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The main question i want to discuss in this topic: which marine cheese is best.
Build Order:
10 depot 12 rax 12 depot 12 three rax
At 5:00 you will have 15 rines and 12 scv's. You take 6-12 scv's in attack, dont forget to turn auto-repair on.
Which problems you can have with that build:
1. If scout came to your base before you walled-in. You can kill scout and then place 3 rax, but probably you'll have worse timing.
2. Your opponent is playing with bunker. (so its harder to use my build with terrans  )
http://zergit.ru/replays/Aniwizzyhaha vs AeonFlux 2010-11-03 12 42 49.SC2Replay
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by 5 minutes theres 7+ roaches out in a roach rush, not to mention a Z could have banelings
im not sure about the other races, but 15 marines all-in at 5 minutes doesnt sound like much of a cheese
blue got savagely dominated trying that out
tried boxers 3 marine 1 scv push?
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I prefer the 6 rax cheese even if it hits a little later (depot rax depot at wall, cut workers after orbital then wait 750 minerals and throw 5 more raxes, then push after 3 marines rounds), it's much more powerful imo and your worker count is just enough to support 6 rax marines.
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On November 03 2010 18:14 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
by 5 minutes theres 7+ roaches out in a roach rush, not to mention a Z could have banelings
im not sure about the other races, but 15 marines all-in at 5 minutes doesnt sound like much of a cheese
blue got savagely dominated trying that out
tried boxers 3 marine 1 scv push?
I agree with this man. And what's the point of having auto repair on if your attacking with marines + SCVs? :S
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scvs heal each other and tank
as to whether thats better or worse than them attacking though
probably better off using the money to makereinforcements
does proxying a supply depot work well?
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I pulled this against another Terran the other day, he sent me hate mail for an hour... Bunkers hurt this tho
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On November 03 2010 18:21 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
does proxying a supply depot work well?
Why would you want to proxy a supply depot?
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definitely hard to pull off vs better players. and the fact that this is *so* all in turns me off this build. Mass Marine pushes can be done with transitions later on. I feel vs terran this is easily countered... id be tempted to try it vs zerg.
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I lost to this a couple weeks ago though it was entirely do to mismicro on my part. Against protoss a forcefielded ramp will basically beat this straight up (I lost because I misplaced the forcefield, so it goes). So, you are saying its tough v. terran, and I think against protoss you'll have a hard time, so that leaves just zerg, how well do they do against it?
I mean, you might be able to win with this all in build from time to time, but it seems to me if you are going to go all in, there are likely better options.
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On November 03 2010 23:18 n0xi3 wrote:
definitely hard to pull off vs better players. and the fact that this is *so* all in turns me off this build. Mass Marine pushes can be done with transitions later on. I feel vs terran this is easily countered... id be tempted to try it vs zerg.
15 non stimmed marines vs 7 roaches?
or you go for a later one and at 6 mins i believe you can get out 20 roaches with the fastest build in the zerg build order optimizer thread.
Heck 15 rines vs 1 spinecrawler + 2 queens + 12+ lings with speed and...
The biggest problem is lack of stim, and stim comes later. Rine DPS is a little lack luster without it unless they have a meat shield to back it up.
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I have a few questions about defending against this type of push:
Build order is 1-1-1
Wall off with 2-depot and barracks
Tech on barracks after 2-rines, stim training
Produce M,M&M with hellions
When this push comes I think I would have (I think this is approx where I would be at 5-min):
3-rines, 1-marauder, 1-hellion, 1-medivac
With 1-rauder, 1-hellion and 1-medivac training
So if this is scouted the best tactic to defend would be:
-move barracks and make bunker at ramp and have scv ready to repair?
-and pull back units till production cycle finishes?
-then engage with depots still up?
Something else?
Thanks,
-E
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Against protoss if they have a small ramp, you will be screwed, however on large ones the worst case scenario you will run into 2 stalkers and one sentry and 1 zealot at 6mins, which is the time you will be able to run across the map. Assuming they are good they will kite the crap outta you and get out 1 more round of warps, and most likely win, however that build is kinda rare to run into.
If this build works that quick after you can get rid of the scout with the first marine, that would be crazy scary, and pretty darn hard to stop as protoss.
*edit so i actually tried it out, and its very very strong, but if you do the timings perfectly you SHOULD be able to squeeze out one more depot near the 26 mark, and be able to reinforce your first attack, I found 6 scvs + marines to be the strongest. Only thing i lost to was a bunkered up Terran, and only because he was stubborn as hell scouting me. Beat a BM cannon rusher as well so good times
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For their cost, marine dps is one of the highest. Also scvs =meat shield. That being said I question this build on account of the fact that any good Zerg player will be able to stop this, any moderate Protoss micro will deny this, and a solid terran wall, especially with bunker, will stop this cold.
