EPT[G]TvZ Marine/Raven - Page 23
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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Moderas
United States78 Posts
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dahorns
21 Posts
On November 06 2010 00:43 Antisocialmunky wrote: If people thought Thor/Hellion was ridiculous, I think this would be even worse. Zerg would probably just get banelings/infestors but then you can just get more marines and air. 5Rax Marine/4port cloaked banshee or 2port BC is something I have not yet had the pleasure to mess with. The transition to 2 port BC seems pretty smooth, especially if you forgo the raven upgrades. 2 saturated bases supports 4 Rax w/ Reactor and 2 port BC with room for upgrades. If you build the fusion core immediately after your starports you have time to build a Raven (to control creep) and a couple of banshees or medivacs before starting BCs. In practice I'm getting my first 2 cruisers around the 14 minute mark. While your cruisers are slow, they can allow you to control the middle of the map and provide a nice safety zone for your marines. Keeping your cruisers behind your marine ball keeps them relatively safe and allows your marines to stim back to the cruisers to deal with blings. Infestors could NP them, but it leaves them pretty easy targets for the marines/banshees. Even if the infestors caught the cruisers alone, NP is pretty worthless when the cruisers can only attack each other. They simply don't do enough damage to each other to matter. Mutalisks melt to battlecruisers, corrupters would be useless against the marine ball leaving hydralisks as probably your biggest threat. Fortunately hydralisks are slow like cruisers so it is relatively easy to escape to the safety of your newest marine ball. Once you get a sufficient mass of cruisers pushing with them should finish the game and it feels like you get that mass earlier than the critical mass of ravens. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
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dahorns
21 Posts
On November 08 2010 05:34 Senorcuidado wrote: Since zergs so often already have a spire, it's easy for them to make a metric shitload of corruptors to kill the bcs. They actually take a while to die from marine fire, I think they do better than hydras since hydras melt to marines. If the Zerg skipped his spire and stuck with lings and infestors then I can see surprise battlecruisers doing a bunch of damage but they would have to be a surprise. They are also super duper slow and unlike ravens they will kill or be killed - no retreating when things aren't looking so hot. In terms of pure dps for cost, a bunch of autoturrets probably wins as well, plus you don't lose the ravens. Energy is fungible! Yeah, probably right. Seems like they might be more useful on smaller maps. The idea wasn't to push with the cruisers, but to keep them pretty far behind the lines so they don't get killed. Keep them near your rallying marines. Push with the rines, pull back to cruisers once blings pop out, push back out. Similar to what you'd do with siege tanks. | ||
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Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
BC: 8(damage) / .23(attack speed) = 34.78 dps autoturret: 8 / .8 = 10 dps, each. Raven at full energy means 4 turrets, 40 dps. Raven energy is very situational so it's hard to make direct comparisons, but if we account for cost and build time: raven: 100/200, 60 seconds, 2 supply BC: 400/300, 90 seconds, 6 supply A raven is worth 1.5 battlecruisers in terms of gas and build time, and half(rather than a third) the supply cost if you account for build time, which imo you should when looking at the whole picture. /tangent: It's complicated, but basically with constant production ravens will consume 2 supply per minute while cruisers will consume 4 supply per minute, which is what really matters when building depots to keep up with production. Either way, ravens still have a significant advantage in this department, I just didnt want to overly confuse people with such a lesser known concept. /endtangent We can balance gas and build time, and be aware of the supply advantage, but what about the mineral difference? 1.5 ravens being equal to a cruiser leaves (400-150) 250 minerals, which means 5 more marines. Marines do about 8 dps each at +1, and much much more with further upgrades and stim pack. We will assume 8 for sinplicity's sake but the real number in the late game should be closer to 15. [(9/.86)X1.5 at +3 with stim, feel free to double check that for me] anyway, 5 marines at 8 dps each is another 40 dps! Okay, let's err on the low side and say that every raven will only have enough energy for 2 turrets. In reality, with time accruing and the energy upgrade several will have enough for 3 or 4. 