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On November 05 2010 02:57 Nazarid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 18:14 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
by 5 minutes theres 7+ roaches out in a roach rush, not to mention a Z could have banelings
im not sure about the other races, but 15 marines all-in at 5 minutes doesnt sound like much of a cheese
blue got savagely dominated trying that out
tried boxers 3 marine 1 scv push? banelings without speed are not an issue for marines, proof of this is from Foxers play vs zerg, and well me stealing mass marine medic strat from him and testing it vs zerg out of 12 games with zerg i have defeated 9 of them while they were making lots of lings/banes, the roaches can be an issue but nothing 1-2 marauders couldnt handle with a large marine army. i dont know why the creator of this post says which marine cheese is best... i mean you have 4 barracks no reason to think of this as cheese... on the other hand i really don't know how well this would work, i honestly don't think you could produce from all 4 rax with 12 scv's and if you could you wouldn't have any income to build more SCV's which makes this build have such a small lifespan it wouldn't be worth the econ hit, why not just get 3 rax with some ad-ons and expand while pressuring? if you want this all in to work well i think you would need to proxy atleast 1 of the barracks for quicker reinforcements. or 2 of them
thats why this is cheese and and all-in - because i cut scv's production. proxy can be scouted and requiers one worker which dons't gather for a long time. my build can't be scouted so its better.
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On November 05 2010 01:29 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 01:15 milkywaywu wrote:On November 05 2010 00:54 ltortoise wrote:On November 05 2010 00:21 milkywaywu wrote:On November 04 2010 22:44 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:37 MegaTerran wrote:On November 04 2010 22:27 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:25 MegaTerran wrote:
ltortoise, your marine attack can be stopped be forcefields or mass stalkers. but my attack, which is earlier, could do better. Stopped how? The only real goal is to prevent them from expanding while taking my own, and encouraging them to make sentries. I'm not really trying to risk my army or kill the opponent. Yes, but then toss go fast coloss or storm and its gg The only way to go mass marines i see is to go fast tech after that - viking or banshee. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother posting on TL. I try to make a contribution to your thread by giving you a general idea of a build I do ALL THE TIME against Protoss, and pretty much all you have to say is: "fast coloss/fast storm and its gg." I have NEVER lost to 1-base Colossus or 1-base storm with my build. Ever. I will have too many marauders by that point, and an additional base of income... Or the fact that every sentry they make slows their teching by 100 gas? Seriously, why did I even bother posting in your thread when you just offer mindless criticisms? Everytime I see a Terran going mass marines I just get 3 gate blink stalkers and kite. If you're trying to contain with just marines then you won't be able to survive the trip back to your base especially without stim. Blink will never come out by the time I'm at your door knocking (not even remotely close really unless you do something wacky and easily scoutable like going twilight first off 1 gateway), and I'm not going to contain you forever, just for as long as I feel comfortable doing. If I manage to safely start my expansion a good 60 seconds earlier than you (or more), that's generally good enough for me. The main focus isn't the blink itself but the fact that Stalkers just out range Marines. The blink helps alot but im quite confident I could stop any sort of early marine pressure with just stalkers one sentry and maybe probes if needed. Marines are too slow vs stalkers and without stim they just plain suck. Do you transition into tanks afterwards? I hardly ever lose to mass marines with stalkers unless they back it up with tanks/bunkers but even then theres a timing where I could attack. Why not just go the one rax fast expand instead of the early pressure? I feel it wouldn't do much at all. I transition into full MnMnM or MnM + Viking depending on the tech path of the Protoss. The goal is 4 rax with add-ons and a reactor starport off 2 base. If you go pure/mostly Stalker (which is mostly fine, you can hold but I think it's kind of hairy), I can almost guarantee you that you will have to pull probes to defend. What happens 90% of the time at this point is that due to the low sentry count, I will bust up the ramp and start a bunker at your gateway/pylons and then run after your Stalkers to push them away from the Bunker. (keep in mind meanwhile my gas is going up and my expansion is going up). Every time your Stalker stop-moves, you get farther away from that bunker. If you fall within range of the marines for just a moment, a Stalker can take terrible damage if not die pretty much immediately. If I manage to bust up the ramp and get a few probe kills as my bunker is going up, I almost always consider this a huge gain even if I lose a decent chunk of the Marines. From my own experience I consider defending with forcefields until you hit critical mass with gateway, and then immediately taking your natural, to be a strictly superior response from the Protoss.
That seems fair. It still seems to me that mass marine openings without stim are prone to counter attacks especially by blink stalkers. Of course you can defend with bunkers and SCV's but I feel that such an aggressive opening might not be needed since a one rax fast expand might work better.
However, I do acknowledge you have an opening that allows you to be quite aggressive with a smooth transition afterwards but in my experience, it can be quite risky similar to how my mass stalker counterattack can be.