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I only see this working against terran, the other races can easily stop it. Maybe if the map pool was different protoss might have issues, but not with the current pool.
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I've done it consistently in my TvT matchups. It is very, very effective. It can be a legit BO that is pulled off once in a while. I do it a little differently. I proxy 2 raxes in very unlikely spots. Usually the opponent fails to scout them in time. I also deny them intel with the marines. When they scan, they usually see 2 raxes (one with tech lab) and a handful of marines - exactly what I want them to see, because it can mean many things.
Is it hidden tech? Banshee cheese? Just a 2-1-1, with a hidden factory? Some kind of drop? 2 rax FE?
Well, it's hard to guess the marine-scv all in the first time round, so most T's try to streamline their build so much they don't bunker. And that's when I go for the kill.
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On November 03 2010 18:07 MegaTerran wrote:The main question i want to discuss in this topic: which marine cheese is best.
Build Order:10 depot 12 rax 12 depot 12 three rax At 5:00 you will have 15 rines and 12 scv's. You take 6-12 scv's in attack, dont forget to turn auto-repair on. Which problems you can have with that build:1. If scout came to your base before you walled-in. You can kill scout and then place 3 rax, but probably you'll have worse timing. 2. Your opponent is playing with bunker. (so its harder to use my build with terrans ) http://zergit.ru/replays/Aniwizzyhaha vs AeonFlux 2010-11-03 12 42 49.SC2Replay
5 mins with only 15 marines isn't much. I have a 1 rax 2 factory push TvP and it hits around 7:30 and its pretty solid force. Cheese only workers on the careless and if you really want to improve your game don't even bother learning them.
With cheese you'll start winning and will get addicted to it. To the point that your regular game is going down the crapper. 
P.S. To do marine cheese your gonna need to cut workers to get the supply and the Rax out faster. 10/12 is as economic as Terran gets with a safe opening. Its like saying 14 pool cheese.
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Its something I'd consider ONLY if I saw a Zerg FE before pool.
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On November 03 2010 23:13 gm.tOSS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 18:21 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
does proxying a supply depot work well? Why would you want to proxy a supply depot?
How else are you going to power your proxy barracks?
But on the note of the cheese, I have used it before, and it works. If Zerg scouts it, and actually get banelings, you have to micro well or you could be in trouble.
Against toss, sentries stop this, but I see it working very well atleast up to diamond since many protoss forego sentries at that level, if your marine kiting is decent.
Though to be honest, a 2 rax reactor/techlab, stim timing push probably packs a stronger punch agaisnt both races compared to this 4 rax marine cheese
To mod who warned me for the troll bait: Sorry was editing post and adding more as I got the warning, so your text got edited out on accident
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On November 03 2010 23:27 SnuggleZhenya wrote:
I lost to this a couple weeks ago though it was entirely do to mismicro on my part. Against protoss a forcefielded ramp will basically beat this straight up (I lost because I misplaced the forcefield, so it goes). So, you are saying its tough v. terran, and I think against protoss you'll have a hard time, so that leaves just zerg, how well do they do against it?
I mean, you might be able to win with this all in build from time to time, but it seems to me if you are going to go all in, there are likely better options.
Protoss today think they are too cool to build sentries
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On November 03 2010 23:50 Eeryck wrote:
I have a few questions about defending against this type of push:
Build order is 1-1-1
Wall off with 2-depot and barracks
Tech on barracks after 2-rines, stim training
Produce M,M&M with hellions
When this push comes I think I would have (I think this is approx where I would be at 5-min):
3-rines, 1-marauder, 1-hellion, 1-medivac
With 1-rauder, 1-hellion and 1-medivac training
So if this is scouted the best tactic to defend would be:
-move barracks and make bunker at ramp and have scv ready to repair?
-and pull back units till production cycle finishes?
-then engage with depots still up?
Something else?
Thanks,
-E
only bunker can save you. i always place bunker (behind depot) when i go tech
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On November 03 2010 23:54 Varth wrote:
Against protoss if they have a small ramp, you will be screwed, however on large ones the worst case scenario you will run into 2 stalkers and one sentry and 1 zealot at 6mins, which is the time you will be able to run across the map. Assuming they are good they will kite the crap outta you and get out 1 more round of warps, and most likely win, however that build is kinda rare to run into.
