EPTZvZ "safe" openings without 100% counter openings. - Page 3
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Enervate
United States1769 Posts
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SovSov
United States755 Posts
I usually go for roaches, but get a few lings at first to scout. If the other players are going lings, I will match them with lings until I feel I can pop out enough to roaches to completely counter. Then I upgrade quick and transition into Hydra/roach. Blings are hardly used on my part unless to counter enemy lings in mid-late game which they make to counter hydras. But ultimately, I feel roaches is always the safest bet, but try to RUSH roaches, react to your opponent accordingly. | ||
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
On November 16 2010 13:35 Enervate wrote: 13/14 pool is the completely safe build. You will not outright die to any other build assuming you have decent decision-making and micro. 14/15 hatch is greedy. 6-10 pool is aggressive. This is the exact same situation as BW, where 12 pool was safe, 12 hatch greedy, and 9 pool aggressive. Dying outright is not the issue. In BW, Hatchery first means more money and more larvae, which means more drones, more Zerglings, and more Mutalisks. Unless you can kill your opponent dead before those materialize, opening pool first puts you at a significant disadvantage at the one minute mark; you just don't actually get the "game over" pop-up until many minutes later. (assuming you don't really outplay your opponent to make up for the disadvantage) The Queen mechanic adds a significant wrinkle that wasn't present in Brood War, that I think has the potential to change the equation. The advantage to Hatchery first advantage is no longer "more money and more larvae", it is just "more money". It may be possible that a Pool first build can race against the clock, and punish Hatchery first before it can manage to turn "more money" into "more larvae" or some other significant advantage. | ||
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Sanasante
United States321 Posts
9 ovy 14 gas 14 pool 15 ovy (stop drones) 100 gas for speed then move back to minerals queen ling until 21/22 hatch at expo 22ish ovy continue zlings Everything after this is based upon your opponents reaction. You make the adjustments for what your vsing after the base build however this build guarantee's 100% safe fast expand. My win ratio in ZvZ is around 85%+ so if you still want to call it luck then I must be just really lucky. I have stopped the following builds against 2300+ Z players with this build. 6 pool 6 pool (+ Drones + Spine) 7 pool 9 pool 9 pool into banes 14 gas 14 pool (Banes) 14 pool 14 gas (Roaches) 14 hatch 14 pool Fast Muta Tech Roaches with +1 / speed Roaches + Bane | ||
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MementoMori
Canada419 Posts
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gdTyrael
49 Posts
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2765 imo, one of them should have gone roach a LOT earlier, when the game falls into ling/bling battles, its just pointless imo be stubborn and insist on whos gonna get luckier with busts | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On November 16 2010 14:04 Sanasante wrote: This match up is not luck based what so ever. Many players at the upper tier are still not that good at ZvZ plain and simple. I'll go ahead and toss my build but will not go into explaining the details of the build or how to deal with the various strategies as this build is 100% my own. I will say however that I have the ability to deal with any possible opening Z does. Some are more difficult to deal with while others are easier. 9 ovy 14 gas 14 pool 15 ovy (stop drones) 100 gas for speed then move back to minerals queen ling until 21/22 hatch at expo 22ish ovy continue zlings Everything after this is based upon your opponents reaction. You make the adjustments for what your vsing after the base build however this build guarantee's 100% safe fast expand. My win ratio in ZvZ is around 85%+ so if you still want to call it luck then I must be just really lucky. I have stopped the following builds against 2300+ Z players with this build. 6 pool 6 pool (+ Drones + Spine) 7 pool 9 pool 9 pool into banes 14 gas 14 pool (Banes) 14 pool 14 gas (Roaches) 14 hatch 14 pool Fast Muta Tech Roaches with +1 / speed Roaches + Bane what you're doing is the standard speedling expand, and the fact that you beat baneling or roach +1 builds with it does not mean much. Roaches, without speed, with +1 attack totally rape any kind of zergling opener, your best chance is some base trade with spines and sneaking a +1 carapace in the meantime or something like that. Also the standrad baneling is good vs this build, not auto win, but very good. Roach & Bane can totally beat it too. I beat abnelings with mass lings and 8pool-crawlers with hatch first, sometimes it just happens, it doesnt mean my build was good against those. If you could know for sure which one of the above 3 builds are coming from a 1 base zerg, you can stop it, but there's hardly any way to spot it on most maps. Also Hatch first it's absolutely better then this, once the "hatch-firsting" player knows how to react. It's an ok build, nowhere near safe, nowhere near as eco heavy as hatch first. | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
