgraded and win. If he is going mutas then you need to scout well enough to know when to hit him. If there are tons of spines and he's going to mutas then just get queens and hydras.
c) Spread out your ovies! You want to see the entire path from him to you. Once you are ready to make your roach push you want to be able to creep the entire path.
Other than that, you play the same you normally would. Drone when you can and get +1 upgrades for roaches. I like speed and burrow for them so that I can run away and heal faster.
I like what you mentioned, but need some clarification. When the opponent goes hatch first, you also have to make a hatch? Also I see some progamers going hatch first at 15 then pool at 14 then gas at 13 basically all down at once. Is that because of scouting and trying to mirror or what is that? I just saw a game where iDra dominated CatZ it was a 13 pool vs an 8 pool, and the 13 pool (iDra) won...some micro helped where he lost barely anything to banelings, but i think it's the econ that really kicked in toward the end...
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When your opponent goes hatch first you will pull your drones off of gas once you have upgraded speed and +1. You will have more mineral income than your one queen can make larvae. So while you are harassing with your lings (threatening to destroy his hatch) you are forcing him to not make drones and you put down your hatch as well. Once the hatch is down your drones go back onto gas. The idea is to destroy his hatch but worst case scenario be equal with your own expansion.
It's not that 15 hatch 14 pool isn't viable but they are risking the fact that their opponent is going to do a later pool. The build I use is adaptable to your opponent while maintaining the ability to defend early pool builds and yet still be in the game economically.
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13/14 pool is the completely safe build. You will not outright die to any other build assuming you have decent decision-making and micro. 14/15 hatch is greedy. 6-10 pool is aggressive. This is the exact same situation as BW, where 12 pool was safe, 12 hatch greedy, and 9 pool aggressive.
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I am able to always beat significally higher rated players in my ZvZ.
I usually go for roaches, but get a few lings at first to scout. If the other players are going lings, I will match them with lings until I feel I can pop out enough to roaches to completely counter. Then I upgrade quick and transition into Hydra/roach. Blings are hardly used on my part unless to counter enemy lings in mid-late game which they make to counter hydras.
But ultimately, I feel roaches is always the safest bet, but try to RUSH roaches, react to your opponent accordingly.
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On November 16 2010 13:35 Enervate wrote:
13/14 pool is the completely safe build. You will not outright die to any other build assuming you have decent decision-making and micro. 14/15 hatch is greedy. 6-10 pool is aggressive. This is the exact same situation as BW, where 12 pool was safe, 12 hatch greedy, and 9 pool aggressive.
Dying outright is not the issue. In BW, Hatchery first means more money and more larvae, which means more drones, more Zerglings, and more Mutalisks. Unless you can kill your opponent dead before those materialize, opening pool first puts you at a significant disadvantage at the one minute mark; you just don't actually get the "game over" pop-up until many minutes later. (assuming you don't really outplay your opponent to make up for the disadvantage)
The Queen mechanic adds a significant wrinkle that wasn't present in Brood War, that I think has the potential to change the equation. The advantage to Hatchery first advantage is no longer "more money and more larvae", it is just "more money". It may be possible that a Pool first build can race against the clock, and punish Hatchery first before it can manage to turn "more money" into "more larvae" or some other significant advantage.
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This match up is not luck based what so ever. Many players at the upper tier are still not that good at ZvZ plain and simple. I'll go ahead and toss my build but will not go into explaining the details of the build or how to deal with the various strategies as this build is 100% my own. I will say however that I have the ability to deal with any possible opening Z does. Some are more difficult to deal with while others are easier.
9 ovy
14 gas
14 pool
15 ovy (stop drones)
100 gas for speed then move back to minerals
queen
ling until 21/22
hatch at expo
22ish ovy
continue zlings
Everything after this is based upon your opponents reaction. You make the adjustments for what your vsing after the base build however this build guarantee's 100% safe fast expand. My win ratio in ZvZ is around 85%+ so if you still want to call it luck then I must be just really lucky.
I have stopped the following builds against 2300+ Z players with this build.
6 pool
6 pool (+ Drones + Spine)
7 pool
9 pool
9 pool into banes
14 gas 14 pool (Banes)
14 pool 14 gas (Roaches)
14 hatch 14 pool
Fast Muta Tech
Roaches with +1 / speed
Roaches + Bane
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Honestly I think the wide variety of answers in here from people who are totally sure their opening is the best is proof there is no best one. At least not at the moment
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Watch this! most annoying boring game ever
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2765
imo, one of them should have gone roach a LOT earlier, when the game falls into ling/bling battles, its just pointless imo be stubborn and insist on whos gonna get luckier with busts
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On November 16 2010 14:04 Sanasante wrote:
This match up is not luck based what so ever. Many players at the upper tier are still not that good at ZvZ plain and simple. I'll go ahead and toss my build but will not go into explaining the details of the build or how to deal with the various strategies as this build is 100% my own. I will say however that I have the ability to deal with any possible opening Z does. Some are more difficult to deal with while others are easier.
9 ovy
14 gas
14 pool
15 ovy (stop drones)
100 gas for speed then move back to minerals
queen
ling until 21/22
hatch at expo
22ish ovy
continue zlings
Everything after this is based upon your opponents reaction. You make the adjustments for what your vsing after the base build however this build guarantee's 100% safe fast expand. My win ratio in ZvZ is around 85%+ so if you still want to call it luck then I must be just really lucky.
I have stopped the following builds against 2300+ Z players with this build.
6 pool
6 pool (+ Drones + Spine)
7 pool
9 pool
9 pool into banes
14 gas 14 pool (Banes)
14 pool 14 gas (Roaches)
14 hatch 14 pool
Fast Muta Tech
Roaches with +1 / speed
Roaches + Bane
what you're doing is the standard speedling expand, and the fact that you beat baneling or roach +1 builds with it does not mean much. Roaches, without speed, with +1 attack totally rape any kind of zergling opener, your best chance is some base trade with spines and sneaking a +1 carapace in the meantime or something like that. Also the standrad baneling is good vs this build, not auto win, but very good. Roach & Bane can totally beat it too.
I beat abnelings with mass lings and 8pool-crawlers with hatch first, sometimes it just happens, it doesnt mean my build was good against those.
If you could know for sure which one of the above 3 builds are coming from a 1 base zerg, you can stop it, but there's hardly any way to spot it on most maps. Also Hatch first it's absolutely better then this, once the "hatch-firsting" player knows how to react.
It's an ok build, nowhere near safe, nowhere near as eco heavy as hatch first.
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On November 16 2010 07:25 ChickenLips wrote:I think a lot of players are ignoring the fact that a hatch first build order is only SLIGHTLY economically ahead of for example a 13 pool 16 hatch build order. So since the only problem for hatch first seems to be a 6 pool you can just 13 pool and then time your scout in a way that you can decide on what to do (14-15 gas for roaches or 16 hatch. In the absolute worst case scenario you have to cancel your hatch and try to micro your way out of the cheese all in, however as we've seen in Korea, quite a few top players go for Speedling/Baneling with a quick hatch before the actual micro wars commence. Here's the thread. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167577
if you go for 13 pool and 14-15 gas you're going to have a HUGE, HUGE disadvantage to ling/bling builds. against a good, well microing player, you're going to lose almost instantly with that kind of a delayed gas, because you'll have super late speed and very few banelings.
there's a reason the standard BO for ling/bling includes gas-before-pool.