If this build works that quick after you can get rid of the scout with the first marine, that would be crazy scary, and pretty darn hard to stop as protoss.
*edit so i actually tried it out, and its very very strong, but if you do the timings perfectly you SHOULD be able to squeeze out one more depot near the 26 mark, and be able to reinforce your first attack, I found 6 scvs + marines to be the strongest. Only thing i lost to was a bunkered up Terran, and only because he was stubborn as hell scouting me. Beat a BM cannon rusher as well so good times
yes i agree, one more depot is needed. i didnt't do it in replay, because i'v tried this first time.
i mean u have to take all workers exept one (and have some money for reparing), or u need supply depot (then u can leave some workers for reinforcment).
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It amuses me that so many people are calling a 4-rax push a cheese, even though in certain matchups I believe it's a perfectly solid strategy even if scouted.
I do the 4 rax push as one of my standard TvP builds:
10 SD
11 scout
13 rax
15 rax
16 orbital, marine, sd
constant marine production from 2 rax
add rax one at a time as you can afford them without cutting marines/depots/scv's.
I use my marines aggressively for map control before I push out at about 5:30 and bring 1 SCV from the mineral line, in addition to the scouting SCV that I ideally kept alive. Stop-move micro will MAIM any number of Stalkers on the field at this point, there simply wont be enough of them. Most Protosses are content forcefielding their ramp for defense.
What I do is camp at the bottom of their ramp and try to bait forcefields in exchange for 1 - 2 marines. The idea is to encourage them to make sentries as each sentry they make delays their tech significantly. Being on the aggressive side keeps my fresh expansion from being threatened as well.
6 minutes: expansion
Directly following: double gas
When my expansion is about 70% done or I suspect them doing a bust-out attempt with warpgates, I get bunkers up at my natural and pull back.
I consider this build nowhere near an "all-in" as I consider it safe vs virtually every single opening the Protoss can throw at me, and 4 rax without add-ons uses up nowhere NEAR all my minerals off 1 base. An ebay goes down after the expansion goes up for a quick turret at the choke to stop the first possible DT timing Z (only if I suspect it strongly, such as very early double gas and low unit count), and with my own double gas (soon to be 3 geysers after the expo goes up), a Starport isn't far away (generally for reactor vikings, or even medivacs if I can get away with it).
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ltortoise, your marine attack can be stopped be forcefields or mass stalkers. but my attack, which is earlier, could do better.
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On November 04 2010 22:25 MegaTerran wrote:
ltortoise, your marine attack can be stopped be forcefields or mass stalkers. but my attack, which is earlier, could do better.
Stopped how? The only real goal is to prevent them from expanding while taking my own, and encouraging them to make sentries. I'm not really trying to risk my army or kill the opponent.
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On November 04 2010 22:27 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 22:25 MegaTerran wrote:
ltortoise, your marine attack can be stopped be forcefields or mass stalkers. but my attack, which is earlier, could do better. Stopped how? The only real goal is to prevent them from expanding while taking my own, and encouraging them to make sentries. I'm not really trying to risk my army or kill the opponent.
Yes, but then toss go fast coloss or storm and its gg
The only way to go mass marines i see is to go fast tech after that - viking or banshee.
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can someone ban this terran? i swear his threads are nothing but trolls.
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On November 04 2010 22:37 MegaTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 22:27 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:25 MegaTerran wrote:
ltortoise, your marine attack can be stopped be forcefields or mass stalkers. but my attack, which is earlier, could do better. Stopped how? The only real goal is to prevent them from expanding while taking my own, and encouraging them to make sentries. I'm not really trying to risk my army or kill the opponent. Yes, but then toss go fast coloss or storm and its gg The only way to go mass marines i see is to go fast tech after that - viking or banshee.
Sometimes I wonder why I even bother posting on TL. I try to make a contribution to your thread by giving you a general idea of a build I do ALL THE TIME against Protoss, and pretty much all you have to say is:
"fast coloss/fast storm and its gg."
I have NEVER lost to 1-base Colossus or 1-base storm with my build. Ever. I will have too many marauders by that point, and an additional base of income...
Or the fact that every sentry they make slows their teching by 100 gas?
Seriously, why did I even bother posting in your thread when you just offer mindless criticisms?
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mby your build is possible, i just say that colossi look dangerous. as i know Bratok uses two bunker at natural when he goes fast expo with toss.