On November 16 2010 07:25 ChickenLips wrote: I think a lot of players are ignoring the fact that a hatch first build order is only SLIGHTLY economically ahead of for example a 13 pool 16 hatch build order. So since the only problem for hatch first seems to be a 6 pool you can just 13 pool and then time your scout in a way that you can decide on what to do (14-15 gas for roaches or 16 hatch. In the absolute worst case scenario you have to cancel your hatch and try to micro your way out of the cheese all in, however as we've seen in Korea, quite a few top players go for Speedling/Baneling with a quick hatch before the actual micro wars commence. Here's the thread. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167577 if you go for 13 pool and 14-15 gas you're going to have a HUGE, HUGE disadvantage to ling/bling builds. against a good, well microing player, you're going to lose almost instantly with that kind of a delayed gas, because you'll have super late speed and very few banelings. there's a reason the standard BO for ling/bling includes gas-before-pool. | ||
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Sanasante
United States321 Posts
On November 16 2010 16:27 Geo.Rion wrote: what you're doing is the standard speedling expand, and the fact that you beat baneling or roach +1 builds with it does not mean much. Roaches, without speed, with +1 attack totally rape any kind of zergling opener, your best chance is some base trade with spines and sneaking a +1 carapace in the meantime or something like that. Also the standrad baneling is good vs this build, not auto win, but very good. Roach & Bane can totally beat it too. I beat abnelings with mass lings and 8pool-crawlers with hatch first, sometimes it just happens, it doesnt mean my build was good against those. If you could know for sure which one of the above 3 builds are coming from a 1 base zerg, you can stop it, but there's hardly any way to spot it on most maps. Also Hatch first it's absolutely better then this, once the "hatch-firsting" player knows how to react. It's an ok build, nowhere near safe, nowhere near as eco heavy as hatch first. The point of the build is the hatch. If your opponent goes Roach + Bane which a smart player will do it is actually an auto loss for them vs me every single time. The main reason why being that their army is slow and unenforceable. Minimize losses vs Banes and its easy win. This is not hard vs roaches with or without speed and or +1 as you actually do not have to continue massing lings the entire game. There is no timing attack that should catch you off guard when they go roaches. Just because a build sounds good on paper does not mean its good in application. The point of speedlings is in fact their speed. Look how Foxer/MvP revolutionized the Marine. Don't be blind by saying this vs that is win. | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
To me it is very unclear whether roach or a ling baneling opening is favorable. I think that if the one getting the lings actually builds a few banelings, he is behind because they are pretty useless against the roaches. In ZvZ you often lose because of "small" mistakes or a hard to scout timingpush, which is why you need alot of games to actually find out what builds are truely superior. What BO is good is also extremely map dependant. On November 16 2010 14:04 Sanasante wrote: This match up is not luck based what so ever. Many players at the upper tier are still not that good at ZvZ plain and simple. I'll go ahead and toss my build but will not go into explaining the details of the build or how to deal with the various strategies as this build is 100% my own. I will say however that I have the ability to deal with any possible opening Z does. Some are more difficult to deal with while others are easier. 9 ovy 14 gas 14 pool 15 ovy (stop drones) 100 gas for speed then move back to minerals queen ling until 21/22 hatch at expo 22ish ovy continue zlings Everything after this is based upon your opponents reaction. You make the adjustments for what your vsing after the base build however this build guarantee's 100% safe fast expand. My win ratio in ZvZ is around 85%+ so if you still want to call it luck then I must be just really lucky. I have stopped the following builds against 2300+ Z players with this build. 6 pool 6 pool (+ Drones + Spine) 7 pool 9 pool 9 pool into banes 14 gas 14 pool (Banes) 14 pool 14 gas (Roaches) 14 hatch 14 pool Fast Muta Tech Roaches with +1 / speed Roaches + Bane good luck defending against a well executed ling baneling with that. 2300+ means nothing. I've had a 2350 Z go for iInbase Hatch first on Scrap Station against me. | ||
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Sanasante
United States321 Posts
On November 16 2010 23:49 DarKFoRcE wrote: There is so much non- and half-knowledge floating around in this thread, its horrible. you can scout a little after 9 on LT and meta and still see whether the opponent 6 pools before you place down the hatch first. To me it is very unclear whether roach or a ling baneling opening is favorable. I think that if the one getting the lings actually builds a few banelings, he is behind because they are pretty useless against the roaches. In ZvZ you often lose because of "small" mistakes or a hard to scout timingpush, which is why you need alot of games to actually find out what builds are truely superior. What BO is good is also extremely map dependant. good luck defending against a well executed ling baneling with that. 2300+ means nothing. I've had a 2350 Z go for iInbase Hatch first on Scrap Station against me. I have faced well executed ling/bane and I can say that it is the most difficult to deal with. However once your 2nd hatchery pops you have a significant larva advantage at your disposal. Their is also something else to note. Banelings attack speed is around .5 of a second. You can actually cause them to detonate when moving your lings in and then out (Without losing 1 zergling). This becomes significantly harder when you are dealing with large numbers which is why I like to push little battles. The trick when going mass ling vs banelings is to keep your opponent defensive long enough to get a couple spine crawlers at your expansion then do a fast switch to roaches. If he still has not expanded then he will likely be going all in and you throw down a few more spines. 