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On November 16 2010 16:27 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 14:04 Sanasante wrote:
This match up is not luck based what so ever. Many players at the upper tier are still not that good at ZvZ plain and simple. I'll go ahead and toss my build but will not go into explaining the details of the build or how to deal with the various strategies as this build is 100% my own. I will say however that I have the ability to deal with any possible opening Z does. Some are more difficult to deal with while others are easier.
9 ovy
14 gas
14 pool
15 ovy (stop drones)
100 gas for speed then move back to minerals
queen
ling until 21/22
hatch at expo
22ish ovy
continue zlings
Everything after this is based upon your opponents reaction. You make the adjustments for what your vsing after the base build however this build guarantee's 100% safe fast expand. My win ratio in ZvZ is around 85%+ so if you still want to call it luck then I must be just really lucky.
I have stopped the following builds against 2300+ Z players with this build.
6 pool
6 pool (+ Drones + Spine)
7 pool
9 pool
9 pool into banes
14 gas 14 pool (Banes)
14 pool 14 gas (Roaches)
14 hatch 14 pool
Fast Muta Tech
Roaches with +1 / speed
Roaches + Bane what you're doing is the standard speedling expand, and the fact that you beat baneling or roach +1 builds with it does not mean much. Roaches, without speed, with +1 attack totally rape any kind of zergling opener, your best chance is some base trade with spines and sneaking a +1 carapace in the meantime or something like that. Also the standrad baneling is good vs this build, not auto win, but very good. Roach & Bane can totally beat it too. I beat abnelings with mass lings and 8pool-crawlers with hatch first, sometimes it just happens, it doesnt mean my build was good against those. If you could know for sure which one of the above 3 builds are coming from a 1 base zerg, you can stop it, but there's hardly any way to spot it on most maps. Also Hatch first it's absolutely better then this, once the "hatch-firsting" player knows how to react. It's an ok build, nowhere near safe, nowhere near as eco heavy as hatch first.
The point of the build is the hatch. If your opponent goes Roach + Bane which a smart player will do it is actually an auto loss for them vs me every single time. The main reason why being that their army is slow and unenforceable. Minimize losses vs Banes and its easy win. This is not hard vs roaches with or without speed and or +1 as you actually do not have to continue massing lings the entire game. There is no timing attack that should catch you off guard when they go roaches. Just because a build sounds good on paper does not mean its good in application. The point of speedlings is in fact their speed. Look how Foxer/MvP revolutionized the Marine. Don't be blind by saying this vs that is win.
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There is so much non- and half-knowledge floating around in this thread, its horrible. you can scout a little after 9 on LT and meta and still see whether the opponent 6 pools before you place down the hatch first.
To me it is very unclear whether roach or a ling baneling opening is favorable. I think that if the one getting the lings actually builds a few banelings, he is behind because they are pretty useless against the roaches.
In ZvZ you often lose because of "small" mistakes or a hard to scout timingpush, which is why you need alot of games to actually find out what builds are truely superior.
What BO is good is also extremely map dependant.
On November 16 2010 14:04 Sanasante wrote:
This match up is not luck based what so ever. Many players at the upper tier are still not that good at ZvZ plain and simple. I'll go ahead and toss my build but will not go into explaining the details of the build or how to deal with the various strategies as this build is 100% my own. I will say however that I have the ability to deal with any possible opening Z does. Some are more difficult to deal with while others are easier.
9 ovy
14 gas
14 pool
15 ovy (stop drones)
100 gas for speed then move back to minerals
queen
ling until 21/22
hatch at expo
22ish ovy
continue zlings
Everything after this is based upon your opponents reaction. You make the adjustments for what your vsing after the base build however this build guarantee's 100% safe fast expand. My win ratio in ZvZ is around 85%+ so if you still want to call it luck then I must be just really lucky.
I have stopped the following builds against 2300+ Z players with this build.
6 pool
6 pool (+ Drones + Spine)
7 pool
9 pool
9 pool into banes
14 gas 14 pool (Banes)
14 pool 14 gas (Roaches)
14 hatch 14 pool
Fast Muta Tech
Roaches with +1 / speed
Roaches + Bane
good luck defending against a well executed ling baneling with that. 2300+ means nothing. I've had a 2350 Z go for iInbase Hatch first on Scrap Station against me.
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On November 16 2010 23:49 DarKFoRcE wrote:There is so much non- and half-knowledge floating around in this thread, its horrible. you can scout a little after 9 on LT and meta and still see whether the opponent 6 pools before you place down the hatch first. To me it is very unclear whether roach or a ling baneling opening is favorable. I think that if the one getting the lings actually builds a few banelings, he is behind because they are pretty useless against the roaches. In ZvZ you often lose because of "small" mistakes or a hard to scout timingpush, which is why you need alot of games to actually find out what builds are truely superior. What BO is good is also extremely map dependant. Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 14:04 Sanasante wrote:
This match up is not luck based what so ever. Many players at the upper tier are still not that good at ZvZ plain and simple. I'll go ahead and toss my build but will not go into explaining the details of the build or how to deal with the various strategies as this build is 100% my own. I will say however that I have the ability to deal with any possible opening Z does. Some are more difficult to deal with while others are easier.
9 ovy
14 gas
14 pool
15 ovy (stop drones)
100 gas for speed then move back to minerals
queen
ling until 21/22
hatch at expo
22ish ovy
continue zlings
Everything after this is based upon your opponents reaction. You make the adjustments for what your vsing after the base build however this build guarantee's 100% safe fast expand. My win ratio in ZvZ is around 85%+ so if you still want to call it luck then I must be just really lucky.
I have stopped the following builds against 2300+ Z players with this build.
6 pool
6 pool (+ Drones + Spine)
7 pool
9 pool
9 pool into banes
14 gas 14 pool (Banes)
14 pool 14 gas (Roaches)
14 hatch 14 pool
Fast Muta Tech
Roaches with +1 / speed
Roaches + Bane good luck defending against a well executed ling baneling with that. 2300+ means nothing. I've had a 2350 Z go for iInbase Hatch first on Scrap Station against me.
I have faced well executed ling/bane and I can say that it is the most difficult to deal with. However once your 2nd hatchery pops you have a significant larva advantage at your disposal. Their is also something else to note. Banelings attack speed is around .5 of a second. You can actually cause them to detonate when moving your lings in and then out (Without losing 1 zergling). This becomes significantly harder when you are dealing with large numbers which is why I like to push little battles. The trick when going mass ling vs banelings is to keep your opponent defensive long enough to get a couple spine crawlers at your expansion then do a fast switch to roaches. If he still has not expanded then he will likely be going all in and you throw down a few more spines. 2300 May mean nothing but I was giving a general outline, I have beaten 2500 Zergs as well.
As I stated earlier. This is my own build. I took the original idea and made it into my own build that I have learned to evolve vs anything a zerg throws at me. This happens when you play 300+ games with a single build order and somehow... still manage to keep a 85% win ratio in a matchup that so many consider luck based.
I 100% agree with your first statement however with losing because of the small mistakes. I will not tell you the number of times I have attack moved my zerglings into the fog and ran straight into a baneling. Things happen and this matchup is extremely unforgiving.
If you would like we can ZvZ later to prove my point.