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I did this exact build into diamond, but cut the 6 rax allin into a 4rax stim rush. Against protoss you NEVER lose unless they went sentry first. Take an scv or two with you; drop bunkers below the ramp if you get forcefielded; the gas you got for stim and banked will be enough to drop your factory/starport as you expand and you now have your contain set. Against zerg I found this still effective. I tend to leave my stim until the last second when their roaches over extend, than stim and snipe the wounded ones, retreat, and break when the reinforcements come.
Against a terran with a bunker you can cut stim and get conc shells and make 3 marauders from your techrax.
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works in TvT.
i like 10 depot 12 rax 15 oc then add 3 rax. do what you can to make it look like ur FEing
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Fast colossi and HT are so rare these days, and even if the build is scouted, P natural instinct is to mass gateway units to counter the rush, delaying his tech builds. I think the strategy is viable, but probably more as a harass that leads into a victory if you are fortunate enough to be dealing with a toss player who has poor shortgame skills.
If I were going up against this build as a toss, my natural instinct is a cannon wall-in, with sentry/stalkers and hard kiting on those SCVs.
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On November 04 2010 22:44 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 22:37 MegaTerran wrote:On November 04 2010 22:27 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:25 MegaTerran wrote:
ltortoise, your marine attack can be stopped be forcefields or mass stalkers. but my attack, which is earlier, could do better. Stopped how? The only real goal is to prevent them from expanding while taking my own, and encouraging them to make sentries. I'm not really trying to risk my army or kill the opponent. Yes, but then toss go fast coloss or storm and its gg The only way to go mass marines i see is to go fast tech after that - viking or banshee. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother posting on TL. I try to make a contribution to your thread by giving you a general idea of a build I do ALL THE TIME against Protoss, and pretty much all you have to say is: "fast coloss/fast storm and its gg." I have NEVER lost to 1-base Colossus or 1-base storm with my build. Ever. I will have too many marauders by that point, and an additional base of income... Or the fact that every sentry they make slows their teching by 100 gas? Seriously, why did I even bother posting in your thread when you just offer mindless criticisms?
Everytime I see a Terran going mass marines I just get 3 gate blink stalkers and kite. If you're trying to contain with just marines then you won't be able to survive the trip back to your base especially without stim.
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On November 05 2010 00:21 milkywaywu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 22:44 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:37 MegaTerran wrote:On November 04 2010 22:27 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:25 MegaTerran wrote:
ltortoise, your marine attack can be stopped be forcefields or mass stalkers. but my attack, which is earlier, could do better. Stopped how? The only real goal is to prevent them from expanding while taking my own, and encouraging them to make sentries. I'm not really trying to risk my army or kill the opponent. Yes, but then toss go fast coloss or storm and its gg The only way to go mass marines i see is to go fast tech after that - viking or banshee. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother posting on TL. I try to make a contribution to your thread by giving you a general idea of a build I do ALL THE TIME against Protoss, and pretty much all you have to say is: "fast coloss/fast storm and its gg." I have NEVER lost to 1-base Colossus or 1-base storm with my build. Ever. I will have too many marauders by that point, and an additional base of income... Or the fact that every sentry they make slows their teching by 100 gas? Seriously, why did I even bother posting in your thread when you just offer mindless criticisms? Everytime I see a Terran going mass marines I just get 3 gate blink stalkers and kite. If you're trying to contain with just marines then you won't be able to survive the trip back to your base especially without stim.
Blink will never come out by the time I'm at your door knocking (not even remotely close really unless you do something wacky and easily scoutable like going twilight first off 1 gateway), and I'm not going to contain you forever, just for as long as I feel comfortable doing. If I manage to safely start my expansion a good 60 seconds earlier than you (or more), that's generally good enough for me.
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Not sure I would pull this against anyone but another Terran… Against a 1/1/1 opening you can get to their base with say 10 marines, they should only have 5-7 if you rally your Rax to your army, you should kill all their Marines no problem and if they get a tank out Siege won’t be done so you can blast right threw that kill the factories tech lab and then go after the SCV’s
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On November 05 2010 00:54 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 00:21 milkywaywu wrote:On November 04 2010 22:44 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:37 MegaTerran wrote:On November 04 2010 22:27 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:25 MegaTerran wrote:
ltortoise, your marine attack can be stopped be forcefields or mass stalkers. but my attack, which is earlier, could do better. Stopped how? The only real goal is to prevent them from expanding while taking my own, and encouraging them to make sentries. I'm not really trying to risk my army or kill the opponent. Yes, but then toss go fast coloss or storm and its gg The only way to go mass marines i see is to go fast tech after that - viking or banshee. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother posting on TL. I try to make a contribution to your thread by giving you a general idea of a build I do ALL THE TIME against Protoss, and pretty much all you have to say is: "fast coloss/fast storm and its gg." I have NEVER lost to 1-base Colossus or 1-base storm with my build. Ever. I will have too many marauders by that point, and an additional base of income... Or the fact that every sentry they make slows their teching by 100 gas? Seriously, why did I even bother posting in your thread when you just offer mindless criticisms? Everytime I see a Terran going mass marines I just get 3 gate blink stalkers and kite. If you're trying to contain with just marines then you won't be able to survive the trip back to your base especially without stim. Blink will never come out by the time I'm at your door knocking (not even remotely close really unless you do something wacky and easily scoutable like going twilight first off 1 gateway), and I'm not going to contain you forever, just for as long as I feel comfortable doing. If I manage to safely start my expansion a good 60 seconds earlier than you (or more), that's generally good enough for me.
