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On November 09 2010 23:29 statikg wrote:
I don't know why everyone wants to incorporates tanks into this strategy, that is absolutely not the right way to take this game plan. I really enjoy this strat in part because it DOES NOT involve the fragile and difficult to employ tanks. Tanks need so much careful scouting and micro. The replay above is a perfect example, first tank, does nothing except take minerals/gas when more marines/upgrades in the first push could have made all the difference. The second tank, sits in base the whole game and never fires a shot, no more tanks.
IMO this strategy lives and dies on your marine splitting micro and never ending waves of attack so the zerg can't drone up or catch his breath. I think that a much better evolution of this strategy is to dump that gas into early banshees. Banshees fit into the overall strategy MUCH better.
Lets look at the pros and cons:
Tank
pro:
one shots banelings
splash
con:
-slow and immobile - if you don't see the banelings coming you may not be in seige mode, hence removing the entire point of the tanks - cant retreat from most zerg units
-fragile
-needs extra upgrade
-alot of friendly fire issues with speedlings
Banshee
pro:
harassment - queen sniping especially can give you a HUGE advantage in a strategy that is largely about forcing larva usage - hence an easy win - DO THIS IMMEDIATELY WHEN YOU GET 2, definitely move to the expansion to get the other queen even over killing drones
survivability - can kill zerg ground with much lower possibility of death - easy to retreat and repair
forces mutas or hydras - both of which are units you want to fight with marines, also alot less gas available for banelings
other
fits perfectly into your tech plan\
can easily be grouped into your raven control group later on
zerg will be scared to try to push your base until he has an answer for the banshees
all this can be accomplished by adding only 2 banshess
con:
not nearly as effective as tanks at killing banlings
-> however that said, you have to keep in mind that tanks may not be that effective in a fast run and gun game either AND over a long game, your banshess live to fight again so they may end up killing as many banelings over time.
I think a few banshees into ravens would be better than the first two ravens.
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You realy want to get a raven first, because with the raven push you clear as much creep as possible, which is essential to beating banelings, maybe then you can make a few banshees, but raven first is much better, you dont want to be spending scans, since you realy want as many minerals as possible
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I'm not really sure that, thats the case cilinder, surely you can agree that killing a queen in the early-midgame when employing this larva forcing strategy is a big deal. You might get a few more banelings before your marines all die if you can kill some creep, but I don't think thats a good trade-off for killing a queen, as well you could just delay your first raven push for 1 game minute, or hit at the same time with your marines and banshees, hence reducing the zergs ability to micro his banelings (or sacrifice ALOT of drones while he micros. Anyway I'm going to experiment further with banshees first and I will report back.
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Im a zerg player and I'd love to practice against this strategy. If anyone wants to try it out vs me then please feel free to add me. Character name and code are in my sig and I'm 1700 diamond for a rough evaluation of my skill level.
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On November 10 2010 01:23 frog HERO wrote:
Im a zerg player and I'd love to practice against this strategy. If anyone wants to try it out vs me then please feel free to add me. Character name and code are in my sig and I'm 1700 diamond for a rough evaluation of my skill level.
I'll definitely hit you up. I want to try some different variatons and transitions and I'm woefully low on Zerg practice partners 
Hopefully we can come up with some good replays of wins and losses to share as well, as long as you don't mind trolls saying "both players were garbage this strat suxxors!!!1"
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i finally got time to read the entire OP, i saw the post ages ago and read part but it was long and i was tired lol.
I actually used this strat the other day, I went for 2port banshee but didn't notice his overseer sat just out of vision of my main and flew 4 of them right by. By the time the 4th joined the group and i moved in for a big banshee attack he had hydra's and spore crawlers out. I panicked thining he was reading my mind, or worse... hacking... he wasn't obv... i was just a moron...i should have gone straight in with the first two anyways.