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On November 03 2010 18:14 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
by 5 minutes theres 7+ roaches out in a roach rush, not to mention a Z could have banelings
im not sure about the other races, but 15 marines all-in at 5 minutes doesnt sound like much of a cheese
blue got savagely dominated trying that out
tried boxers 3 marine 1 scv push?
Tried being boxer?
3 marine 1 scv push will almost never work, especially if you're not boxer, the timing window is so tiny the chances of anyone pulling it off are minuscule. Unless of course, you're playing against a complete retard or someone who's doing an extremely ballsy eco-build.
Besides, 3marines 1 scv will not win you the game even if you kill your opponents 1-2 marines. This strategy will however end the game if the opponent doesn't respond correctly.
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On November 04 2010 22:38 mikell wrote:
can someone ban this terran? i swear his threads are nothing but trolls.
This. They all to seem to be deterministic builds with no analysis.
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U hadn't wall in first replay. It's terrible. Zergling got in your base and scouted everything.
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Suffice to say a gold player drawing 1.4k diamond means the diamond player is like what...450-440 record? Not a quality opponent to cheese against. which is why it worked.
I've heard of a nice 2 rax marine bunker push on zergs that expo before pool. If your lucky, you can get a bunker halfway through before an ovie spots it, and bunker hop up until the devote money into spinecrawlers.
Hence the expo aspect of a 2 rax push.
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On November 03 2010 23:13 gm.tOSS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 18:21 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
does proxying a supply depot work well? Why would you want to proxy a supply depot?
yeah i wasnt thinking properly, but basically my logic was you could pretend you didnt have rax unlocked when the scout comes
scv count would probably give you away, at any rate it wont slow down the other persons BO
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For fun, I tried optimizing the basic build. The best I've done (without scouting SCV) is:
10 depot
11 rax
11 rax (you may want to delay a few seconds; it doesn't need to be built until 1:55)
11 scv
12 rax
And from this point on, you alternate between
* queueing a marine at every rax then building an SCV
* queueing a marine at every rax then building a depot
This gives you 15 marines 15 SCV seconds after 5:00 (I managed it at 5:01 in one of my tries). 16 SCV, if you don't plan on building the next three marines right at 5:00.
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in your build theres no wall, and if u get scouted this cheese will not work, probably. (and if u have wall with 2 rax your opponent will guess everithing too)
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Fair enough. However, I was more interested in the build as applied in 2v2 or 3v3 where a rush is more likely, and would be given away by my partner's base anyways. (And also what sorts of rushes I might have to defend against in 1v1)
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On November 04 2010 03:48 Seide wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 23:13 gm.tOSS wrote:On November 03 2010 18:21 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
does proxying a supply depot work well? Why would you want to proxy a supply depot? How else are you going to power your proxy barracks?
Was this serious or did I miss the joke?
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what if your terran opponent doesn't have a bunker, but decides to pull some scv's of his own and camp the ramp..... then you get slaughtered and insta lose?
like with all cheese - it works when it works... it's still terribly risky and if you employ this build several times in a row you will likely lose, get bored, quit game, load up your favourite FPS or the next episode of supernatural.
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I think I normally have blueflame hellions at 5.00. So good luck if we ever meet on the ladder !
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If a zerg isn't absolutely sleeping, 15 non stim marines is nbd.even stim marines with no medivac is shrug.
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On November 06 2010 22:53 hoovehand wrote:
what if your terran opponent doesn't have a bunker, but decides to pull some scv's of his own and camp the ramp..... then you get slaughtered and insta lose?
like with all cheese - it works when it works... it's still terribly risky and if you employ this build several times in a row you will likely lose, get bored, quit game, load up your favourite FPS or the next episode of supernatural.
as u can see in replay in OP's if my opp hadn't bunker - he would lose even with all his scv's.
u can use this build for TvT, because all hate TvT and u can not select matchup on ladder.
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On November 07 2010 04:09 Nerski wrote:
If a zerg isn't absolutely sleeping, 15 non stim marines is nbd.even stim marines with no medivac is shrug.
but with workers they can do much damage
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how good does the build against toss?
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On November 07 2010 13:14 bjumps wrote:
how good does the build against toss?
i think even better, i just play too few games to give u replay.
I've just got nice idea. If toss ff, then 12 workers can mineral walk and focus fire sentry (if it has enegry for 2nd ff or there's new sentry). But i didn't try it - just a tip for u.
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I already told that u can use scv's to kill sentry with mineral walk. And i saw toss build when he was making fast sentry. So i think its better to build 13 scv's instead of 12, because any way the last marine builds later then others (in BO without scout).
Could someone try to kill sentry with 13 scv's and post replay here? (i dont play because i dont like playing sc2, i prefer dota) [5:00 move, 5:30 attack]
Also i'v noticed that u can allow to build OC just before move to attack (in 13 workers build). U ll need that in case if opponent will kill all your scv's and fly away with building (and u can lose all minerals for autorepair).
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EPT