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On November 17 2010 00:14 Sanasante wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 23:49 DarKFoRcE wrote:There is so much non- and half-knowledge floating around in this thread, its horrible. you can scout a little after 9 on LT and meta and still see whether the opponent 6 pools before you place down the hatch first. To me it is very unclear whether roach or a ling baneling opening is favorable. I think that if the one getting the lings actually builds a few banelings, he is behind because they are pretty useless against the roaches. In ZvZ you often lose because of "small" mistakes or a hard to scout timingpush, which is why you need alot of games to actually find out what builds are truely superior. What BO is good is also extremely map dependant. On November 16 2010 14:04 Sanasante wrote:
This match up is not luck based what so ever. Many players at the upper tier are still not that good at ZvZ plain and simple. I'll go ahead and toss my build but will not go into explaining the details of the build or how to deal with the various strategies as this build is 100% my own. I will say however that I have the ability to deal with any possible opening Z does. Some are more difficult to deal with while others are easier.
9 ovy
14 gas
14 pool
15 ovy (stop drones)
100 gas for speed then move back to minerals
queen
ling until 21/22
hatch at expo
22ish ovy
continue zlings
Everything after this is based upon your opponents reaction. You make the adjustments for what your vsing after the base build however this build guarantee's 100% safe fast expand. My win ratio in ZvZ is around 85%+ so if you still want to call it luck then I must be just really lucky.
I have stopped the following builds against 2300+ Z players with this build.
6 pool
6 pool (+ Drones + Spine)
7 pool
9 pool
9 pool into banes
14 gas 14 pool (Banes)
14 pool 14 gas (Roaches)
14 hatch 14 pool
Fast Muta Tech
Roaches with +1 / speed
Roaches + Bane good luck defending against a well executed ling baneling with that. 2300+ means nothing. I've had a 2350 Z go for iInbase Hatch first on Scrap Station against me. I have faced well executed ling/bane and I can say that it is the most difficult to deal with. However once your 2nd hatchery pops you have a significant larva advantage at your disposal. Their is also something else to note. Banelings attack speed is around .5 of a second. You can actually cause them to detonate when moving your lings in and then out (Without losing 1 zergling). This becomes significantly harder when you are dealing with large numbers which is why I like to push little battles. The trick when going mass ling vs banelings is to keep your opponent defensive long enough to get a couple spine crawlers at your expansion then do a fast switch to roaches. If he still has not expanded then he will likely be going all in and you throw down a few more spines. 2300 May mean nothing but I was giving a general outline, I have beaten 2500 Zergs as well. As I stated earlier. This is my own build. I took the original idea and made it into my own build that I have learned to evolve vs anything a zerg throws at me. This happens when you play 300+ games with a single build order and somehow... still manage to keep a 85% win ratio in a matchup that so many consider luck based. I 100% agree with your first statement however with losing because of the small mistakes. I will not tell you the number of times I have attack moved my zerglings into the fog and ran straight into a baneling. Things happen and this matchup is extremely unforgiving. If you would like we can ZvZ later to prove my point.
You own build? That build is as standard as it gets. "I have not seen this piece of land before, therefore i discoverd it",
Might be smurf but ure going to argue with potentially aTnDarKFoRcE ?
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This is not an argument it is a discussion. I am well aware of who Darkforce is as well as how he is considered one of the best Zergs outside of Korea. I am not disagreeing with almost anything he posted minus one point.
If I had not been playing on a 2000 level for over a month vs some of the best zergs on my particular ladder I would have already conceded my point purely based on who he is and his superior status alone. However the majority of my games I have vsed against in ZvZ are vs Banelings. I may not have played many players at Darkforces particular level but I have played vs some that are close. I am not saying my build is perfect or that I never lose to banelings, however I can stop them dead cold if I do not make any small micro mistakes. The more and more I have used this build the more and more times I have been in scary situations vs banelings, the better my micro has gotten because of it.
The standard build order is not my own. How I play after the 4 minute mark is however my own style and I have yet to see a single zerg player do it.
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On November 16 2010 14:04 Sanasante wrote:
This match up is not luck based what so ever. Many players at the upper tier are still not that good at ZvZ plain and simple. I'll go ahead and toss my build but will not go into explaining the details of the build or how to deal with the various strategies as this build is 100% my own. I will say however that I have the ability to deal with any possible opening Z does. Some are more difficult to deal with while others are easier.
The part you are not explaining is precisely the part that is of interest. On the surface, your build appears significantly disadvantaged against a Hatchery first build. (And according to the previous poster, also disadvantaged against Banelings, but that's not an issue I have the knowledge to discuss) Let's say he goes Hatchery first but otherwise plays similarly to your strategy.
The main question of interest is whether your opening book includes something like a timing attack that allows you to achieve parity or even an advantage, or if your 85% win rate is due to some you outplaying your opponent.
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i feel like there are a lot of platinum/lower levels stating "opinions" in here. I think a lot of things written in this thread are proven by nothing but personal preference and practice against AI :S
it is very hard to distinguish between good and bad advice and i would recommend that perhaps noone below at least the level of the thread-starter would post his BO in here. Im very interested in this subject but statements like "you can NEVERRRRRR hatch first; you will lose EVERYTIME with this build vs this build" just makes me mad :s
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i wasn't aware there was a safe opening in zvz 
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I like the 12 pool into 4 banelings bust. The pb is even if i succeed with by killing some drones, it's doesn't give a very big advantage.
They already have a better eco and are getting roach to close the ramp. So they redrone and tech safely with no pb.
I win sometimes because, a lot of player resigns if you kill half of their drones.
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On November 17 2010 00:14 Sanasante wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 23:49 DarKFoRcE wrote:There is so much non- and half-knowledge floating around in this thread, its horrible. you can scout a little after 9 on LT and meta and still see whether the opponent 6 pools before you place down the hatch first. To me it is very unclear whether roach or a ling baneling opening is favorable. I think that if the one getting the lings actually builds a few banelings, he is behind because they are pretty useless against the roaches. In ZvZ you often lose because of "small" mistakes or a hard to scout timingpush, which is why you need alot of games to actually find out what builds are truely superior. What BO is good is also extremely map dependant. On November 16 2010 14:04 Sanasante wrote:
This match up is not luck based what so ever. Many players at the upper tier are still not that good at ZvZ plain and simple. I'll go ahead and toss my build but will not go into explaining the details of the build or how to deal with the various strategies as this build is 100% my own. I will say however that I have the ability to deal with any possible opening Z does. Some are more difficult to deal with while others are easier.
9 ovy
14 gas
14 pool
15 ovy (stop drones)
100 gas for speed then move back to minerals
queen
ling until 21/22
hatch at expo
22ish ovy
continue zlings
Everything after this is based upon your opponents reaction. You make the adjustments for what your vsing after the base build however this build guarantee's 100% safe fast expand. My win ratio in ZvZ is around 85%+ so if you still want to call it luck then I must be just really lucky.
I have stopped the following builds against 2300+ Z players with this build.
6 pool
6 pool (+ Drones + Spine)
7 pool
9 pool
9 pool into banes
14 gas 14 pool (Banes)
14 pool 14 gas (Roaches)
14 hatch 14 pool
Fast Muta Tech
Roaches with +1 / speed
Roaches + Bane good luck defending against a well executed ling baneling with that. 2300+ means nothing. I've had a 2350 Z go for iInbase Hatch first on Scrap Station against me. I have faced well executed ling/bane and I can say that it is the most difficult to deal with. However once your 2nd hatchery pops you have a significant larva advantage at your disposal. Their is also something else to note. Banelings attack speed is around .5 of a second. You can actually cause them to detonate when moving your lings in and then out (Without losing 1 zergling). This becomes significantly harder when you are dealing with large numbers which is why I like to push little battles. The trick when going mass ling vs banelings is to keep your opponent defensive long enough to get a couple spine crawlers at your expansion then do a fast switch to roaches. If he still has not expanded then he will likely be going all in and you throw down a few more spines. 2300 May mean nothing but I was giving a general outline, I have beaten 2500 Zergs as well. As I stated earlier. This is my own build. I took the original idea and made it into my own build that I have learned to evolve vs anything a zerg throws at me. This happens when you play 300+ games with a single build order and somehow... still manage to keep a 85% win ratio in a matchup that so many consider luck based. I 100% agree with your first statement however with losing because of the small mistakes. I will not tell you the number of times I have attack moved my zerglings into the fog and ran straight into a baneling. Things happen and this matchup is extremely unforgiving. If you would like we can ZvZ later to prove my point.
