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The main question i want to discuss in this topic: which marine cheese is best.
Build Order:
10 depot 12 rax 12 depot 12 three rax
At 5:00 you will have 15 rines and 12 scv's. You take 6-12 scv's in attack, dont forget to turn auto-repair on.
Which problems you can have with that build:
1. If scout came to your base before you walled-in. You can kill scout and then place 3 rax, but probably you'll have worse timing.
2. Your opponent is playing with bunker. (so its harder to use my build with terrans  )
http://zergit.ru/replays/Aniwizzyhaha vs AeonFlux 2010-11-03 12 42 49.SC2Replay
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by 5 minutes theres 7+ roaches out in a roach rush, not to mention a Z could have banelings
im not sure about the other races, but 15 marines all-in at 5 minutes doesnt sound like much of a cheese
blue got savagely dominated trying that out
tried boxers 3 marine 1 scv push?
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I prefer the 6 rax cheese even if it hits a little later (depot rax depot at wall, cut workers after orbital then wait 750 minerals and throw 5 more raxes, then push after 3 marines rounds), it's much more powerful imo and your worker count is just enough to support 6 rax marines.
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On November 03 2010 18:14 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
by 5 minutes theres 7+ roaches out in a roach rush, not to mention a Z could have banelings
im not sure about the other races, but 15 marines all-in at 5 minutes doesnt sound like much of a cheese
blue got savagely dominated trying that out
tried boxers 3 marine 1 scv push?
I agree with this man. And what's the point of having auto repair on if your attacking with marines + SCVs? :S
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scvs heal each other and tank
as to whether thats better or worse than them attacking though
probably better off using the money to makereinforcements
does proxying a supply depot work well?
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I pulled this against another Terran the other day, he sent me hate mail for an hour... Bunkers hurt this tho
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On November 03 2010 18:21 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
does proxying a supply depot work well?
Why would you want to proxy a supply depot?
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definitely hard to pull off vs better players. and the fact that this is *so* all in turns me off this build. Mass Marine pushes can be done with transitions later on. I feel vs terran this is easily countered... id be tempted to try it vs zerg.
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I lost to this a couple weeks ago though it was entirely do to mismicro on my part. Against protoss a forcefielded ramp will basically beat this straight up (I lost because I misplaced the forcefield, so it goes). So, you are saying its tough v. terran, and I think against protoss you'll have a hard time, so that leaves just zerg, how well do they do against it?
I mean, you might be able to win with this all in build from time to time, but it seems to me if you are going to go all in, there are likely better options.
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On November 03 2010 23:18 n0xi3 wrote:
definitely hard to pull off vs better players. and the fact that this is *so* all in turns me off this build. Mass Marine pushes can be done with transitions later on. I feel vs terran this is easily countered... id be tempted to try it vs zerg.
15 non stimmed marines vs 7 roaches?
or you go for a later one and at 6 mins i believe you can get out 20 roaches with the fastest build in the zerg build order optimizer thread.
Heck 15 rines vs 1 spinecrawler + 2 queens + 12+ lings with speed and...
The biggest problem is lack of stim, and stim comes later. Rine DPS is a little lack luster without it unless they have a meat shield to back it up.
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I have a few questions about defending against this type of push:
Build order is 1-1-1
Wall off with 2-depot and barracks
Tech on barracks after 2-rines, stim training
Produce M,M&M with hellions
When this push comes I think I would have (I think this is approx where I would be at 5-min):
3-rines, 1-marauder, 1-hellion, 1-medivac
With 1-rauder, 1-hellion and 1-medivac training
So if this is scouted the best tactic to defend would be:
-move barracks and make bunker at ramp and have scv ready to repair?
-and pull back units till production cycle finishes?
-then engage with depots still up?
Something else?
Thanks,
-E
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Against protoss if they have a small ramp, you will be screwed, however on large ones the worst case scenario you will run into 2 stalkers and one sentry and 1 zealot at 6mins, which is the time you will be able to run across the map. Assuming they are good they will kite the crap outta you and get out 1 more round of warps, and most likely win, however that build is kinda rare to run into.
If this build works that quick after you can get rid of the scout with the first marine, that would be crazy scary, and pretty darn hard to stop as protoss.