The main focus isn't the blink itself but the fact that Stalkers just out range Marines. The blink helps alot but im quite confident I could stop any sort of early marine pressure with just stalkers one sentry and maybe probes if needed. Marines are too slow vs stalkers and without stim they just plain suck.
Do you transition into tanks afterwards? I hardly ever lose to mass marines with stalkers unless they back it up with tanks/bunkers but even then theres a timing where I could attack.
Why not just go the one rax fast expand instead of the early pressure? I feel it wouldn't do much at all.
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On November 05 2010 01:15 milkywaywu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 00:54 ltortoise wrote:On November 05 2010 00:21 milkywaywu wrote:On November 04 2010 22:44 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:37 MegaTerran wrote:On November 04 2010 22:27 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:25 MegaTerran wrote:
ltortoise, your marine attack can be stopped be forcefields or mass stalkers. but my attack, which is earlier, could do better. Stopped how? The only real goal is to prevent them from expanding while taking my own, and encouraging them to make sentries. I'm not really trying to risk my army or kill the opponent. Yes, but then toss go fast coloss or storm and its gg The only way to go mass marines i see is to go fast tech after that - viking or banshee. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother posting on TL. I try to make a contribution to your thread by giving you a general idea of a build I do ALL THE TIME against Protoss, and pretty much all you have to say is: "fast coloss/fast storm and its gg." I have NEVER lost to 1-base Colossus or 1-base storm with my build. Ever. I will have too many marauders by that point, and an additional base of income... Or the fact that every sentry they make slows their teching by 100 gas? Seriously, why did I even bother posting in your thread when you just offer mindless criticisms? Everytime I see a Terran going mass marines I just get 3 gate blink stalkers and kite. If you're trying to contain with just marines then you won't be able to survive the trip back to your base especially without stim. Blink will never come out by the time I'm at your door knocking (not even remotely close really unless you do something wacky and easily scoutable like going twilight first off 1 gateway), and I'm not going to contain you forever, just for as long as I feel comfortable doing. If I manage to safely start my expansion a good 60 seconds earlier than you (or more), that's generally good enough for me. The main focus isn't the blink itself but the fact that Stalkers just out range Marines. The blink helps alot but im quite confident I could stop any sort of early marine pressure with just stalkers one sentry and maybe probes if needed. Marines are too slow vs stalkers and without stim they just plain suck. Do you transition into tanks afterwards? I hardly ever lose to mass marines with stalkers unless they back it up with tanks/bunkers but even then theres a timing where I could attack. Why not just go the one rax fast expand instead of the early pressure? I feel it wouldn't do much at all.
I transition into full MnMnM or MnM + Viking depending on the tech path of the Protoss. The goal is 4 rax with add-ons and a reactor starport off 2 base.
If you go pure/mostly Stalker (which is mostly fine, you can hold but I think it's kind of hairy), I can almost guarantee you that you will have to pull probes to defend. What happens 90% of the time at this point is that due to the low sentry count, I will bust up the ramp and start a bunker at your gateway/pylons and then run after your Stalkers to push them away from the Bunker.
(keep in mind meanwhile my gas is going up and my expansion is going up).
Every time your Stalker stop-moves, you get farther away from that bunker. If you fall within range of the marines for just a moment, a Stalker can take terrible damage if not die pretty much immediately. If I manage to bust up the ramp and get a few probe kills as my bunker is going up, I almost always consider this a huge gain even if I lose a decent chunk of the Marines.
From my own experience I consider defending with forcefields until you hit critical mass with gateway, and then immediately taking your natural, to be a strictly superior response from the Protoss.