Of course, as soon as you are able to get 1 or 2 spine crawlers at the expansion, you should be favorable. The thing is, there is a small timing window when your opponent has a good bunch more units than you (right after the inject pops) during which it is very difficult to defend against the banelings. Alot might come down to micro, and if you micro better than your opponent or if he does not react to your hatchery perfectly you can survive against it, but i personally have never lost in this spot from the perspective of the baneling player for quite a while, even though i think my ZvZ is actually fairly weak.
Just message me on bnet if you wanna try it out, im curious about it.
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On November 17 2010 01:27 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 00:14 Sanasante wrote:On November 16 2010 23:49 DarKFoRcE wrote:There is so much non- and half-knowledge floating around in this thread, its horrible. you can scout a little after 9 on LT and meta and still see whether the opponent 6 pools before you place down the hatch first. To me it is very unclear whether roach or a ling baneling opening is favorable. I think that if the one getting the lings actually builds a few banelings, he is behind because they are pretty useless against the roaches. In ZvZ you often lose because of "small" mistakes or a hard to scout timingpush, which is why you need alot of games to actually find out what builds are truely superior. What BO is good is also extremely map dependant. On November 16 2010 14:04 Sanasante wrote:
This match up is not luck based what so ever. Many players at the upper tier are still not that good at ZvZ plain and simple. I'll go ahead and toss my build but will not go into explaining the details of the build or how to deal with the various strategies as this build is 100% my own. I will say however that I have the ability to deal with any possible opening Z does. Some are more difficult to deal with while others are easier.
9 ovy
14 gas
14 pool
15 ovy (stop drones)
100 gas for speed then move back to minerals
queen
ling until 21/22
hatch at expo
22ish ovy
continue zlings
Everything after this is based upon your opponents reaction. You make the adjustments for what your vsing after the base build however this build guarantee's 100% safe fast expand. My win ratio in ZvZ is around 85%+ so if you still want to call it luck then I must be just really lucky.
I have stopped the following builds against 2300+ Z players with this build.
6 pool
6 pool (+ Drones + Spine)
7 pool
9 pool
9 pool into banes
14 gas 14 pool (Banes)
14 pool 14 gas (Roaches)
14 hatch 14 pool
Fast Muta Tech
Roaches with +1 / speed
Roaches + Bane good luck defending against a well executed ling baneling with that. 2300+ means nothing. I've had a 2350 Z go for iInbase Hatch first on Scrap Station against me. I have faced well executed ling/bane and I can say that it is the most difficult to deal with. However once your 2nd hatchery pops you have a significant larva advantage at your disposal. Their is also something else to note. Banelings attack speed is around .5 of a second. You can actually cause them to detonate when moving your lings in and then out (Without losing 1 zergling). This becomes significantly harder when you are dealing with large numbers which is why I like to push little battles. The trick when going mass ling vs banelings is to keep your opponent defensive long enough to get a couple spine crawlers at your expansion then do a fast switch to roaches. If he still has not expanded then he will likely be going all in and you throw down a few more spines. 2300 May mean nothing but I was giving a general outline, I have beaten 2500 Zergs as well. As I stated earlier. This is my own build. I took the original idea and made it into my own build that I have learned to evolve vs anything a zerg throws at me. This happens when you play 300+ games with a single build order and somehow... still manage to keep a 85% win ratio in a matchup that so many consider luck based. I 100% agree with your first statement however with losing because of the small mistakes. I will not tell you the number of times I have attack moved my zerglings into the fog and ran straight into a baneling. Things happen and this matchup is extremely unforgiving. If you would like we can ZvZ later to prove my point. Of course, as soon as you are able to get 1 or 2 spine crawlers at the expansion, you should be favorable. The thing is, there is a small timing window when your opponent has a good bunch more units than you (right after the inject pops) during which it is very difficult to defend against the banelings. Alot might come down to micro, and if you micro better than your opponent or if he does not react to your hatchery perfectly you can survive against it, but i personally have never lost in this spot from the perspective of the baneling player for quite a while, even though i think my ZvZ is actually fairly weak. Just message me on bnet if you wanna try it out, im curious about it.
I'm obviously not as highly rated as you, but your experiences echo my own. There's a window with the expansion where you can cause enough damage to even everything out if you control it well. I don't really know of any way the expanding player can stop this other than favorable positions on big maps or by having better micro.
Personally vs spine crawlers I've also had luck by delaying my aggression until I have a larger force. Even if he has more larva than you he's not going to have more gas. A larger # of banelings means you're still likely to win a confrontation over him, especially if he's pinned back to his natural.
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On November 17 2010 01:03 Sajiki wrote:
i feel like there are a lot of platinum/lower levels stating "opinions" in here. I think a lot of things written in this thread are proven by nothing but personal preference and practice against AI :S
it is very hard to distinguish between good and bad advice and i would recommend that perhaps noone below at least the level of the thread-starter would post his BO in here. Im very interested in this subject but statements like "you can NEVERRRRRR hatch first; you will lose EVERYTIME with this build vs this build" just makes me mad :s
This, so much this.
This is a problem with the strategy forum that have become worse and worse after release to the point where I don't bother reading them anymore, this topic just caught my eye on the left menu at random and I thought that maybe it could be interesting.
Good players don't want to post on these forums anymore because their posts gets drowned by ramblings from people who clearly have no clue but still post their opinons (based on their experience in gold league, low diamond, 2v2 or whatever) as if they were a fact. To find actual good advice you have to wade through post after post after post of pure garbage.
It took close to 24 hours and up until page 3 before anyone actually posted that you can in fact scout a 6-pool before deciding on going hatch first. That's just ridiculous.
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On November 17 2010 01:01 Hurkyl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 14:04 Sanasante wrote:
This match up is not luck based what so ever. Many players at the upper tier are still not that good at ZvZ plain and simple. I'll go ahead and toss my build but will not go into explaining the details of the build or how to deal with the various strategies as this build is 100% my own. I will say however that I have the ability to deal with any possible opening Z does. Some are more difficult to deal with while others are easier. The part you are not explaining is precisely the part that is of interest. On the surface, your build appears significantly disadvantaged against a Hatchery first build. (And according to the previous poster, also disadvantaged against Banelings, but that's not an issue I have the knowledge to discuss) Let's say he goes Hatchery first but otherwise plays similarly to your strategy. The main question of interest is whether your opening book includes something like a timing attack that allows you to achieve parity or even an advantage, or if your 85% win rate is due to some you outplaying your opponent.
Let me go ahead and explain. Hatchery first builds (Minus inside the main) are nearly 100% preventable if you send a scout drone (Right when you start your overlord). Typically maps that people FE on (Lost Temple, Metropolis, Shakuras, Jungle Basin) sometimes (Blistering, Scrap Station) and usually never (Xel-Naga or any close map) I don't usually play on Delta or Steps. You cannot prevent the expansion forever however you can delay it long enough to force a pool first.
