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On November 03 2010 23:54 Varth wrote:
Against protoss if they have a small ramp, you will be screwed, however on large ones the worst case scenario you will run into 2 stalkers and one sentry and 1 zealot at 6mins, which is the time you will be able to run across the map. Assuming they are good they will kite the crap outta you and get out 1 more round of warps, and most likely win, however that build is kinda rare to run into.
If this build works that quick after you can get rid of the scout with the first marine, that would be crazy scary, and pretty darn hard to stop as protoss.
*edit so i actually tried it out, and its very very strong, but if you do the timings perfectly you SHOULD be able to squeeze out one more depot near the 26 mark, and be able to reinforce your first attack, I found 6 scvs + marines to be the strongest. Only thing i lost to was a bunkered up Terran, and only because he was stubborn as hell scouting me. Beat a BM cannon rusher as well so good times
yes i agree, one more depot is needed. i didnt't do it in replay, because i'v tried this first time.
i mean u have to take all workers exept one (and have some money for reparing), or u need supply depot (then u can leave some workers for reinforcment).
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It amuses me that so many people are calling a 4-rax push a cheese, even though in certain matchups I believe it's a perfectly solid strategy even if scouted.
I do the 4 rax push as one of my standard TvP builds:
10 SD
11 scout
13 rax
15 rax
16 orbital, marine, sd
constant marine production from 2 rax
add rax one at a time as you can afford them without cutting marines/depots/scv's.
I use my marines aggressively for map control before I push out at about 5:30 and bring 1 SCV from the mineral line, in addition to the scouting SCV that I ideally kept alive. Stop-move micro will MAIM any number of Stalkers on the field at this point, there simply wont be enough of them. Most Protosses are content forcefielding their ramp for defense.
What I do is camp at the bottom of their ramp and try to bait forcefields in exchange for 1 - 2 marines. The idea is to encourage them to make sentries as each sentry they make delays their tech significantly. Being on the aggressive side keeps my fresh expansion from being threatened as well.
6 minutes: expansion
Directly following: double gas
When my expansion is about 70% done or I suspect them doing a bust-out attempt with warpgates, I get bunkers up at my natural and pull back.
I consider this build nowhere near an "all-in" as I consider it safe vs virtually every single opening the Protoss can throw at me, and 4 rax without add-ons uses up nowhere NEAR all my minerals off 1 base. An ebay goes down after the expansion goes up for a quick turret at the choke to stop the first possible DT timing Z (only if I suspect it strongly, such as very early double gas and low unit count), and with my own double gas (soon to be 3 geysers after the expo goes up), a Starport isn't far away (generally for reactor vikings, or even medivacs if I can get away with it).
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ltortoise, your marine attack can be stopped be forcefields or mass stalkers. but my attack, which is earlier, could do better.
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On November 04 2010 22:25 MegaTerran wrote:
ltortoise, your marine attack can be stopped be forcefields or mass stalkers. but my attack, which is earlier, could do better.
Stopped how? The only real goal is to prevent them from expanding while taking my own, and encouraging them to make sentries. I'm not really trying to risk my army or kill the opponent.
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On November 04 2010 22:27 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 22:25 MegaTerran wrote:
ltortoise, your marine attack can be stopped be forcefields or mass stalkers. but my attack, which is earlier, could do better. Stopped how? The only real goal is to prevent them from expanding while taking my own, and encouraging them to make sentries. I'm not really trying to risk my army or kill the opponent.
Yes, but then toss go fast coloss or storm and its gg
The only way to go mass marines i see is to go fast tech after that - viking or banshee.
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can someone ban this terran? i swear his threads are nothing but trolls.
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On November 04 2010 22:37 MegaTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 22:27 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:25 MegaTerran wrote:
ltortoise, your marine attack can be stopped be forcefields or mass stalkers. but my attack, which is earlier, could do better. Stopped how? The only real goal is to prevent them from expanding while taking my own, and encouraging them to make sentries. I'm not really trying to risk my army or kill the opponent. Yes, but then toss go fast coloss or storm and its gg The only way to go mass marines i see is to go fast tech after that - viking or banshee.
Sometimes I wonder why I even bother posting on TL. I try to make a contribution to your thread by giving you a general idea of a build I do ALL THE TIME against Protoss, and pretty much all you have to say is:
"fast coloss/fast storm and its gg."
I have NEVER lost to 1-base Colossus or 1-base storm with my build. Ever. I will have too many marauders by that point, and an additional base of income...