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I've experimented with a 6 rax all in...something along the lines of 10 depot 12 rax 15 oc then drop 5 more rax ASAP. You get something around 26-28 marines at about the 6:30 mark, but when I got into diamond it really stopped working. I really like 4rax with stim push much more.
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On November 03 2010 18:14 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
by 5 minutes theres 7+ roaches out in a roach rush, not to mention a Z could have banelings
im not sure about the other races, but 15 marines all-in at 5 minutes doesnt sound like much of a cheese
blue got savagely dominated trying that out
tried boxers 3 marine 1 scv push?
banelings without speed are not an issue for marines, proof of this is from Foxers play vs zerg, and well me stealing mass marine medic strat from him and testing it vs zerg out of 12 games with zerg i have defeated 9 of them while they were making lots of lings/banes, the roaches can be an issue but nothing 1-2 marauders couldnt handle with a large marine army.
i dont know why the creator of this post says which marine cheese is best... i mean you have 4 barracks no reason to think of this as cheese... on the other hand i really don't know how well this would work, i honestly don't think you could produce from all 4 rax with 12 scv's and if you could you wouldn't have any income to build more SCV's which makes this build have such a small lifespan it wouldn't be worth the econ hit, why not just get 3 rax with some ad-ons and expand while pressuring?
if you want this all in to work well i think you would need to proxy atleast 1 of the barracks for quicker reinforcements. or 2 of them
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On November 05 2010 01:15 milkywaywu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 00:54 ltortoise wrote:On November 05 2010 00:21 milkywaywu wrote:On November 04 2010 22:44 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:37 MegaTerran wrote:On November 04 2010 22:27 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:25 MegaTerran wrote:
ltortoise, your marine attack can be stopped be forcefields or mass stalkers. but my attack, which is earlier, could do better. Stopped how? The only real goal is to prevent them from expanding while taking my own, and encouraging them to make sentries. I'm not really trying to risk my army or kill the opponent. Yes, but then toss go fast coloss or storm and its gg The only way to go mass marines i see is to go fast tech after that - viking or banshee. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother posting on TL. I try to make a contribution to your thread by giving you a general idea of a build I do ALL THE TIME against Protoss, and pretty much all you have to say is: "fast coloss/fast storm and its gg." I have NEVER lost to 1-base Colossus or 1-base storm with my build. Ever. I will have too many marauders by that point, and an additional base of income... Or the fact that every sentry they make slows their teching by 100 gas? Seriously, why did I even bother posting in your thread when you just offer mindless criticisms? Everytime I see a Terran going mass marines I just get 3 gate blink stalkers and kite. If you're trying to contain with just marines then you won't be able to survive the trip back to your base especially without stim. Blink will never come out by the time I'm at your door knocking (not even remotely close really unless you do something wacky and easily scoutable like going twilight first off 1 gateway), and I'm not going to contain you forever, just for as long as I feel comfortable doing. If I manage to safely start my expansion a good 60 seconds earlier than you (or more), that's generally good enough for me. The main focus isn't the blink itself but the fact that Stalkers just out range Marines. The blink helps alot but im quite confident I could stop any sort of early marine pressure with just stalkers one sentry and maybe probes if needed. Marines are too slow vs stalkers and without stim they just plain suck. Do you transition into tanks afterwards? I hardly ever lose to mass marines with stalkers unless they back it up with tanks/bunkers but even then theres a timing where I could attack. Why not just go the one rax fast expand instead of the early pressure? I feel it wouldn't do much at all.
yes, i dont like marine builds because they lose even to stalker/zealot/sentry and stim dosnt help. so if i go marines than i prefer to go all-in rush, but not make this transition to mid game. (but i can see this viable just to survive with FE and then fast tech, or just fast tech)
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On November 05 2010 02:57 Nazarid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 18:14 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
by 5 minutes theres 7+ roaches out in a roach rush, not to mention a Z could have banelings
im not sure about the other races, but 15 marines all-in at 5 minutes doesnt sound like much of a cheese
blue got savagely dominated trying that out
tried boxers 3 marine 1 scv push? banelings without speed are not an issue for marines, proof of this is from Foxers play vs zerg, and well me stealing mass marine medic strat from him and testing it vs zerg out of 12 games with zerg i have defeated 9 of them while they were making lots of lings/banes, the roaches can be an issue but nothing 1-2 marauders couldnt handle with a large marine army. i dont know why the creator of this post says which marine cheese is best... i mean you have 4 barracks no reason to think of this as cheese... on the other hand i really don't know how well this would work, i honestly don't think you could produce from all 4 rax with 12 scv's and if you could you wouldn't have any income to build more SCV's which makes this build have such a small lifespan it wouldn't be worth the econ hit, why not just get 3 rax with some ad-ons and expand while pressuring? if you want this all in to work well i think you would need to proxy atleast 1 of the barracks for quicker reinforcements. or 2 of them
thats why this is cheese and and all-in - because i cut scv's production. proxy can be scouted and requiers one worker which dons't gather for a long time. my build can't be scouted so its better.