The primary advantage of the build is it allows for an expansion at 21/22 Supply that cannot be directly killed with any build, effectively gaining a larva advantage over your opponent which can then be used to gain a significant advantage shortly after. This is the primary purpose of the build. The 2nd hatchery puts immense pressure on your opponent, which he can follow up with either expanding on his own, pushing all-in, or attempting to minimize your advantage through killing drones.
The "Speed" Zerglings allow you to effectively have map control. In fact if your opponent goes roaches if he attempts to leave his base at any point earlier on he will instantly lose. Your opponent cannot expand after you (for a long time) safely without you being able to kill him outright.
The variations of the build kick in when your opponent is attempting certain timing pushes after being turtled (+1 roaches for example).
Banelings are a very very slow unit compared to zerglings. I have recently been learning to more effectively deal with baneling play. The most important part I think of my play is scouting and overlord placement. This allows you to see if he is moving out early for a quick baneling morph near your base, which you can intercept (Before your speed pops). You want your opponents travel time to be maximized. This can allow you to force your opponent into being defensive or spending money on spines (Which he does not want to do).
I do however agree with Darkforce's comment above about the timing vulnerability during the larva inject. This build becomes powerful once the first larva inject finishes. I have learned to deal with this by pushing out with my slow lings.
I will say however the scariest moments is when your opponent goes 9 pool into fast banelings. I have faced a few people doing this and have not had an issue with it as of yet but I would like to try my build against this vs an exceptional player to see exactly how vulnerable I might be.
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I've actually been having some pretty decent zvz results around 2K level with a one base +1 speed/burrow roach timing push. It works best against people who go ling/baneling off 1 base IMO... you basically set up 1-2 early spinecrawlers, 1-2 queens and 2-3 roaches for early defense (can get away with less sometimes depending on how much pressure is being put on you.. you'd be surprised at how much two queens at the ramp along with 1 spine can hold off.. especially with transfuse) It's important you don't allow him to do a lot of damage with his early attacks.. just takes practice..
Once your ramp is secure you just pump drones until you are fully saturated on one base.. I'm talking at least two drones per mineral patch and both geysers going full blast. Against a zerg who goes 1 base early ling/baneling pressure you should have a superior economy. Then it's just straight up pure roach pump while also getting roach speed, +1 attack and burrow. You should push out as soon as upgrades are finished...
If he doesn't have mutas yet at this point.. it should basically be gg if you have good micro. Don't forget to use burrow against lings if he doesn't have an overseer(most zergs won't) If he went for like just MASS lings with no lair or anything then get BANELINGS.. I always cringe when I see z players losing to pure mass ling because all you need to do is get some banelings..
If he blocked off his ramp with spines you could be in trouble (if it's not blocked just run past spines).. you can research burrow movement and sneak under the spines, but it buys him more time to get mutas or whatever out.. so it's usually 50/50 chance of winning in this scenario
If he has mutas out before you get there it can get a little tricky.. Mutas mean he probably doesnt have a lot of lings so you should be able to just run into his main and force his mutas to attack your roaches. You should have a LOT of roaches and we all know how long it takes 5-6 mutas to kill 16+ roaches=) hopefully you should be able to do significant damage to his economy. You can also do cute things like burrow in his mineral line, then if his mutas head toward your main unburrow and just repeat. It basically forces him to leave his mutas at his base until he gets an overseer. Then just queen/spore up at your main and should be gg again.. it obviously doesn't work out everytime, but I've had pretty good success with it.
Again, IMO, the 1 base roach timing push shines the most against 1 basing ling/baneling players who go for a late expo. If they are doing any sort of early expo strategy then the build becomes very mediocore and difficult to win with. In that case I usually just transition into an expo myself or try to take out their expo. I do find a lot of zergs like going for early 1 base ling/baneling pressure builds though so 1 base roach definately has it's uses..
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On November 16 2010 06:19 gdTyrael wrote:Thats my point, imo its impossible to Hatch first in ZvZ unless both players hatch first Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 06:18 regulator_mk wrote:
Scout on 8. If you see early pool, don't go hatch first; if you don't see one, then go hatch first... even a 14 pool can finish off a hatch first. An agressive player will always beat it. PS: On a side note, you guys might have heard artosis in gsl saying that in korea you cant hatch first anymore against protoss and to terran cause you get cannon/bunker rushed. I think soon enough Zerg is not going to hatch first at all.
This is not correct, unless you're playing on Steps of War or some equally tiny map. He will have more larva to pump out lings and can just make spines at the natural. They aren't great against lings, but all he needs to do is survive the first 6 minutes and he'll be ahead, especially if you tried to put on the pressure with mass lings.
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On November 17 2010 02:18 Shika wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 01:03 Sajiki wrote:
i feel like there are a lot of platinum/lower levels stating "opinions" in here. I think a lot of things written in this thread are proven by nothing but personal preference and practice against AI :S
it is very hard to distinguish between good and bad advice and i would recommend that perhaps noone below at least the level of the thread-starter would post his BO in here. Im very interested in this subject but statements like "you can NEVERRRRRR hatch first; you will lose EVERYTIME with this build vs this build" just makes me mad :s This, so much this. This is a problem with the strategy forum that have become worse and worse after release to the point where I don't bother reading them anymore, this topic just caught my eye on the left menu at random and I thought that maybe it could be interesting. Good players don't want to post on these forums anymore because their posts gets drowned by ramblings from people who clearly have no clue but still post their opinons (based on their experience in gold league, low diamond, 2v2 or whatever) as if they were a fact. To find actual good advice you have to wade through post after post after post of pure garbage. It took close to 24 hours and up until page 3 before anyone actually posted that you can in fact scout a 6-pool before deciding on going hatch first. That's just ridiculous.
I have almost 100% stopped posting on TL because of this crystal clear post. Once in a while you find good players that post but not very often. I don't really consider anyone to be semi solid until around 1900 on ladder and even at that point there is so many 1900 players who make so many fundamental mistakes. The worst part is these players act authoritative even though their knowledge of the game is skewed and only half there.
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I'll preface this by saying I'm just a #1 Plat ranked player  (I can taste diamondy goodness)
Also, I SUCK at ZvZ. I'm probably 80-20 in ZvP and ZvT and like 20-80 ZvZ.
There is a "safe" build that I use from time to time, especially on Xel'Naga Caverns (I thumbs down the other 2p maps except scrap station) I think there is a thread someplace here that I can't find. (Link it if you find it)
It basically consists of 12 pool, 16 gas and 18 OV. The 12 pool is early enough that you can use 12-16 supply window to make lings if you need to to fend off an earlier pool, and you can be aggressive with banelings or roaches if you scout an econ build if you want.
I personally prefer 14 pool and then go from there.
Early game, I feel that ZvZ is a pure micro MU where the superior player usually wins. It's when you get into the midgame that scouting and macro wins it.
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On November 17 2010 02:37 Zorkmid wrote:I'll preface this by saying I'm just a #1 Plat ranked player (I can taste diamondy goodness) Also, I SUCK at ZvZ. I'm probably 80-20 in ZvP and ZvT and like 20-80 ZvZ. There is a "safe" build that I use from time to time, especially on Xel'Naga Caverns (I thumbs down the other 2p maps except scrap station) I think there is a thread someplace here that I can't find. (Link it if you find it) It basically consists of 12 pool, 16 gas and 18 OV. The 12 pool is early enough that you can use 12-16 supply window to make lings if you need to to fend off an earlier pool, and you can be aggressive with banelings or roaches if you scout an econ build if you want. I personally prefer 14 pool and then go from there. Early game, I feel that ZvZ is a pure micro MU where the superior player usually wins. It's when you get into the midgame that scouting and macro wins it.
