EPT[D] 1 void ray push against Z: Is it viable?
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Protoss_Carrier
414 Posts
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theriv
United States149 Posts
if i didn't noob it up and scouted like i should it would of been way easier. if they scout actively at all it wont be good. although a 2 prong attack would be annoying if you could get an exp off. | ||
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Kurt_Russell
Canada147 Posts
You'd mind as well continue trying it out and show us some preliminary results that we could build upon. | ||
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Enervate
United States1769 Posts
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Protoss_Carrier
414 Posts
Only loss I have so far is when zerg built 3 queen and a spine. The beauty is that Z can't scout this unless he sac and overlord (stargate laid down right after scouting ling is chased out). | ||
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Protoss_Carrier
414 Posts
On November 05 2010 05:20 Enervate wrote: It would be better to get 3 gates instead of two. A 3gate void push is very strong even if scouted. However, it's less of a harassment build and more of an agressive build where you have to do damage or will fall behind. I try to expand behind the push, hence the 2 gate. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
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Conrose
437 Posts
Basically going with early VR and pushing while you still have only the one opens up a huge can of worms against Zerg. | ||
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Darkstar_X
United States197 Posts
On November 05 2010 05:20 Enervate wrote: It would be better to get 3 gates instead of two. A 3gate void push is very strong even if scouted. However, it's less of a harassment build and more of an agressive build where you have to do damage or will fall behind. 2 gate + stargate production costs more than a single base can support already, so what use is the 3rd gate? What good is the single void ray supposed to do? If you only have one, then its real cost includes the stargate (400/300). If you skip the void ray you could have 4 more units. I'm not sure what you are trying to do with that load of inefficiency. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
Right now if you don't get scouted (and I mean literally, he doesn't scout, because even the number of units at your ramp will be a giveaway) you CAN harass his expo long enough to put down yours, BUT, if he runs his drones away, and brings his queen from his main you won't be able to do any real damage... you might kill one queen, but he'll make 2 more, save the hatch, and kill any gateway units (certainly more than 150 minerals) while your VR retreats. Making more than one VR is an automatic loss, and your phoenix won't be able to do any damage at this point : he is too close to Lair and has almost certainly started an evo chamber for upgrades. | ||
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Titilisk
96 Posts
My suggestion is to NOT try to push too early with voidrays. A 1 base protoss is too weak to recover from a denied push. However, I feel there might be a timing window as a transition from a FE build and trying to deny the Zerg's 3rd. It's a very crucial moment for a Z, because a denied 3rd base is very difficult to win from, as Colossi with 2base P tend to be overwhelming. A Stargate is nice I believe, if backed up with a strong eco to deny this 3rd. There are definitely some good build to do with it. Just don't do it off of 1 base. | ||
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raf3776
United States1904 Posts
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KotaOnCue
United States180 Posts
But then again, Plat player with little experience against really good zerg so who knows, I've also had similar success with blink stalkers against FE zerg so who knows what is really a factor here, the timing or the unit composition. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
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Oceaniax
146 Posts
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
Here is a replay of my version: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157866.jpg) | ||
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Oceaniax
146 Posts
Edit: Damn, read my mind, yo. I'll check it out later this evening. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
Sure, with a 2 gate version, sometimes they lose EVERYTHING, but I think you can tell that it would only work against a bad zerg player who just wasn't expecting any kind of gates. You'd have like, maybe 1 more unit, +2 more if you have a proxy pylon. | ||
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Protoss_Carrier
414 Posts
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
The timing is the same no matter if you have a 2nd gateway or not, so the rep will be just as good to Oceaniax. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
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Protoss_Carrier
414 Posts
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Protoss_Carrier
414 Posts
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
