I been toying with the idea of a super early push with one void ray and 2 gate produced units. I don't have any replays right now because this still needs a lot of refinement, but could this be an effective harassment timing wise? Anyone else tried this?

theriv

United States149 Posts

November 04 2010 20:09 GMT

this is happened to me as zerg.

if i didn't noob it up and scouted like i should it would of been way easier.

if they scout actively at all it wont be good.

although a 2 prong attack would be annoying if you could get an exp off.

Kurt_Russell

Canada147 Posts

November 04 2010 20:15 GMT

Won't ever work against a semi-competent Z. Maybe if you attack with other units at the same time, but that would slow down your void ray timing and the little ground troops you'd have

You'd mind as well continue trying it out and show us some preliminary results that we could build upon.

Enervate

United States1769 Posts

November 04 2010 20:20 GMT

It would be better to get 3 gates instead of two. A 3gate void push is very strong even if scouted. However, it's less of a harassment build and more of an agressive build where you have to do damage or will fall behind.

Protoss_Carrier

414 Posts

November 04 2010 20:21 GMT

Well, I don't have much preliminary result, it's one void ray and gateway unit that move out around 7 min. Usually it's 3-4 stalker, 2-3 zealot, 1 sentry and 1 void ray, block ramp and kill natural.

Only loss I have so far is when zerg built 3 queen and a spine.

The beauty is that Z can't scout this unless he sac and overlord (stargate laid down right after scouting ling is chased out).

Protoss_Carrier

414 Posts

November 04 2010 20:22 GMT

On November 05 2010 05:20 Enervate wrote:
It would be better to get 3 gates instead of two. A 3gate void push is very strong even if scouted. However, it's less of a harassment build and more of an agressive build where you have to do damage or will fall behind.

I try to expand behind the push, hence the 2 gate.

emc

United States3088 Posts

November 04 2010 20:23 GMT

competent zergs have been favoring 3 early queens as of late, they should easily handle ONE void ray. I don't think single voids are problematic anymore, it's when they are in big numbers like mutas that they are a problem (but that's a complete waste of resources, imo).

Conrose

437 Posts

November 04 2010 20:23 GMT

If you push in while the 2nd Queen is coming out on a Fast Expand zerg, you A: Lose or pull back your Void Ray and B: Invite him over to the Nexus for dinner. Watch out for scouts, the moment you see that they see your stargate, you pretty much have to assume he knows what you're up to since there really isn't much a Stargate could mean as an early play. That the Zerg have several options to responding to this makes this an even riskier play since they can mass Hydras, Mass Mutas, or Mass Queens and save gas for teching up (Or just because they aren't into lair tech yet). or they can push for your base right away and try to end it while they know you don't have much of an effective defense, and knowing that your VR won't get to charge up against a mass of Lings. Maybe get the second level attack against a mass of Roaches.

Basically going with early VR and pushing while you still have only the one opens up a huge can of worms against Zerg.

Darkstar_X

United States197 Posts

November 04 2010 20:31 GMT

2 gate + stargate production costs more than a single base can support already, so what use is the 3rd gate?

What good is the single void ray supposed to do? If you only have one, then its real cost includes the stargate (400/300). If you skip the void ray you could have 4 more units. I'm not sure what you are trying to do with that load of inefficiency.

GoldenH

1115 Posts

November 04 2010 20:35 GMT

#10

It worked before the VR nerf, but now, a counter with zergling/roaches right when the VR pops will destroy you. Even a complete walloff + sentries/stalkers doesn't work.

Right now if you don't get scouted (and I mean literally, he doesn't scout, because even the number of units at your ramp will be a giveaway) you CAN harass his expo long enough to put down yours, BUT, if he runs his drones away, and brings his queen from his main you won't be able to do any real damage... you might kill one queen, but he'll make 2 more, save the hatch, and kill any gateway units (certainly more than 150 minerals) while your VR retreats.

Making more than one VR is an automatic loss, and your phoenix won't be able to do any damage at this point : he is too close to Lair and has almost certainly started an evo chamber for upgrades.