2 turrets each is 20 dps, or 30 per equal cost of ravens vs. the 34.78 dps of cruisers. Any raven that has a third turret swings it dramatically in their favor, up to 45 dps per equal cost of the cruiser's 34.78. But they still aren't really equal cost, so let's add the five marines (of course this ruins supply cost comparisons but the numbers are convincing enough) and their very conservative estimate of 40 dps (can range to about 75). Now the ravens plus marines, all with very very lowball estimates of energy and upgrades, are doing 70 dps at the minimum, doubling the battlecruiser's ~35! Phew. That was a lot of fun. It's not really conclusive, though. BC upgrades scale very very well with their .23 attack speed. Marines die, ravens have varying amounts of energy, supply differentials cannot really balance although that isn't too major. Autoturrets take up space, which can be good or bad. They can be used to protect marines which is huge, but they often can't all be thrown down at once for lack of space or time or apm. hsm and pdd might come into play. The superior mobility of ravens, their detection for killing creep, and the fact that they don't eat into the marine count as much lead me to the conclusion that they are the better choice. Dps comparisons were solely to satisfy my curiosity. DO NOT use these calculations to make crazy claims that cruisers are terrible or marines are imba, blah blah blah. Nothing exists in a vacuum, there are way too many variables, and I'm telling you right now that these numbers are not proof of ANYTHING that you can apply as absolute rules of Starcraft. I'm also not trying to prove anything at all so don't bother trolling. They are just interesting. | ||
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Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
On November 08 2010 05:42 dahorns wrote: Yeah, probably right. Seems like they might be more useful on smaller maps. The idea wasn't to push with the cruisers, but to keep them pretty far behind the lines so they don't get killed. Keep them near your rallying marines. Push with the rines, pull back to cruisers once blings pop out, push back out. Similar to what you'd do with siege tanks. they can be good, especially on a smaller map, but I probably wouldn't use them like tanks. 2 cruisers can actually be a great supplement to a midgame push, then you can go back to making ravens or something. As far as protecting marines from banelings, tanks do a much better job anyway. You can probably just steal a win right there with the first two cruisers if he didn't get a spire, not a bad mixup since the spire is kind of bad against marine raven. Most zergs will want to stick with lings, banelings, infestors, maybe roaches, none of which will help against two cruisers. I'm actually kind of liking this idea...just don't mass them, they're too easy to counter if you give him time. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
It's worked half decent on bigger open maps like meta, or LT where you can choke your PF's with +2 armor upgrade. Then you gotta drop harass with marines to at least hinder his expo, force more drones, and upgrade upgrade upgrade. I got maybe 1 recent TvZ where I did such a thing on meta. Couldn't stop expo, so I expo myself and then just mass marines. Banelings have to be split around or picked up and ran from. I'm sure if I mixed in seige tanks, it'd make for quicker games, but when I get a 3rd or 4th base with two PF's, I'm content to stay marines due to my refresh rate. I only do it vs muta zergs. I'd rather face a roacher than a mutaer any god damn day. | ||
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dahorns
21 Posts
On November 08 2010 07:07 Senorcuidado wrote: they can be good, especially on a smaller map, but I probably wouldn't use them like tanks. 2 cruisers can actually be a great supplement to a midgame push, then you can go back to making ravens or something. As far as protecting marines from banelings, tanks do a much better job anyway. You can probably just steal a win right there with the first two cruisers if he didn't get a spire, not a bad mixup since the spire is kind of bad against marine raven. Most zergs will want to stick with lings, banelings, infestors, maybe roaches, none of which will help against two cruisers. I'm actually kind of liking this idea...just don't mass them, they're too easy to counter if you give him time. Seems like a nice way to mix in a seldom used Terran unit. Because of the battlecruiser build time, it fits in nicely with this build. It uses slightly more minerals (about the same in gas) per game time as building ravens. You can afford to build them off 2 bases with this build while not affecting your marine production too extensively. It's an easy transition back to raven/banshee/medivac. Most Zerg still build Mutas for harass, but as long as they don't scout the core you'll have a nice mid game push before they can get Corruptors in the air. Always can bring a few scvs for repair as well. If the Zerg over plays the corruptors you'll punish him pretty badly when you switch back to medivacs/ravens. | ||
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MadisonStreet