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On November 05 2010 01:29 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 01:15 milkywaywu wrote:On November 05 2010 00:54 ltortoise wrote:On November 05 2010 00:21 milkywaywu wrote:On November 04 2010 22:44 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:37 MegaTerran wrote:On November 04 2010 22:27 ltortoise wrote:On November 04 2010 22:25 MegaTerran wrote:
ltortoise, your marine attack can be stopped be forcefields or mass stalkers. but my attack, which is earlier, could do better. Stopped how? The only real goal is to prevent them from expanding while taking my own, and encouraging them to make sentries. I'm not really trying to risk my army or kill the opponent. Yes, but then toss go fast coloss or storm and its gg The only way to go mass marines i see is to go fast tech after that - viking or banshee. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother posting on TL. I try to make a contribution to your thread by giving you a general idea of a build I do ALL THE TIME against Protoss, and pretty much all you have to say is: "fast coloss/fast storm and its gg." I have NEVER lost to 1-base Colossus or 1-base storm with my build. Ever. I will have too many marauders by that point, and an additional base of income... Or the fact that every sentry they make slows their teching by 100 gas? Seriously, why did I even bother posting in your thread when you just offer mindless criticisms? Everytime I see a Terran going mass marines I just get 3 gate blink stalkers and kite. If you're trying to contain with just marines then you won't be able to survive the trip back to your base especially without stim. Blink will never come out by the time I'm at your door knocking (not even remotely close really unless you do something wacky and easily scoutable like going twilight first off 1 gateway), and I'm not going to contain you forever, just for as long as I feel comfortable doing. If I manage to safely start my expansion a good 60 seconds earlier than you (or more), that's generally good enough for me. The main focus isn't the blink itself but the fact that Stalkers just out range Marines. The blink helps alot but im quite confident I could stop any sort of early marine pressure with just stalkers one sentry and maybe probes if needed. Marines are too slow vs stalkers and without stim they just plain suck. Do you transition into tanks afterwards? I hardly ever lose to mass marines with stalkers unless they back it up with tanks/bunkers but even then theres a timing where I could attack. Why not just go the one rax fast expand instead of the early pressure? I feel it wouldn't do much at all. I transition into full MnMnM or MnM + Viking depending on the tech path of the Protoss. The goal is 4 rax with add-ons and a reactor starport off 2 base. If you go pure/mostly Stalker (which is mostly fine, you can hold but I think it's kind of hairy), I can almost guarantee you that you will have to pull probes to defend. What happens 90% of the time at this point is that due to the low sentry count, I will bust up the ramp and start a bunker at your gateway/pylons and then run after your Stalkers to push them away from the Bunker. (keep in mind meanwhile my gas is going up and my expansion is going up). Every time your Stalker stop-moves, you get farther away from that bunker. If you fall within range of the marines for just a moment, a Stalker can take terrible damage if not die pretty much immediately. If I manage to bust up the ramp and get a few probe kills as my bunker is going up, I almost always consider this a huge gain even if I lose a decent chunk of the Marines. From my own experience I consider defending with forcefields until you hit critical mass with gateway, and then immediately taking your natural, to be a strictly superior response from the Protoss.
That seems fair. It still seems to me that mass marine openings without stim are prone to counter attacks especially by blink stalkers. Of course you can defend with bunkers and SCV's but I feel that such an aggressive opening might not be needed since a one rax fast expand might work better.
However, I do acknowledge you have an opening that allows you to be quite aggressive with a smooth transition afterwards but in my experience, it can be quite risky similar to how my mass stalker counterattack can be.
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On November 03 2010 18:14 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
by 5 minutes theres 7+ roaches out in a roach rush, not to mention a Z could have banelings
im not sure about the other races, but 15 marines all-in at 5 minutes doesnt sound like much of a cheese
blue got savagely dominated trying that out
tried boxers 3 marine 1 scv push?
Tried being boxer?
3 marine 1 scv push will almost never work, especially if you're not boxer, the timing window is so tiny the chances of anyone pulling it off are minuscule. Unless of course, you're playing against a complete retard or someone who's doing an extremely ballsy eco-build.