Without wanting to offend you, but your "safe" build looks like total shit, why in gods name do you need a 12 pool to be "safe" on XNC?. Sometimes its better to say nothing. Especially when you are on rank #65435 in the ladder and in your own opinion suck at the matchup you want to talk about.
On November 17 2010 02:18 Shika wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 01:03 Sajiki wrote:
i feel like there are a lot of platinum/lower levels stating "opinions" in here. I think a lot of things written in this thread are proven by nothing but personal preference and practice against AI :S
it is very hard to distinguish between good and bad advice and i would recommend that perhaps noone below at least the level of the thread-starter would post his BO in here. Im very interested in this subject but statements like "you can NEVERRRRRR hatch first; you will lose EVERYTIME with this build vs this build" just makes me mad :s This, so much this. This is a problem with the strategy forum that have become worse and worse after release to the point where I don't bother reading them anymore, this topic just caught my eye on the left menu at random and I thought that maybe it could be interesting. Good players don't want to post on these forums anymore because their posts gets drowned by ramblings from people who clearly have no clue but still post their opinons (based on their experience in gold league, low diamond, 2v2 or whatever) as if they were a fact. To find actual good advice you have to wade through post after post after post of pure garbage. It took close to 24 hours and up until page 3 before anyone actually posted that you can in fact scout a 6-pool before deciding on going hatch first. That's just ridiculous.
I very much agree with you. But i think this is a general problem with the internet, 99% of the stuff you find online is pure shit, but sometimes you do find a gem. Unfortunately i cannot remember the last time i found one in SC2 Strategy :\
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Wow... so much arrogance, hate, and bashing in the Forums lately. Does not even make fun to search for stuff anymore here, if the only thing you see is arrogant people bashing each other... srsly.
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On November 17 2010 03:40 nodq wrote:
Wow... so much arrogance, hate, and bashing in the Forums lately. Does not even make fun to search for stuff anymore here, if the only thing you see is arrogant people bashing each other... srsly.
Yes, I'm in the same boat as you nodq.
Seriously, I don't care if you're a 2500 diamond player or some shit, how about coming back with 3k points, a GSL trophy, and a more humble attitude. Waay too much arrogance here, even if everything you said is sound and correct, there are different ways of expressing them.
But yeah you quite literally have to wade through all the posts to be able to find the right ones that give reasonable advice. The 12 pool suggestions just seemed a bit skewed and unnecessary. Although I don't like the elitist 2300 - 2500 players posting in their condescending manner, their advice is quite good, so thank you.
I've been playing purely with 15 hatch or 14 hatch first BOs in ZvZ (and yeah it took forever for you people to point out that you can scout a 6pool before making the decision to drop pool or hatch first). It works fantastically against players who are bad at aggression, but players who are more experienced will constantly poke at you for any holes in order to reduce your drone count while they expand get their own expo. Unless you're a tip top player in terms of mechanics, it's extremely difficult to keep yourself up against a player who's hungry for your drones, and in the worst case scenario they'll destroy your FE. I'm beginning to believe that the effort just isn't worth it for the small advantage... unless of course they go all-in and you defend it properly in a completely one-sided fashion.
Definitely going to try out some of these pool first builds with the +1 timing attack against other FEs
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On November 17 2010 03:04 DarKFoRcE wrote:
why in gods name do you need a 12 pool to be "safe" on XNC?. Sometimes its better to say nothing. Especially when you are on rank #65435 in the ladder and in your own opinion suck at the matchup you want to talk about.
XNC might have been a bad example, but a 12 pool defends a 6 pool alot better than a 14 pool or Hatch first build, especially on short rush distance maps.
Edit: It's cool with me if you disagree, but if you're going to bother posting, give reasons why my ideas are shit. If you want to diss my ranking, that's fine too. Do it in a PM so it doesn't fuck up these strat threads.
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I just seen a couple games of Dimaga vs Sen, and they hatched first on Steppes of War... I mean, you have to have BALLS! to hatch first on such a small map.. They didnt even sent a scout drone and the overlords were far away from the nat... So, or they take it for granted that the other will hatch aswell or they are pretty confident that you can hold hatch first in any ocasion..
After reading this thread I watched countless replays and even thou most of the games ppl go 14 pool, some games where they hatch first it seems completely viable, they have delayed lings/blings but they usually can buy some time by microing things.
Now, one thing that Ive seen on most of this games is that the expo just serves as a larva booster, I mean, they never droned past pool, just keeped pumping units. So how about lay a hatch in your main? its safer... I know that in your natural if the game extends you already have it there for droning but still, most games finishes before that.
On the latest IdrA ZvZ games hes doing every game the same thing.. 14 gas 14 pool, speed, 20-21 baneling nest... go to opponents base, scout, if theres roach warren been made, cancel baneling and starts a roach warren himself... otherwise he keeps banelings, if opponent goes bling nest, he goes roaches
I've seen a lot of games where people keep fighting the ling/bling war. Imo its pointless and just tires the player because no one is able to overcome the other, until someone give up and throw a roach warren and try to econ, its always the same thing. The replay I posted earlier of Madfrod is a freaking 30 minutes game where no one gives up on ling/bling and no one can overcome the other, why be so stubborn? is it worth to just keep trying it for so long? So, taking this fact ZvZ is usually about going roaches since a ling/bling cannot beat it, even more if you add a couple blings to the roachs if he has lings.
I totally understand the value of going lings first cause of mobility and drone harass, and its a total game winner if the other player just mass lings and never go banes and you go, so there is the only way I can see ling/bling is really worth, otherwise I would just say wall in yourself with some roaches and drone up, mass roach and go for a timed attack, if not gg, expand and go for a mid game with infestors and upgrades
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On November 17 2010 05:13 gdTyrael wrote:
I just seen a couple games of Dimaga vs Sen, and they hatched first on Steppes of War... I mean, you have to have BALLS! to hatch first on such a small map.. They didnt even sent a scout drone and the overlords were far away from the nat... So, or they take it for granted that the other will hatch aswell or they are pretty confident that you can hold hatch first in any ocasion..
After reading this thread I watched countless replays and even thou most of the games ppl go 14 pool, some games where they hatch first it seems completely viable, they have delayed lings/blings but they usually can buy some time by microing things.
Now, one thing that Ive seen on most of this games is that the expo just serves as a larva booster, I mean, they never droned past pool, just keeped pumping units. So how about lay a hatch in your main? its safer... I know that in your natural if the game extends you already have it there for droning but still, most games finishes before that.
On the latest IdrA ZvZ games hes doing every game the same thing.. 14 gas 14 pool, speed, 20-21 baneling nest... go to opponents base, scout, if theres roach warren been made, cancel baneling and starts a roach warren himself... otherwise he keeps banelings, if opponent goes bling nest, he goes roaches
I've seen a lot of games where people keep fighting the ling/bling war. Imo its pointless and just tires the player because no one is able to overcome the other, until someone give up and throw a roach warren and try to econ, its always the same thing
I have never watched Sen's ZvZ but Dimaga hatches first in every ZvZ game I have seen him play. Sen was most likely responding knowing how Dimaga plays.