United States161 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-164011.jpg) | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On November 08 2010 18:29 MadisonStreet wrote: New replay of lategame bio efficiency vs baneling / infestor / muta Wow, that is a lot of sexy drop and marine micro. :D Its like watching QXC and the execution was better than Select. My only issue with all the reps you've given me is they are almost all marine/tank->marine/medivac. That's fine because it illustrates the power of bio pressure and how stupid it gets with 3/3 + heal. However notice how much energy your medivacs build up because the only thing they get to heal is stim. When it comes to enemy damage, the marines instantly melt to bling/roach acid. Granted you had the gold and the game at that point but just notice that for a second with me. Also notice all the extra gas you have and how it has 1:2 ratio with your extra minerals. If you go marine with some tanks into medivacs off the gas from your first base and then add a second starport and third starport(with your third base) with tech lab to start massing ravens, I feel that your army would be more efficient and utilize all the resources from all your bases... The ravens would be a late game transition and will pretty much win the game if you manage to mass them and keep the zerg expo count down. Drop turrets, HSM snipe, force zerg to waste his money on mutas or hydras that die to marines and tanks respectively. Hydras are also immobile so he wouldn't be able to counter so much. Plus, he had to keep going mass ground to bust those tank lines. I think KME started doing a similar transition into Tanks + Medivacs into mass raven late game. I mean, what you and most Terrans at the bleeding edge of strategy are doing is fine with just this mid-game composition but once zerg manages to figure out how to not die to marines (play more tactical with their units and positioning), you're going to have to transition to a late game which will probably be Ravens or BCs or pure mech. Its just some honest feedback. Thanks for being so generous with your reps. :D | ||
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MadisonStreet
United States161 Posts
On November 08 2010 22:07 Antisocialmunky wrote: Wow, that is a lot of sexy drop and marine micro. :D Its like watching QXC and the execution was better than Select. My only issue with all the reps you've given me is they are almost all marine/tank->marine/medivac. That's fine because it illustrates the power of bio pressure and how stupid it gets with 3/3 + heal. However notice how much energy your medivacs build up because the only thing they get to heal is stim. When it comes to enemy damage, the marines instantly melt to bling/roach acid. Granted you had the gold and the game at that point but just notice that for a second with me. Also notice all the extra gas you have and how it has 1:2 ratio with your extra minerals. If you go marine with some tanks into medivacs off the gas from your first base and then add a second starport and third starport(with your third base) with tech lab to start massing ravens, I feel that your army would be more efficient and utilize all the resources from all your bases.. Drop turrets, HSM snipe, force zerg to waste his money on mutas or hydras that die to marines and tanks respectively. Hydras are also immobile so he wouldn't be able to counter so much. Plus, he had to keep going mass ground to bust those tank lines. I think KME started doing a similar transition into Tanks + Medivacs into mass raven late game. Its just some honest feedback. Thanks for being so generous with your reps. :D To be honest I use to play traditional SK terran. I just completely stopped using ravens though HSM is a pos compared to its pre beta nerf. And I feel tanks provide better support for banelings. Your right about the build up of gas and maybe some late tier 3 tech - battlecruisers might be incorporated in some strategy. But for now marines and bio aggresion seem alot safer. | ||
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MadisonStreet
United States161 Posts
On November 08 2010 22:12 MadisonStreet wrote: To be honest I use to play traditional SK terran. I just completely stopped using ravens though HSM is a pos compared to its pre beta nerf. And I feel tanks provide better support for banelings. Your right about the build up of gas and maybe some late tier 3 tech - battlecruisers might be incorporated in some strategy. But for now marines and bio aggresion seem alot safer. Np and thank you for the compliments | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
I mean, what you and most Terrans at the bleeding edge of strategy are doing is fine with just this mid-game composition but once zerg manages to figure out how to not die to marines (play more tactical with their units and positioning), you're going to have to transition to a late game which will probably be Ravens or BCs or pure mech. I'm not saying go pure Marine/Raven because that is becoming less feasible but a transition into a mass raven late game along with both tanks and Medivacs is quite feasible. Just because we don't need it yet doesn't mean that we shouldn't screw with the meta and force zerg to fear another unit :D I mean, I don't think you even used any of the reactor ports you built in the corner. EDI: Okay, you build 2 medivacs 1 at a time but still. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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SnipedSoul
Canada2158 Posts
My initial thoughts are that this build is very good against the average zerg around my level (~1500 diamond). I forgot to save replays, but in all the games the zerg were just overpowered by the sheer number of marines and once I had 10-15 ravens up there was nothing they could do. I even had a game where my opponent made about 20 mutas and then the rest was ling/bling. My marine micro is really bad and I ended up losing MASSIVE amounts of marines to his banelings. The marines I built during the fight were easily able to hold off any pushes once his banelings did their work. When he ran out of gas the game was over as he was unable to hold a 3rd for more than a minute after I scouted it. Thanks, OP. This build is really fun and is very strong against the typical muta/ling/bling builds. I never encountered infestors but I am going to try to incorporate tanks the next time I play. | ||