2300 May mean nothing but I was giving a general outline, I have beaten 2500 Zergs as well. As I stated earlier. This is my own build. I took the original idea and made it into my own build that I have learned to evolve vs anything a zerg throws at me. This happens when you play 300+ games with a single build order and somehow... still manage to keep a 85% win ratio in a matchup that so many consider luck based. I 100% agree with your first statement however with losing because of the small mistakes. I will not tell you the number of times I have attack moved my zerglings into the fog and ran straight into a baneling. Things happen and this matchup is extremely unforgiving. If you would like we can ZvZ later to prove my point. | ||
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Ejden
Sweden52 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:14 Sanasante wrote: I have faced well executed ling/bane and I can say that it is the most difficult to deal with. However once your 2nd hatchery pops you have a significant larva advantage at your disposal. Their is also something else to note. Banelings attack speed is around .5 of a second. You can actually cause them to detonate when moving your lings in and then out (Without losing 1 zergling). This becomes significantly harder when you are dealing with large numbers which is why I like to push little battles. The trick when going mass ling vs banelings is to keep your opponent defensive long enough to get a couple spine crawlers at your expansion then do a fast switch to roaches. If he still has not expanded then he will likely be going all in and you throw down a few more spines. 2300 May mean nothing but I was giving a general outline, I have beaten 2500 Zergs as well. As I stated earlier. This is my own build. I took the original idea and made it into my own build that I have learned to evolve vs anything a zerg throws at me. This happens when you play 300+ games with a single build order and somehow... still manage to keep a 85% win ratio in a matchup that so many consider luck based. I 100% agree with your first statement however with losing because of the small mistakes. I will not tell you the number of times I have attack moved my zerglings into the fog and ran straight into a baneling. Things happen and this matchup is extremely unforgiving. If you would like we can ZvZ later to prove my point. You own build? That build is as standard as it gets. "I have not seen this piece of land before, therefore i discoverd it", Might be smurf but ure going to argue with potentially aTnDarKFoRcE ? | ||
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Sanasante
United States321 Posts
If I had not been playing on a 2000 level for over a month vs some of the best zergs on my particular ladder I would have already conceded my point purely based on who he is and his superior status alone. However the majority of my games I have vsed against in ZvZ are vs Banelings. I may not have played many players at Darkforces particular level but I have played vs some that are close. I am not saying my build is perfect or that I never lose to banelings, however I can stop them dead cold if I do not make any small micro mistakes. The more and more I have used this build the more and more times I have been in scary situations vs banelings, the better my micro has gotten because of it. The standard build order is not my own. How I play after the 4 minute mark is however my own style and I have yet to see a single zerg player do it. | ||
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
On November 16 2010 14:04 Sanasante wrote: This match up is not luck based what so ever. Many players at the upper tier are still not that good at ZvZ plain and simple. I'll go ahead and toss my build but will not go into explaining the details of the build or how to deal with the various strategies as this build is 100% my own. I will say however that I have the ability to deal with any possible opening Z does. Some are more difficult to deal with while others are easier. The part you are not explaining is precisely the part that is of interest. On the surface, your build appears significantly disadvantaged against a Hatchery first build. (And according to the previous poster, also disadvantaged against Banelings, but that's not an issue I have the knowledge to discuss) Let's say he goes Hatchery first but otherwise plays similarly to your strategy. The main question of interest is whether your opening book includes something like a timing attack that allows you to achieve parity or even an advantage, or if your 85% win rate is due to some you outplaying your opponent. | ||
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Sajiki
Germany522 Posts
it is very hard to distinguish between good and bad advice and i would recommend that perhaps noone below at least the level of the thread-starter would post his BO in here. Im very interested in this subject but statements like "you can NEVERRRRRR hatch first; you will lose EVERYTIME with this build vs this build" just makes me mad :s | ||