Besides, 3marines 1 scv will not win you the game even if you kill your opponents 1-2 marines. This strategy will however end the game if the opponent doesn't respond correctly.
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On November 04 2010 22:38 mikell wrote:
can someone ban this terran? i swear his threads are nothing but trolls.
This. They all to seem to be deterministic builds with no analysis.
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U hadn't wall in first replay. It's terrible. Zergling got in your base and scouted everything.
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Suffice to say a gold player drawing 1.4k diamond means the diamond player is like what...450-440 record? Not a quality opponent to cheese against. which is why it worked.
I've heard of a nice 2 rax marine bunker push on zergs that expo before pool. If your lucky, you can get a bunker halfway through before an ovie spots it, and bunker hop up until the devote money into spinecrawlers.
Hence the expo aspect of a 2 rax push.
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On November 03 2010 23:13 gm.tOSS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 18:21 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
does proxying a supply depot work well? Why would you want to proxy a supply depot?
yeah i wasnt thinking properly, but basically my logic was you could pretend you didnt have rax unlocked when the scout comes
scv count would probably give you away, at any rate it wont slow down the other persons BO
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For fun, I tried optimizing the basic build. The best I've done (without scouting SCV) is:
10 depot
11 rax
11 rax (you may want to delay a few seconds; it doesn't need to be built until 1:55)
11 scv
12 rax
And from this point on, you alternate between
* queueing a marine at every rax then building an SCV
* queueing a marine at every rax then building a depot
This gives you 15 marines 15 SCV seconds after 5:00 (I managed it at 5:01 in one of my tries). 16 SCV, if you don't plan on building the next three marines right at 5:00.
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in your build theres no wall, and if u get scouted this cheese will not work, probably. (and if u have wall with 2 rax your opponent will guess everithing too)
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Fair enough. However, I was more interested in the build as applied in 2v2 or 3v3 where a rush is more likely, and would be given away by my partner's base anyways. (And also what sorts of rushes I might have to defend against in 1v1)
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On November 04 2010 03:48 Seide wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 23:13 gm.tOSS wrote:On November 03 2010 18:21 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
does proxying a supply depot work well? Why would you want to proxy a supply depot? How else are you going to power your proxy barracks?
Was this serious or did I miss the joke?
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what if your terran opponent doesn't have a bunker, but decides to pull some scv's of his own and camp the ramp..... then you get slaughtered and insta lose?
like with all cheese - it works when it works... it's still terribly risky and if you employ this build several times in a row you will likely lose, get bored, quit game, load up your favourite FPS or the next episode of supernatural.
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I think I normally have blueflame hellions at 5.00. So good luck if we ever meet on the ladder !
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If a zerg isn't absolutely sleeping, 15 non stim marines is nbd.even stim marines with no medivac is shrug.
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On November 06 2010 22:53 hoovehand wrote:
what if your terran opponent doesn't have a bunker, but decides to pull some scv's of his own and camp the ramp..... then you get slaughtered and insta lose?
like with all cheese - it works when it works... it's still terribly risky and if you employ this build several times in a row you will likely lose, get bored, quit game, load up your favourite FPS or the next episode of supernatural.
as u can see in replay in OP's if my opp hadn't bunker - he would lose even with all his scv's.
u can use this build for TvT, because all hate TvT and u can not select matchup on ladder.
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On November 07 2010 04:09 Nerski wrote:
If a zerg isn't absolutely sleeping, 15 non stim marines is nbd.even stim marines with no medivac is shrug.
but with workers they can do much damage
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how good does the build against toss?
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On November 07 2010 13:14 bjumps wrote:
how good does the build against toss?
i think even better, i just play too few games to give u replay.
I've just got nice idea. If toss ff, then 12 workers can mineral walk and focus fire sentry (if it has enegry for 2nd ff or there's new sentry). But i didn't try it - just a tip for u.
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I already told that u can use scv's to kill sentry with mineral walk. And i saw toss build when he was making fast sentry. So i think its better to build 13 scv's instead of 12, because any way the last marine builds later then others (in BO without scout).
Could someone try to kill sentry with 13 scv's and post replay here? (i dont play because i dont like playing sc2, i prefer dota) [5:00 move, 5:30 attack]
Also i'v noticed that u can allow to build OC just before move to attack (in 13 workers build). U ll need that in case if opponent will kill all your scv's and fly away with building (and u can lose all minerals for autorepair).
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EDIT: whoops, didn't look at the date. Please delete.
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A top2 diamond with 60 apm? Seems a bit odd. Oo
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EPT