The reason why you put your hatch outside your base is because if you switch into defensive mode and start macroing you have an expansion to exploit which can lead to major economic advantage. Your not very much safer hatching in your main (Unless your going roaches, which why would you even need a 2nd hatch off one base).
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I have never watched Sen's ZvZ but Dimaga hatches first in every ZvZ game I have seen him play. Sen was most likely responding knowing how Dimaga plays.
Yeah, I thought about it, so I guess he didnt 6-9 pool cause its too risky? otherwise its a hardcounter to dimaga's play style in this map =)
theres the replay if you want to see Sen: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2358
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Hatch First does have a good counter
+1 Roach Rush.
It allows for around 16-17 (leave 3 roaches at ramp, in case of back stab) roaches + 3 more roaches every larva cycle, all with 18dmg, (2 shot lings)
It comes early enough (at around 8min) , and any type of droning at that time gets severely punishes, also very hard to scout as well, as you simply need to block off your ramp with 3 roaches or so, and rally the other roaches out of sight in case he tries to poke in with a ling. You time it so the roaches get +1 as they are just entering the natural, and its very effective.
It works for me at 1600 d.
and im sure, the expo (350mins) will allow his roach count (even if he went roach) to be way less than yours.
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On November 17 2010 11:50 Twaxter wrote:
Hatch First does have a good counter
+1 Roach Rush.
It allows for around 16-17 (leave 3 roaches at ramp, in case of back stab) roaches + 3 more roaches every larva cycle, all with 18dmg, (2 shot lings)
It comes early enough (at around 8min) , and any type of droning at that time gets severely punishes, also very hard to scout as well, as you simply need to block off your ramp with 3 roaches or so, and rally the other roaches out of sight in case he tries to poke in with a ling. You time it so the roaches get +1 as they are just entering the natural, and its very effective.
It works for me at 1600 d.
and im sure, the expo (350mins) will allow his roach count (even if he went roach) to be way less than yours.
was just about to post essentially the same thing. if i scout a normal pool/gas opening (not 6pool or hatch first) i mass roaches on one base. i leave a few on hold position on my ramp and wait til he plops his expo down. then i attack with all my units. i have very good success with this.
i havent tried the +1 (just want to have as many roaches as possible), but that sounds good too.
this is safe against any early game aggression which is why i eventually settled on it. he can run lings/blings into your roach wall forever and not come out ahead. if he goes roaches... well my whole plan was to have more then you so im covered.
i hear someone saying 1 base muta would crush u. if one base muta is beating u then i dont think i can help.
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I hatch first every game, and I feel I only lose to either someone that pressures me while expanding himself, or when I misjudge the situation. I think a lot of players around low-mid Diamond just go mass ling, or 1 base roach and hope to win. I usually have 2 spines against early pressure, but I find against a lot of these 1-base play, sometimes even 4-5 spines are worth it.
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im playing at the 1900-2k level on NA servers and until recently i was losing 9/10 ZvZs. i now do something similar to sanasante, and win about 8/10 zvzs.
speedling openers are about as safe as you can get in this matchup
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On November 17 2010 01:27 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 00:14 Sanasante wrote:On November 16 2010 23:49 DarKFoRcE wrote:There is so much non- and half-knowledge floating around in this thread, its horrible. you can scout a little after 9 on LT and meta and still see whether the opponent 6 pools before you place down the hatch first. To me it is very unclear whether roach or a ling baneling opening is favorable. I think that if the one getting the lings actually builds a few banelings, he is behind because they are pretty useless against the roaches. In ZvZ you often lose because of "small" mistakes or a hard to scout timingpush, which is why you need alot of games to actually find out what builds are truely superior. What BO is good is also extremely map dependant. On November 16 2010 14:04 Sanasante wrote:
This match up is not luck based what so ever. Many players at the upper tier are still not that good at ZvZ plain and simple. I'll go ahead and toss my build but will not go into explaining the details of the build or how to deal with the various strategies as this build is 100% my own. I will say however that I have the ability to deal with any possible opening Z does. Some are more difficult to deal with while others are easier.
9 ovy
14 gas
14 pool
15 ovy (stop drones)
100 gas for speed then move back to minerals
queen
ling until 21/22
hatch at expo
22ish ovy
continue zlings
Everything after this is based upon your opponents reaction. You make the adjustments for what your vsing after the base build however this build guarantee's 100% safe fast expand. My win ratio in ZvZ is around 85%+ so if you still want to call it luck then I must be just really lucky.
I have stopped the following builds against 2300+ Z players with this build.
6 pool
6 pool (+ Drones + Spine)
7 pool
9 pool
9 pool into banes
14 gas 14 pool (Banes)
14 pool 14 gas (Roaches)
14 hatch 14 pool
Fast Muta Tech
Roaches with +1 / speed
Roaches + Bane good luck defending against a well executed ling baneling with that. 2300+ means nothing. I've had a 2350 Z go for iInbase Hatch first on Scrap Station against me. I have faced well executed ling/bane and I can say that it is the most difficult to deal with. However once your 2nd hatchery pops you have a significant larva advantage at your disposal. Their is also something else to note. Banelings attack speed is around .5 of a second. You can actually cause them to detonate when moving your lings in and then out (Without losing 1 zergling). This becomes significantly harder when you are dealing with large numbers which is why I like to push little battles. The trick when going mass ling vs banelings is to keep your opponent defensive long enough to get a couple spine crawlers at your expansion then do a fast switch to roaches. If he still has not expanded then he will likely be going all in and you throw down a few more spines. 2300 May mean nothing but I was giving a general outline, I have beaten 2500 Zergs as well. As I stated earlier. This is my own build. I took the original idea and made it into my own build that I have learned to evolve vs anything a zerg throws at me. This happens when you play 300+ games with a single build order and somehow... still manage to keep a 85% win ratio in a matchup that so many consider luck based. I 100% agree with your first statement however with losing because of the small mistakes. I will not tell you the number of times I have attack moved my zerglings into the fog and ran straight into a baneling. Things happen and this matchup is extremely unforgiving. If you would like we can ZvZ later to prove my point. Of course, as soon as you are able to get 1 or 2 spine crawlers at the expansion, you should be favorable. The thing is, there is a small timing window when your opponent has a good bunch more units than you (right after the inject pops) during which it is very difficult to defend against the banelings. Alot might come down to micro, and if you micro better than your opponent or if he does not react to your hatchery perfectly you can survive against it, but i personally have never lost in this spot from the perspective of the baneling player for quite a while, even though i think my ZvZ is actually fairly weak. Just message me on bnet if you wanna try it out, im curious about it.
If u guys are going to test it out, i would very much like to see that.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
I like idra's ZvZ opening, thats 13/14 pool -> get 4 lings to scout(sack them to kill 2+ drones if you can) and a spine for defence. Seems super safe for me.
Can go roach or bling depending on what you scout.
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Hatch First > Late Pool > Early Pool > Hatch First etc...
Roach > Baneling > Speedling > Roach etc...
I find speedlings counter roaches until the roaches reach that "critical mass" where you suffer more even with a good surround.
Only hatch first if you scouted your opponent with your first overlord (such as LT and Metal), otherwise it is very risky. You will need spine crawlers at expansion vs baneling and roaches at ramp to prevent run-bys.
Baneling is kinda all-in; if you don't deal damage then you're automatically behind.
I've also seen builds where you hatch in-base and go double queen. This can be pretty deadly.
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I've been watching MrBitter's stream where he has EG.Machine coaching him about ZvZ and i recommend everyone who struggles with ZvZ to watch it.
They go over Ling / Baneling, FE and a 1 base Roach timing push and their different counters.