*edit so i actually tried it out, and its very very strong, but if you do the timings perfectly you SHOULD be able to squeeze out one more depot near the 26 mark, and be able to reinforce your first attack, I found 6 scvs + marines to be the strongest. Only thing i lost to was a bunkered up Terran, and only because he was stubborn as hell scouting me. Beat a BM cannon rusher as well so good times
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For their cost, marine dps is one of the highest. Also scvs =meat shield. That being said I question this build on account of the fact that any good Zerg player will be able to stop this, any moderate Protoss micro will deny this, and a solid terran wall, especially with bunker, will stop this cold.
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I only see this working against terran, the other races can easily stop it. Maybe if the map pool was different protoss might have issues, but not with the current pool.
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I've done it consistently in my TvT matchups. It is very, very effective. It can be a legit BO that is pulled off once in a while. I do it a little differently. I proxy 2 raxes in very unlikely spots. Usually the opponent fails to scout them in time. I also deny them intel with the marines. When they scan, they usually see 2 raxes (one with tech lab) and a handful of marines - exactly what I want them to see, because it can mean many things.
Is it hidden tech? Banshee cheese? Just a 2-1-1, with a hidden factory? Some kind of drop? 2 rax FE?
Well, it's hard to guess the marine-scv all in the first time round, so most T's try to streamline their build so much they don't bunker. And that's when I go for the kill.
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On November 03 2010 18:07 MegaTerran wrote:The main question i want to discuss in this topic: which marine cheese is best.
Build Order:10 depot 12 rax 12 depot 12 three rax At 5:00 you will have 15 rines and 12 scv's. You take 6-12 scv's in attack, dont forget to turn auto-repair on. Which problems you can have with that build:1. If scout came to your base before you walled-in. You can kill scout and then place 3 rax, but probably you'll have worse timing. 2. Your opponent is playing with bunker. (so its harder to use my build with terrans ) http://zergit.ru/replays/Aniwizzyhaha vs AeonFlux 2010-11-03 12 42 49.SC2Replay
5 mins with only 15 marines isn't much. I have a 1 rax 2 factory push TvP and it hits around 7:30 and its pretty solid force. Cheese only workers on the careless and if you really want to improve your game don't even bother learning them.
With cheese you'll start winning and will get addicted to it. To the point that your regular game is going down the crapper. 
P.S. To do marine cheese your gonna need to cut workers to get the supply and the Rax out faster. 10/12 is as economic as Terran gets with a safe opening. Its like saying 14 pool cheese.
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Its something I'd consider ONLY if I saw a Zerg FE before pool.
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On November 03 2010 23:13 gm.tOSS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 18:21 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
does proxying a supply depot work well? Why would you want to proxy a supply depot?
How else are you going to power your proxy barracks?
But on the note of the cheese, I have used it before, and it works. If Zerg scouts it, and actually get banelings, you have to micro well or you could be in trouble.
Against toss, sentries stop this, but I see it working very well atleast up to diamond since many protoss forego sentries at that level, if your marine kiting is decent.
Though to be honest, a 2 rax reactor/techlab, stim timing push probably packs a stronger punch agaisnt both races compared to this 4 rax marine cheese
To mod who warned me for the troll bait: Sorry was editing post and adding more as I got the warning, so your text got edited out on accident
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On November 03 2010 23:27 SnuggleZhenya wrote:
I lost to this a couple weeks ago though it was entirely do to mismicro on my part. Against protoss a forcefielded ramp will basically beat this straight up (I lost because I misplaced the forcefield, so it goes). So, you are saying its tough v. terran, and I think against protoss you'll have a hard time, so that leaves just zerg, how well do they do against it?
I mean, you might be able to win with this all in build from time to time, but it seems to me if you are going to go all in, there are likely better options.
Protoss today think they are too cool to build sentries
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On November 03 2010 23:50 Eeryck wrote:
I have a few questions about defending against this type of push:
Build order is 1-1-1
Wall off with 2-depot and barracks
Tech on barracks after 2-rines, stim training
Produce M,M&M with hellions
When this push comes I think I would have (I think this is approx where I would be at 5-min):
3-rines, 1-marauder, 1-hellion, 1-medivac
With 1-rauder, 1-hellion and 1-medivac training
So if this is scouted the best tactic to defend would be:
-move barracks and make bunker at ramp and have scv ready to repair?
-and pull back units till production cycle finishes?
-then engage with depots still up?
Something else?
Thanks,
-E
only bunker can save you. i always place bunker (behind depot) when i go tech
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EPT