Titilisk

96 Posts

November 04 2010 20:58 GMT

#11

It is not a bad idea. However, as a Z, I usually powerdrone and go several spines + Speedlings if I don't see a 1-base play from the P. You might surprise me (provided you were able to hide your Stargate from my scouting), and start killing my spines (I don't like the idea of killing queens, it's dicy). You might kill one, maybe two and then try to push in. You might pull it off with a nice positionning/forcefield. It's dicy but possible I believe.

My suggestion is to NOT try to push too early with voidrays. A 1 base protoss is too weak to recover from a denied push. However, I feel there might be a timing window as a transition from a FE build and trying to deny the Zerg's 3rd. It's a very crucial moment for a Z, because a denied 3rd base is very difficult to win from, as Colossi with 2base P tend to be overwhelming. A Stargate is nice I believe, if backed up with a strong eco to deny this 3rd. There are definitely some good build to do with it. Just don't do it off of 1 base.

raf3776

United States1904 Posts

November 04 2010 21:05 GMT

#12

I actually lost against this today. He did a 3gate 1 voidray push. I hade spinecrawlers but he hard a decent size army and his voidray helped the damage and distracted the queens. The only real thing it did was distract the queens as it didnt do that much damage.

KotaOnCue

United States180 Posts

November 04 2010 21:34 GMT

#13

I've toyed around with this build where I push with 2 VRs because I think 2 VRs actually do more damage with the fact one can stay while the other continues to attack. And even if it doesn't work, I usually use it as a deterrent from them expanding again and or use the VRs as ovie hunters. It transitions well into a colossi heavy army because they'll have more hydras than anything else and if they aren't prepared, a small ground army and 2 VRs can wreck their economy.

But then again, Plat player with little experience against really good zerg so who knows, I've also had similar success with blink stalkers against FE zerg so who knows what is really a factor here, the timing or the unit composition.

whoopadeedoo

United States427 Posts

November 04 2010 21:42 GMT

#14

VRs don't seem to work anymore for early harass since 1.1.2, at least not 1800+ diamond. Queens, with or without transfusion, pretty much makes VRs useless. Speedlings and roaches mop up 2 or 3 gate handily.

Oceaniax

146 Posts

November 04 2010 21:49 GMT

#15

I'm not entirely understanding this thread. How "fast" is this push (and subsequently, when are all these alternative pushes people are suggesting) coming out? By they time you have 2 gates, a stargate & a VR, zerg should have the expo up, 2 queens, quite a few drones, and the capability of producing a good defense of spinecrawlers/lings if scouting reveals a push.

GoldenH

1115 Posts

November 04 2010 21:53 GMT

#16

It should come around 5-6 minutes, depending on map positions. It's about the time you can get baneling busted or a roach push.

Here is a replay of my version:

Oceaniax

146 Posts

November 04 2010 21:58 GMT

#17

A replay would be very helpful to put it into context, because I still think, just by eyeballing it, that zerg would be able to hold that off without issue.

Edit: Damn, read my mind, yo. I'll check it out later this evening.

GoldenH

1115 Posts

November 04 2010 22:24 GMT

#18

Well in the version I posted the Zerg did hold it off without issue, so you'll be happy to see :D

Sure, with a 2 gate version, sometimes they lose EVERYTHING, but I think you can tell that it would only work against a bad zerg player who just wasn't expecting any kind of gates. You'd have like, maybe 1 more unit, +2 more if you have a proxy pylon.

Protoss_Carrier

414 Posts

November 04 2010 22:39 GMT

#19

Do note that I suggest the VR to travel with the main army, and it's really an army push with void ray support.

GoldenH

1115 Posts

November 04 2010 22:48 GMT

#20

Yes, but its pretty irrelevant to do that, its just that I didn't do that in that specific replay. Also I lost my Void Rays in this replay, because it was the first game vs Zerg since the patch and I expected them to kill the queens just a little bit faster, and thus have enough HP to retreat. I don't want to do this build on ladder again, because I know I will lose.

The timing is the same no matter if you have a 2nd gateway or not, so the rep will be just as good to Oceaniax.