Anyways, after taking alot of damage to by banshee's and wondering what to do next.... this thread popped into my head. I already have 2 ports, i just got my natural up to full speed and had alot of income to spend. Went up to 5 rax, constantly pumped rines and ravens until 150 food and crushed him. He had hydra/muta and they literally got 4 kills between them lol.
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i played against this build and its not as scary as you make it seem. It's more of a wtf is he doing, and wow this is annoying. he couldnt really do much because i just defended until he mined out his nat and kept him on that, my composition of units was infestor ling bling, ultra. i had at least 10 infestors so if i caught him with a fungal that was 3-4 dead ravens at least... I was surprised at how many he was able to get in a short amount of time, but still, nothing hard to deal with. although the guy i was playing did not really play aggressively. but just harrassed with ravens
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On November 10 2010 03:43 Senorcuidado wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 01:23 frog HERO wrote:
Im a zerg player and I'd love to practice against this strategy. If anyone wants to try it out vs me then please feel free to add me. Character name and code are in my sig and I'm 1700 diamond for a rough evaluation of my skill level. I'll definitely hit you up. I want to try some different variatons and transitions and I'm woefully low on Zerg practice partners Hopefully we can come up with some good replays of wins and losses to share as well, as long as you don't mind trolls saying "both players were garbage this strat suxxors!!!1"
Haha yeah I think I can handle that. I'll be on tonight around 7-8pm EST and would definitely be down to experiment. I haven't had much experience playing against this build on the ladder so I feel like this will be very helpful for both of us.
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On November 10 2010 05:11 frog HERO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 03:43 Senorcuidado wrote:On November 10 2010 01:23 frog HERO wrote:
Im a zerg player and I'd love to practice against this strategy. If anyone wants to try it out vs me then please feel free to add me. Character name and code are in my sig and I'm 1700 diamond for a rough evaluation of my skill level. I'll definitely hit you up. I want to try some different variatons and transitions and I'm woefully low on Zerg practice partners Hopefully we can come up with some good replays of wins and losses to share as well, as long as you don't mind trolls saying "both players were garbage this strat suxxors!!!1" Haha yeah I think I can handle that. I'll be on tonight around 7-8pm EST and would definitely be down to experiment. I haven't had much experience playing against this build on the ladder so I feel like this will be very helpful for both of us.
Awesome. I'll be home a little later than you (west coast) but I'll hit you up when I get on. You can add me too.
SenorCuidado.723
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On November 10 2010 04:08 PeT[uK] wrote:
i played against this build and its not as scary as you make it seem. It's more of a wtf is he doing, and wow this is annoying. he couldnt really do much because i just defended until he mined out his nat and kept him on that, my composition of units was infestor ling bling, ultra. i had at least 10 infestors so if i caught him with a fungal that was 3-4 dead ravens at least... I was surprised at how many he was able to get in a short amount of time, but still, nothing hard to deal with. although the guy i was playing did not really play aggressively. but just harrassed with ravens
Can you post the replay please ?
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On November 10 2010 04:08 PeT[uK] wrote:
i played against this build and its not as scary as you make it seem. It's more of a wtf is he doing, and wow this is annoying. he couldnt really do much because i just defended until he mined out his nat and kept him on that, my composition of units was infestor ling bling, ultra. i had at least 10 infestors so if i caught him with a fungal that was 3-4 dead ravens at least... I was surprised at how many he was able to get in a short amount of time, but still, nothing hard to deal with. although the guy i was playing did not really play aggressively. but just harrassed with ravens
On the times that I fail with this build (and it does happen often enough) it's generally to bad marine micro. I can break that down into the following:
Case A: Bad marine micro where the banelings basically strike for best possible outcome. This is also a compounded by the fact the opponent doesn't DURP DURP BANELINGS and morph all his zerglings, so in the end he has about 8 or so lings that my scvs can't handle yet. Generally if they do morph all their lings and sacrifice their lings, it's basically playing right into the build and forcing larva towards combat units.