A neat tip is that if you build a void ray, then chrono boost out phoenixes, your 1st void ray & phoenix will arrive at his base at the same time on most maps. This will pretty much force him into hydra play, if you keep the 1 VR alive, since the VR will beat any corrupters he builds to try and kill the phoenix. I highly reccomend delaying the Stargate slightly though, since the phoenix still will not be able to deal with a roach or zergling timing attack. (VRs are clearly better against ground, and even then, they will not be enough...) Phoenix also builds faster than VR, so you can go the 2 gate fast stalker, then build your stargate. When the first phoenix finishes, move out, and the second phoenix will join up with your army before you get to his base... you can keep building phoenixes and have them reinforce your army because they are sooo fast. It's actually hilarious having a zealot + phoenix + forge build, since you can lift up all his roaches and then the zealots charge in and kill all the hydras, your phoenix drop the roaches and the zealots surround them and kill them all while your phoenix has a field day... | ||
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orcslayermac
United States138 Posts
IMO this should not work very well vs a good Zerg player that knows what to scout for. On the other hand, if you're in gold league, go nuts. Of course, if you can get some replays and show that you can get a void ray out fast enough by all means I could be wrong. | ||
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Sigma01
Australia41 Posts
What my build consisted of was; 5 probes on gas (enough to produce only voidrays out of 1 stargate). and 2 gate's just constantly producing zealots. if they scout my build - what protoss usually do is go stalkers (and my push usually came out before stalkers had blink). Even though the stalkers own my void rays, i micro them so that the zealots go ahead and take out the stalkers. On the other hand - for zrg - they usually respond with hydras and zlots own hydras when they're not focused down.. Usually had enough voidrays as well to deal wit hthe mutas that popped as well. one problem was where they go roach hydra or mass queens. Lately - i've been thinking of integrating phoenixes into that build to lift off queens to reduce the DPS of the zerg army. Just a thought. | ||
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david0925
212 Posts
The problem with this build is the fact that 5/7 RR can hit your base much earlier than Void ray comes out, and with just Zealots you'll die horribly. Building Sentries will make this push much later since it consumes so much gas. So at least without refinement, this build isn't that viable. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
Also you don't have to get your second gas to get VRs until you throw down the Stargate. You can actually do zealot + phoenix off one gas. Since you could just as easily scout the Stargate, there is no tell on the build. | ||
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Krychek
United States172 Posts
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
With Queens the Zerg have one of the most cost efficient anti-air units in the game and they always get them, so the only way to do damage with void rays is by having more of them than the enemy has queens (so at least 2 around the 6 minute mark) and after that you have to have enough to kill the mutalisks, which have a bounce attack for extra damage, killing groups of void rays very quick (though i don't know if it's cost-effective). A Phoenix/Void Ray combo to lift queens might work, but thats almost an all-in if you want to get them before he gets hydras and if he scouts it you will have a hard time winning since he can just kill your base with ground forces. The only time it works is if the zerg overreacts, but it's always a bad idea to count on the enemy playing badly. | ||
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Aervhorn
Norway67 Posts
I wonder if IdrA would quit also if they were hallucinated. His gg-reflex here is just amazing! | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On November 05 2010 21:50 Aervhorn wrote: IdrA vs Nony (ZvP): The game involves two void rays and lasts 6 minutes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNPmgZjdOTg I wonder if IdrA would quit also if they were hallucinated. His gg-reflex here is just amazing! I was going to note this match as well here. VRs certainly aren't terrible against zerg if his tech is delayed, and especially if they are doing some very early roach rush. I'm pretty sure if they weren't damaging things that Idra would notice, though. It is worth noting here, also, that this VR tactic only worked as well as it did in this situation because: 1. In all the previous games, Nony opened with 3-4 gateways and used them to get a huge gateway army in the early game. 2. Nony allowed Idra to once again scout 3 gateways coming down early, leading him to believe another warpgate push was coming. 3. This happened to be one of the games where Idra did not drone and tech until Nony decided to apply pressure. That said, this clearly has ladder potential against a zerg who delays tech too long for the sake of early pushes or early economy advantage. | ||
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Aervhorn
Norway67 Posts
But generally zerg are in a very bad spot IF you catch them with their pants down: no hydra den and just 2 queens sitting at each base. Roaches are so popular as of v1.1.2 so VRs are more than occasionally a game-winner in my low diamond experience. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
I really want to say he GG'd because he wasted larvae on an army when he could have kept making econ. | ||
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