Especially the Roach push was very interesting to me and I've been using it with great success at my level on the smaller maps.
It's basically a +1 Speed Burrow Roach push where you go for a quick 6 lings and 6 Roaches for defense first:
9 Ovie
14 Pool
14 Gas
15 Overlord
15 Queen
17 Roach Warren
3x Lings
20 Overlord (so 1 more drone after lings)
Use the first two lings to scout and the other 4 on your ramp. As soon as the Roach Warren pops you make 6 Roaches to block your ramp (2 rows of 3 to help with baneling splash). Start Ovie @32.
As soon as this is done you start Lair, take your second gas, plant an Evo chamber and start droning while the Lair hatches (this should bring you to around 42-44 supply). As soon as the Lair finishes you start +1 attack, Roach speed and finally Burrow. Make an Overseer and start pumping Roaches till the upgrades finish.
Use the Overseer to contaminate your opponents Hatch(es) (do this every time you have enough energy) and get some scouting info. As soon as +1 finishes push out with your Roaches and expand. Transition into Roach / Infestor and take your third after you get the first Infestors out.
Be wary for tech switches (you should scout this with your Overseer) and use spore crawlers / Queens or throw down a Hydra den if he goes mutas.
I'm only Gold level but at my level it's very viable and i feel very safe against any one base Zerg opening. Even if they go mutas and i haven't scouted it in time i either win the base trade that follows or i can do so much damage with the roaches while getting my air defenses up at home while the mutas attack my roaches (even if i lose them all i did more than enough damage, including killing of the spire).
I guess it's also viable at higher levels since it's coming from Machine  .
http://www.livestream.com/mrbitter (The coaching session is in the recorded video section. There's also a nice coaching session with iNControL about ZvP).
And of course a big shootout to MrBitter for his great stream and for sharing his coaching sessions.
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In the last MLG tournament (Dallas), Idra always went 14 pool baneling against his opponents who went hatch first and I can recall that he never lost a game.
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Hmm what I do is if we both Hatch first and I can scout his base and see no roach warren get up I make a baneling nest with my roaches. I always go roaches always I feel its alot better then speedling baneling and if you get some banes with those your pretty much safe if he tries a pure speedling off of 2 base attack.
Now if you both pool first I go roaches but will go roach/baneling if I see pure speedling coming out. Its about the safest builds you can do honestly in both scenarios but thats just me my zvz is doing amazing right now when i started doing these ^^
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On November 17 2010 11:50 Twaxter wrote:
Hatch First does have a good counter
+1 Roach Rush.
It allows for around 16-17 (leave 3 roaches at ramp, in case of back stab) roaches + 3 more roaches every larva cycle, all with 18dmg, (2 shot lings)
It comes early enough (at around 8min) , and any type of droning at that time gets severely punishes, also very hard to scout as well, as you simply need to block off your ramp with 3 roaches or so, and rally the other roaches out of sight in case he tries to poke in with a ling. You time it so the roaches get +1 as they are just entering the natural, and its very effective.
It works for me at 1600 d.
and im sure, the expo (350mins) will allow his roach count (even if he went roach) to be way less than yours.
If you leave 3 roaches at ramp without expanding, then I would immediately suspect some kind of all-in. I would NOT mass speedlings because these are larva-inefficient and are ineffective against 1-base roach, muta or baneling all-ins. Instead, I would make an extra queen, and more spine crawlers, and probably roaches of my own. If I was really paranoid, I would send in an ovie to check for lair tech or any tech buildings. By the time 17 roaches come in, the expo would have paid off for itself already. 17 +1 roaches are powerful, but the expo comes so late that if your opponent makes a ton of defense and holds the push, you would be significantly behind.
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Is that san vs darkforce game going to happen? I want to know if that build works.
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On November 17 2010 11:50 Twaxter wrote:
Hatch First does have a good counter
+1 Roach Rush.
It allows for around 16-17 (leave 3 roaches at ramp, in case of back stab) roaches + 3 more roaches every larva cycle, all with 18dmg, (2 shot lings)
It comes early enough (at around 8min) , and any type of droning at that time gets severely punishes, also very hard to scout as well, as you simply need to block off your ramp with 3 roaches or so, and rally the other roaches out of sight in case he tries to poke in with a ling. You time it so the roaches get +1 as they are just entering the natural, and its very effective.
It works for me at 1600 d.
and im sure, the expo (350mins) will allow his roach count (even if he went roach) to be way less than yours.
Im not sure if i have played against this exact variation after going hatch first myself, but so far i found every 1 base roach push extremly easy to hold with 2-3 spine crawlers + roaches. The only time i die to some kind of 1 base push after going hatch first is if i make some kind of blunder early on or if im too greedy with drones.
i think your best bet is to expand yourself while making your opponent think you might go for some kind of mass ling allin and hope he overinvests in defense early on.
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On November 17 2010 18:57 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 11:50 Twaxter wrote:
Hatch First does have a good counter
+1 Roach Rush.
It allows for around 16-17 (leave 3 roaches at ramp, in case of back stab) roaches + 3 more roaches every larva cycle, all with 18dmg, (2 shot lings)
It comes early enough (at around 8min) , and any type of droning at that time gets severely punishes, also very hard to scout as well, as you simply need to block off your ramp with 3 roaches or so, and rally the other roaches out of sight in case he tries to poke in with a ling. You time it so the roaches get +1 as they are just entering the natural, and its very effective.
It works for me at 1600 d.
and im sure, the expo (350mins) will allow his roach count (even if he went roach) to be way less than yours. Im not sure if i have played against this exact variation after going hatch first myself, but so far i found every 1 base roach push extremly easy to hold with 2-3 spine crawlers + roaches. The only time i die to some kind of 1 base push after going hatch first is if i make some kind of blunder early on or if im too greedy with drones. i think your best bet is to expand yourself while making your opponent think you might go for some kind of mass ling allin and hope he overinvests in defense early on.
Agreed ^
I think +1 mass roaches would allow my economy to get significantly behind, and its better to just mirror. It mite be effective against those players who went speedling, or didn't scout. But as you climb ladder, it can be very easy to hold off, and the expo saturation kicks in.
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In my experience hatch first is safe against any 13 pool or later, I send a drone scout out on 9 to check and if its 13 or later I hatch first which is always very safe. Also I find lings to be the most powerful unit you have in the early game, however properly micro'd banelings will crush them anything else and its GG once my hatch finishes. When my hatch finishes I always have 16 or 17 drones depending on how safe I feel, I immediately make 2 queens and pump nothing but speedlings while taking all 3 workers out of gas. From here more than half the time I just wait for speed to finish, and I usually have about 25-30 lings at this point and I just attack. Literally anything but 6 banelings cannot stop this, if they do have banelings as long as your on their side of the map, your fine .. just pull back drop 2 or 3 spines at each base and pump drones and lings( this scenario usually leads to an interesting macro game). However if the other player has 6 banes or more and manages to engage on my side of the map things go south for me, this is the only time I lose zvz right now .. trying to find a way to smooth out this one scenario atm.
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I usually go 16 hatch and i'm doing quite well...
you guys seem to forget that if you build your hatch at 14 or later...
your opponent won't know that you are going hatch first till you hit atleast 14 supply
i mean the fact that you guys are saying 12 pool kills 14 hatch...
well i see if he pools at 12 so i go for a 14 pool case closed
he pools at 14 i hatch at 15 pool 14... he couldn't 12 pool because i hatched after his pool.
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EPT