Case B: The marine pokes fail due to a poor target selection. Shooting something like an overlord or the hatch/refinery instead of moving into a nice pocket to get nice ball to shoot out of. The same thing happens where the exchange in units just is too poor and results in zerglings being leftover to overwhelm the front, or at the very least stop mining from your natural.
Outside of marine micro, there is one other thing that I find can sometimes throw a spanner in the works if you're not prepared, and that's basically the early roach rush. If I see the roach warren I throw down the bunker after i start the CC and before the 3rd depot, placing it just a little back from the ramp forces the roaches in a choke and allows an scv to repair out of range.
That's pretty much it, I'll agree that baneling/roach/infestor demand a lot from your micro, but I've found so far that if it's at that point, you should be in pretty good shape.
The build is just straight up FUN to play.
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I've played a LOT of Terrans that have been doing this lately... I have yet to lose to it. My muta/ling infestor eats it up. =/
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There are lots of bad Zergs and lots of bad Terrans on the ladder so its not surprising. I went undefeated with this for a long time until Zergs figured out that they can't take a free third.
I would want to see some reps where Zerg wins in a game where Terran didn't fail or suck.
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Q) Madisonstreet do u always open up with bunker block off of 2 rax or 1 rax if your oppenent is 15 hatch? or do u try any other openers ive recently tried ur bunker blocks and they are quite effective into holding off zerg 15 hatch and also forcing 1 base play which is easily defendable for me after delaying and forcing their play so much. The worst game i had by doing that was a bangling bust which i still ended up winning cause my 2nd was up longer then his.
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On November 10 2010 08:59 dbosworld wrote:
I've played a LOT of Terrans that have been doing this lately... I have yet to lose to it. My muta/ling infestor eats it up. =/
replays ?
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On November 10 2010 09:23 xVeta wrote:
Q) Madisonstreet do u always open up with bunker block off of 2 rax or 1 rax if your oppenent is 15 hatch? or do u try any other openers ive recently tried ur bunker blocks and they are quite effective into holding off zerg 15 hatch and also forcing 1 base play which is easily defendable for me after delaying and forcing their play so much. The worst game i had by doing that was a bangling bust which i still ended up winning cause my 2nd was up longer then his.
Sometimes its not possible. You either fail to take a favorable position or the zerg blocks his own ramp. In which case proceed to bunker into his natural from the outside of the creep ring.
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PainUser just won against mTwDimaga, using a marine, rauder, and raven build.
he just massed those auto-turrets, and threw in some medvacs
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Awesome :D Rep or VOD? We should make a Liquipedia article for this eventually if anyone is up for editing TEX.
Does anyone else keep losing their Natural to Roach/Ling all-ins when zerg beats back the first massive Marine/Raven push but still win the game?
I just won a game on Blistering Sands where I went MR and transitioned into a no base float to gold build.
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Gott head to work but DEFINATELY gonna give this a thorough read when I get home.
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I haven't really used the 2rax opening or KME all that much.
I've been incorporating a different opening.
1 hellion > 1 banshee > 1 viking > 1 medivac > 1 raven
oribital command opening
marine
factory @ 100 gas
@ 400 minerals CC
hellion
starport
tech lab on factory
swap at 100%
banshee
viking
add more barracks and ebays
With one hellion you can take out some lings and gain some early map control, followed by one banshee you'll save yourself from ling/roach pressure early on and use the extra money that you would spend on a bunker. With that early of a banshee, you can make the zerg spend too much on getting extra queens and spores thinking cloak or 2port banshee which can be just as effective as early marine pokes.
Instead get a viking and expand. The viking can harass overlords and defend against mutas, so no money needs to be spent on turrets. If the mutas try to engage the viking they'll also be in range of marines. Tossing in the early medivac is for extra energy when you move out and if need be stimming against muta harass.
Although you secure your natural much later than 2rax or KME openings, the early banshee and viking free up some money to be used on getting your barracks and ebays up instead of bunkers and turrets. The first major push to the zerg's 3rd can easily have: 30+ 1/1 marines, medivac, banshee, viking, and raven.
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EPT