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Victim
United States188 Posts
On November 07 2010 21:51 Antisocialmunky wrote: I know lots of people probably wouldn't want to post reps of them losing with a strategy but can more people post their losses with MR. I mean preferably losses where Zerg manages to fight you off - not because you have bad macro. I don't have replays on this computer, but the zerg strategy that seems to repeatedly trouble me (as opposed to me just screwing up) is when the zerg fast expands into zergling/baneling pressure against the natural (on most most maps). My units have to stay home and defend, so marine pushes are delayed. Even narrowing the choke with a bunker and production building hasn't seemed to keep a determined zerg from sometimes being able to penetrate to the natural SCVs. Consistent defense against this kind of aggression seemed to require siege tanks. The damage from having to rebuild the front line buildings, stuff breaking into the worker line, and gas going towards siege tanks and their tech instead of upgrades and raven stuff means that momentum isn't in my favor. The Zerg has had map control since they've been attacking me, instead of the reverse, so they've been able to expand more easily, the creep has been able to spread a large distance, etc. Not to mention it puts me in a defensive mindset. This strategy involves a lot of army trading with the marine attacks. It's one thing to accept losing your attack force when by the time it dies, many rax will have generated a replacement force. However, if zerg is waiting right outside your doorstep with their army then there's an immediate counter when your army dies. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-164252.jpg) I think KME ran into some of the same problems (2 Base Push By Zerg) so he modified the 2 Rax FE to get a fast factory and just a tiny amount of tanks. I just bunker up like mad. Yeah, getting your wall broken down is bad, but he's spending way more banelings to do it than its worth and like I said, a Tank transition is a good idea if you see Zerg sitting on two base doing anything but mass muta. Since most zergs aren't going to take their third and regard it as free anymore, stopping for tanks or medivacs a good idea since Ravens require a snowball. I'm going to start categorizing new reps that are sent to me by strategy and I have a fair amount to watch :D | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
IMO this strategy lives and dies on your marine splitting micro and never ending waves of attack so the zerg can't drone up or catch his breath. I think that a much better evolution of this strategy is to dump that gas into early banshees. Banshees fit into the overall strategy MUCH better. Lets look at the pros and cons: Tank pro: one shots banelings splash con: -slow and immobile - if you don't see the banelings coming you may not be in seige mode, hence removing the entire point of the tanks - cant retreat from most zerg units -fragile -needs extra upgrade -alot of friendly fire issues with speedlings - to properly employ SLOWS YOU DOWN RUINING YOUR GAMEPLAN, if you don't slow down, your tanks will be useless as you'll get hit without seige mode Banshee pro: harassment - queen sniping especially can give you a HUGE advantage in a strategy that is largely about forcing larva usage - hence an easy win - DO THIS IMMEDIATELY WHEN YOU GET 2, definitely move to the expansion to get the other queen even over killing drones -> debatable whether this is worth it if they have mutas, probably not, but I could see a game where it was really close that killing the queen might be the turning point where I would suicide a couple banshees - that said good zergs often wont get mutas vs mass marines until you suprise them with the banshees survivability - can kill zerg ground with much lower possibility of death - easy to retreat and repair forces mutas or hydras and early overseers - all of which are units you want the zerg to make, much less efficient for killing your marines - don't bother with cloak they will need to make overseer anyway and once you have a few banshees (2-4) you will be switching to ravens anyway - group banshees with ravens for extra survivability other fits perfectly into your tech/overall gameplan - no extra upgrades/no slowing down can easily be grouped into your raven control group later on zerg will be scared to try to push your base until he has an answer for the banshees all this can be accomplished by adding only 2 banshess versatile - can scout/harass, bring into your marine army for extra firepower/baneling sniping con: not nearly as effective as tanks at killing banelings -> however that said, you have to keep in mind that tanks may not be that effective in a fast run and gun game either AND over a long game, your banshess live to fight again so they may end up killing as many banelings over time. | ||
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