Or the fact that every sentry they make slows their teching by 100 gas?
Seriously, why did I even bother posting in your thread when you just offer mindless criticisms?
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mby your build is possible, i just say that colossi look dangerous. as i know Bratok uses two bunker at natural when he goes fast expo with toss.
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I did this exact build into diamond, but cut the 6 rax allin into a 4rax stim rush. Against protoss you NEVER lose unless they went sentry first. Take an scv or two with you; drop bunkers below the ramp if you get forcefielded; the gas you got for stim and banked will be enough to drop your factory/starport as you expand and you now have your contain set. Against zerg I found this still effective. I tend to leave my stim until the last second when their roaches over extend, than stim and snipe the wounded ones, retreat, and break when the reinforcements come.
Against a terran with a bunker you can cut stim and get conc shells and make 3 marauders from your techrax.
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works in TvT.
i like 10 depot 12 rax 15 oc then add 3 rax. do what you can to make it look like ur FEing
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Fast colossi and HT are so rare these days, and even if the build is scouted, P natural instinct is to mass gateway units to counter the rush, delaying his tech builds. I think the strategy is viable, but probably more as a harass that leads into a victory if you are fortunate enough to be dealing with a toss player who has poor shortgame skills.
If I were going up against this build as a toss, my natural instinct is a cannon wall-in, with sentry/stalkers and hard kiting on those SCVs.
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On November 04 2010 22:44 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 22:37 MegaTerran wrote:On November 04 2010 22:27 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:25 MegaTerran wrote:
ltortoise, your marine attack can be stopped be forcefields or mass stalkers. but my attack, which is earlier, could do better. Stopped how? The only real goal is to prevent them from expanding while taking my own, and encouraging them to make sentries. I'm not really trying to risk my army or kill the opponent. Yes, but then toss go fast coloss or storm and its gg The only way to go mass marines i see is to go fast tech after that - viking or banshee. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother posting on TL. I try to make a contribution to your thread by giving you a general idea of a build I do ALL THE TIME against Protoss, and pretty much all you have to say is: "fast coloss/fast storm and its gg." I have NEVER lost to 1-base Colossus or 1-base storm with my build. Ever. I will have too many marauders by that point, and an additional base of income... Or the fact that every sentry they make slows their teching by 100 gas? Seriously, why did I even bother posting in your thread when you just offer mindless criticisms?
Everytime I see a Terran going mass marines I just get 3 gate blink stalkers and kite. If you're trying to contain with just marines then you won't be able to survive the trip back to your base especially without stim.
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On November 05 2010 00:21 milkywaywu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 22:44 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:37 MegaTerran wrote:On November 04 2010 22:27 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:25 MegaTerran wrote:
ltortoise, your marine attack can be stopped be forcefields or mass stalkers. but my attack, which is earlier, could do better. Stopped how? The only real goal is to prevent them from expanding while taking my own, and encouraging them to make sentries. I'm not really trying to risk my army or kill the opponent. Yes, but then toss go fast coloss or storm and its gg The only way to go mass marines i see is to go fast tech after that - viking or banshee. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother posting on TL. I try to make a contribution to your thread by giving you a general idea of a build I do ALL THE TIME against Protoss, and pretty much all you have to say is: "fast coloss/fast storm and its gg." I have NEVER lost to 1-base Colossus or 1-base storm with my build. Ever. I will have too many marauders by that point, and an additional base of income... Or the fact that every sentry they make slows their teching by 100 gas? Seriously, why did I even bother posting in your thread when you just offer mindless criticisms? Everytime I see a Terran going mass marines I just get 3 gate blink stalkers and kite. If you're trying to contain with just marines then you won't be able to survive the trip back to your base especially without stim.
Blink will never come out by the time I'm at your door knocking (not even remotely close really unless you do something wacky and easily scoutable like going twilight first off 1 gateway), and I'm not going to contain you forever, just for as long as I feel comfortable doing. If I manage to safely start my expansion a good 60 seconds earlier than you (or more), that's generally good enough for me.