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Harbinger13
United States9 Posts
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LeCastor
France234 Posts
They already have a better eco and are getting roach to close the ramp. So they redrone and tech safely with no pb. I win sometimes because, a lot of player resigns if you kill half of their drones. | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:14 Sanasante wrote: I have faced well executed ling/bane and I can say that it is the most difficult to deal with. However once your 2nd hatchery pops you have a significant larva advantage at your disposal. Their is also something else to note. Banelings attack speed is around .5 of a second. You can actually cause them to detonate when moving your lings in and then out (Without losing 1 zergling). This becomes significantly harder when you are dealing with large numbers which is why I like to push little battles. The trick when going mass ling vs banelings is to keep your opponent defensive long enough to get a couple spine crawlers at your expansion then do a fast switch to roaches. If he still has not expanded then he will likely be going all in and you throw down a few more spines. 2300 May mean nothing but I was giving a general outline, I have beaten 2500 Zergs as well. As I stated earlier. This is my own build. I took the original idea and made it into my own build that I have learned to evolve vs anything a zerg throws at me. This happens when you play 300+ games with a single build order and somehow... still manage to keep a 85% win ratio in a matchup that so many consider luck based. I 100% agree with your first statement however with losing because of the small mistakes. I will not tell you the number of times I have attack moved my zerglings into the fog and ran straight into a baneling. Things happen and this matchup is extremely unforgiving. If you would like we can ZvZ later to prove my point. Of course, as soon as you are able to get 1 or 2 spine crawlers at the expansion, you should be favorable. The thing is, there is a small timing window when your opponent has a good bunch more units than you (right after the inject pops) during which it is very difficult to defend against the banelings. Alot might come down to micro, and if you micro better than your opponent or if he does not react to your hatchery perfectly you can survive against it, but i personally have never lost in this spot from the perspective of the baneling player for quite a while, even though i think my ZvZ is actually fairly weak. Just message me on bnet if you wanna try it out, im curious about it. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On November 17 2010 01:27 DarKFoRcE wrote: Of course, as soon as you are able to get 1 or 2 spine crawlers at the expansion, you should be favorable. The thing is, there is a small timing window when your opponent has a good bunch more units than you (right after the inject pops) during which it is very difficult to defend against the banelings. Alot might come down to micro, and if you micro better than your opponent or if he does not react to your hatchery perfectly you can survive against it, but i personally have never lost in this spot from the perspective of the baneling player for quite a while, even though i think my ZvZ is actually fairly weak. Just message me on bnet if you wanna try it out, im curious about it. I'm obviously not as highly rated as you, but your experiences echo my own. There's a window with the expansion where you can cause enough damage to even everything out if you control it well. I don't really know of any way the expanding player can stop this other than favorable positions on big maps or by having better micro. Personally vs spine crawlers I've also had luck by delaying my aggression until I have a larger force. Even if he has more larva than you he's not going to have more gas. A larger # of banelings means you're still likely to win a confrontation over him, especially if he's pinned back to his natural. | ||
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Shika
Sweden1711 Posts
On November 17 2010 01:03 Sajiki wrote: i feel like there are a lot of platinum/lower levels stating "opinions" in here. I think a lot of things written in this thread are proven by nothing but personal preference and practice against AI :S it is very hard to distinguish between good and bad advice and i would recommend that perhaps noone below at least the level of the thread-starter would post his BO in here. Im very interested in this subject but statements like "you can NEVERRRRRR hatch first; you will lose EVERYTIME with this build vs this build" just makes me mad :s This, so much this. This is a problem with the strategy forum that have become worse and worse after release to the point where I don't bother reading them anymore, this topic just caught my eye on the left menu at random and I thought that maybe it could be interesting. Good players don't want to post on these forums anymore because their posts gets drowned by ramblings from people who clearly have no clue but still post their opinons (based on their experience in gold league, low diamond, 2v2 or whatever) as if they were a fact. To find actual good advice you have to wade through post after post after post of pure garbage. It took close to 24 hours and up until page 3 before anyone actually posted that you can in fact scout a 6-pool before deciding on going hatch first. That's just ridiculous. | ||
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