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Not sure I would pull this against anyone but another Terran… Against a 1/1/1 opening you can get to their base with say 10 marines, they should only have 5-7 if you rally your Rax to your army, you should kill all their Marines no problem and if they get a tank out Siege won’t be done so you can blast right threw that kill the factories tech lab and then go after the SCV’s
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On November 05 2010 00:54 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 00:21 milkywaywu wrote:On November 04 2010 22:44 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:37 MegaTerran wrote:On November 04 2010 22:27 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:25 MegaTerran wrote:
ltortoise, your marine attack can be stopped be forcefields or mass stalkers. but my attack, which is earlier, could do better. Stopped how? The only real goal is to prevent them from expanding while taking my own, and encouraging them to make sentries. I'm not really trying to risk my army or kill the opponent. Yes, but then toss go fast coloss or storm and its gg The only way to go mass marines i see is to go fast tech after that - viking or banshee. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother posting on TL. I try to make a contribution to your thread by giving you a general idea of a build I do ALL THE TIME against Protoss, and pretty much all you have to say is: "fast coloss/fast storm and its gg." I have NEVER lost to 1-base Colossus or 1-base storm with my build. Ever. I will have too many marauders by that point, and an additional base of income... Or the fact that every sentry they make slows their teching by 100 gas? Seriously, why did I even bother posting in your thread when you just offer mindless criticisms? Everytime I see a Terran going mass marines I just get 3 gate blink stalkers and kite. If you're trying to contain with just marines then you won't be able to survive the trip back to your base especially without stim. Blink will never come out by the time I'm at your door knocking (not even remotely close really unless you do something wacky and easily scoutable like going twilight first off 1 gateway), and I'm not going to contain you forever, just for as long as I feel comfortable doing. If I manage to safely start my expansion a good 60 seconds earlier than you (or more), that's generally good enough for me.
The main focus isn't the blink itself but the fact that Stalkers just out range Marines. The blink helps alot but im quite confident I could stop any sort of early marine pressure with just stalkers one sentry and maybe probes if needed. Marines are too slow vs stalkers and without stim they just plain suck.
Do you transition into tanks afterwards? I hardly ever lose to mass marines with stalkers unless they back it up with tanks/bunkers but even then theres a timing where I could attack.
Why not just go the one rax fast expand instead of the early pressure? I feel it wouldn't do much at all.
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On November 05 2010 01:15 milkywaywu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 00:54 ltortoise wrote:On November 05 2010 00:21 milkywaywu wrote:On November 04 2010 22:44 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:37 MegaTerran wrote:On November 04 2010 22:27 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:25 MegaTerran wrote:
ltortoise, your marine attack can be stopped be forcefields or mass stalkers. but my attack, which is earlier, could do better. Stopped how? The only real goal is to prevent them from expanding while taking my own, and encouraging them to make sentries. I'm not really trying to risk my army or kill the opponent. Yes, but then toss go fast coloss or storm and its gg The only way to go mass marines i see is to go fast tech after that - viking or banshee. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother posting on TL. I try to make a contribution to your thread by giving you a general idea of a build I do ALL THE TIME against Protoss, and pretty much all you have to say is: "fast coloss/fast storm and its gg." I have NEVER lost to 1-base Colossus or 1-base storm with my build. Ever. I will have too many marauders by that point, and an additional base of income... Or the fact that every sentry they make slows their teching by 100 gas? Seriously, why did I even bother posting in your thread when you just offer mindless criticisms? Everytime I see a Terran going mass marines I just get 3 gate blink stalkers and kite. If you're trying to contain with just marines then you won't be able to survive the trip back to your base especially without stim. Blink will never come out by the time I'm at your door knocking (not even remotely close really unless you do something wacky and easily scoutable like going twilight first off 1 gateway), and I'm not going to contain you forever, just for as long as I feel comfortable doing. If I manage to safely start my expansion a good 60 seconds earlier than you (or more), that's generally good enough for me. The main focus isn't the blink itself but the fact that Stalkers just out range Marines. The blink helps alot but im quite confident I could stop any sort of early marine pressure with just stalkers one sentry and maybe probes if needed. Marines are too slow vs stalkers and without stim they just plain suck. Do you transition into tanks afterwards? I hardly ever lose to mass marines with stalkers unless they back it up with tanks/bunkers but even then theres a timing where I could attack. Why not just go the one rax fast expand instead of the early pressure? I feel it wouldn't do much at all.
I transition into full MnMnM or MnM + Viking depending on the tech path of the Protoss. The goal is 4 rax with add-ons and a reactor starport off 2 base.
If you go pure/mostly Stalker (which is mostly fine, you can hold but I think it's kind of hairy), I can almost guarantee you that you will have to pull probes to defend. What happens 90% of the time at this point is that due to the low sentry count, I will bust up the ramp and start a bunker at your gateway/pylons and then run after your Stalkers to push them away from the Bunker.
(keep in mind meanwhile my gas is going up and my expansion is going up).
Every time your Stalker stop-moves, you get farther away from that bunker. If you fall within range of the marines for just a moment, a Stalker can take terrible damage if not die pretty much immediately. If I manage to bust up the ramp and get a few probe kills as my bunker is going up, I almost always consider this a huge gain even if I lose a decent chunk of the Marines.
From my own experience I consider defending with forcefields until you hit critical mass with gateway, and then immediately taking your natural, to be a strictly superior response from the Protoss.
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I've experimented with a 6 rax all in...something along the lines of 10 depot 12 rax 15 oc then drop 5 more rax ASAP. You get something around 26-28 marines at about the 6:30 mark, but when I got into diamond it really stopped working. I really like 4rax with stim push much more.
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On November 03 2010 18:14 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
by 5 minutes theres 7+ roaches out in a roach rush, not to mention a Z could have banelings
im not sure about the other races, but 15 marines all-in at 5 minutes doesnt sound like much of a cheese
blue got savagely dominated trying that out
tried boxers 3 marine 1 scv push?
banelings without speed are not an issue for marines, proof of this is from Foxers play vs zerg, and well me stealing mass marine medic strat from him and testing it vs zerg out of 12 games with zerg i have defeated 9 of them while they were making lots of lings/banes, the roaches can be an issue but nothing 1-2 marauders couldnt handle with a large marine army.
i dont know why the creator of this post says which marine cheese is best... i mean you have 4 barracks no reason to think of this as cheese... on the other hand i really don't know how well this would work, i honestly don't think you could produce from all 4 rax with 12 scv's and if you could you wouldn't have any income to build more SCV's which makes this build have such a small lifespan it wouldn't be worth the econ hit, why not just get 3 rax with some ad-ons and expand while pressuring?
if you want this all in to work well i think you would need to proxy atleast 1 of the barracks for quicker reinforcements. or 2 of them
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On November 05 2010 01:15 milkywaywu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 00:54 ltortoise wrote:On November 05 2010 00:21 milkywaywu wrote:On November 04 2010 22:44 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:37 MegaTerran wrote:On November 04 2010 22:27 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:25 MegaTerran wrote:
ltortoise, your marine attack can be stopped be forcefields or mass stalkers. but my attack, which is earlier, could do better. Stopped how? The only real goal is to prevent them from expanding while taking my own, and encouraging them to make sentries. I'm not really trying to risk my army or kill the opponent. Yes, but then toss go fast coloss or storm and its gg The only way to go mass marines i see is to go fast tech after that - viking or banshee. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother posting on TL. I try to make a contribution to your thread by giving you a general idea of a build I do ALL THE TIME against Protoss, and pretty much all you have to say is: "fast coloss/fast storm and its gg." I have NEVER lost to 1-base Colossus or 1-base storm with my build. Ever. I will have too many marauders by that point, and an additional base of income... Or the fact that every sentry they make slows their teching by 100 gas? Seriously, why did I even bother posting in your thread when you just offer mindless criticisms? Everytime I see a Terran going mass marines I just get 3 gate blink stalkers and kite. If you're trying to contain with just marines then you won't be able to survive the trip back to your base especially without stim. Blink will never come out by the time I'm at your door knocking (not even remotely close really unless you do something wacky and easily scoutable like going twilight first off 1 gateway), and I'm not going to contain you forever, just for as long as I feel comfortable doing. If I manage to safely start my expansion a good 60 seconds earlier than you (or more), that's generally good enough for me. The main focus isn't the blink itself but the fact that Stalkers just out range Marines. The blink helps alot but im quite confident I could stop any sort of early marine pressure with just stalkers one sentry and maybe probes if needed. Marines are too slow vs stalkers and without stim they just plain suck. Do you transition into tanks afterwards? I hardly ever lose to mass marines with stalkers unless they back it up with tanks/bunkers but even then theres a timing where I could attack. Why not just go the one rax fast expand instead of the early pressure? I feel it wouldn't do much at all.
yes, i dont like marine builds because they lose even to stalker/zealot/sentry and stim dosnt help. so if i go marines than i prefer to go all-in rush, but not make this transition to mid game. (but i can see this viable just to survive with FE and then fast tech, or just fast tech)
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EPT
