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After watching this replay I think there is something very flawed with it. One is that for a 10 minute replay that Nexus came down much earlier than the Terran one and it had a huge effect. Much bigger than anything else comparable.
Second. There is a misconception of losing mining time building when this does not apply at full saturation. An SCV pulled off to build something in a saturated base does not lose much if any mining time. Also when I took a look at the income tab despite having a 15 worker lead income was very similar.
Anyway personally I think the MULE itself is fine as a unit. The lack of CD however is a problem. Especially when used on gold minerals. Where all MULE are focused on them. It becomes a temporary triple gold base. Afterwards MULE are all focused there and it gets above and beyond super saturation. Not to mention that their gold bases are the hardest to kill of any race.
Also I am not sure why you used a worker supply count for this.
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i wish people wouldn't keep making threads about crappy comparisons of complete different spells.
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On October 07 2010 18:27 AzureD wrote:
After watching this replay I think there is something very flawed with it. One is that for a 10 minute replay that Nexus came down much earlier than the Terran one and it had a huge effect. Much bigger than anything else comparable..
First thing I noticed. This alone counts for almost all of the discrepancy. It counts directly for 4.5 workers (~7 with cronoboost), more mining efficiency, a MULE (270 minerals) etc.
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I thought the results of this test was wildly inconsistent with what my experiences are playing as Terran and Protoss, so I decided to do my own, more controlled experiment.
Rules:
Map used - Novice Metapolis. Very easy computer AI opponents (since a - no human partner was available, and b - more consistent to use the same person to test)
1 base. No expansions.
Minerals only, no gas to add extra variables.
All energy to be used on macro only (duh).
Recording time need only continue until Protoss has 24 probes on minerals. Anything after that is unnecessary as P would just uselessly oversaturate.
Results:
I decided the cutoff time was 4:30, as the 24th probe finished just a tad bit earlier at around 4:22 and 4:30 was a nice even number.
Protoss @ 4:30 - 25/26 (1 probe in production), 2 pylons 1 gateway warped in, 1190 minerals in bank.
Terran @ 4:30 - 20/27 (1 scv in production), 2 depots 1 barracks built, 1220 minerals in bank.
As you can see, the two races are almost dead even at this time.
Possible divergences - if an expansion was up and running at this time (16 nexus?), then the protoss would pull ahead due to faster probe production and easier saturation, as it takes a finite amount of time for CB to catch up to the static income advantage an OC brings.
On the other hand, if there is no available expansion, Terran is in the better position as the mineral patch could support an additional 5 scvs before saturation.
I shall leave it up to the reader to determine which is the more likely scenario.
A significant flaw in the original test scenario was expansion on a fixed food amount - this significantly favors the protoss due to getting an expansion out over a minute sooner.
My conclusion - For each orbital command created, CB used 5-6 times on the nexus during probe production more or less equals MULE income. On two bases, it's pretty reasonable to say that over the course of a medium length 2-base game, 10-12 chronos are used on the nexii. Any more probe chronoing would put the Protoss ahead - assuming he doesn't oversaturate his minerals. Chrono is somewhat forgiving - you don't have to continuously boost the nexus a split second after the previous one ends, unlike larvae injection, but if you miss out on a few boosts to the nexus at the start, you'll eventually run out of probe production to boost once both bases are saturated, leaving you further behind.
On the other hand, Terran enjoys higher income off the same amount of bases. Up until the point of saturation for Protoss, T & P have the same income, but after P saturates, T still rises a bit due to MULE & scv interaction (or lack thereof) on a single mineral patch, and thusly T has higher economy off of the same number of bases.
My personal opinion puts the advantage slightly in T's favor.
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The MULE vs Chronoboost discussion is a little bloated- this is the whole new aspect of Sc2. MULEs, CB, and Larvae/creeptumor management is the new aspect of starcraft, meant to still allow for the noticeable difference in high level skill that MBS and auto-mine raped.
This is the question meant to plague the Protoss in PvT- do I chronoboost my overpowered tech, or do I try to keep up with the MULE? Every protoss late game strategy (short of MAYBE Carriers) owns the Terran late game, and if the Protoss can keep up with macro while defending the Terran harass, you should not be losing to a Terran. (the observer gives you map hacks, you shouldnt ever be caught off guard for hardcounters).
The only real difference is in the early mind, but I'd like to try something which I will playtest, but I ask others to try as well:
What if as Toss you actually DO only CB probes, but do so still with your 1 base strategy? It's very likely the delay of not chronoboosting your warpgate will bone you (should allow for more tanks), but on the other hand, ther overbloated economy could mean 5 gate instead of 4 gate push, or maybe an extra 2-3 zealots, which with good sentry usage can easily be the difference in the game.
It's not a balance issue, it's a strategy issue. If the Terran doesn't wall or doesn't kite properly, an early CB or two on a 2gate makes this conversation moot.
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4220m/2108g/60 Probes
Terran: 3810m/2084g /46 SCV's
IF Protoss could expand he could saturate more Mineral Patches with extra Probes BUT isnt it a main Problem for Protoss to expand early without being punished?
As a general strategy should the Protoss take more Expansions than the Terran - the main Problem is to defend them.
Another Issue is the question how do the number compare if executing a standart strategy? I normaly spent many chrono on key technologie because i have to.
The next key question is the extra Bonus when there is a base trade - let us say because of that you win 1 game in 100 - it still biases Terra. Then there is the issue of Fighting 1 Base vs 1 Base - when both players come out even - terran floats OC to next Minerals and takes the win. Let us say 1 Game in 100.
The next question is the ability of Terran buildings to fly stacking with the ability of terran to hide their tec stacking with the use of an out of place op to produce mules on the main.
The next issue is the ability to throw down mules on gold expansions AND on Islands - floating OC there. I dont have the issue to transfer many wbfs to a island.
When u hit 200 Suply your army has 20 Food more of fighting supply AND u can make extremly effecitv deff (PF and Turrets).
Then there is the issue of scouting a terran base. After Marine is out - (Way before stalker who denies scouting)
When you build absolutely no Raven or Turrets there are still 2 ways to detect DTs - Scan and EMP. If you forgot to mule AND u are supply blocked - get down an extra supply depot.
IF U truly want to know how the expo game is going on - get standart bo's , play them and count the mins used and mined.
Sorry for QQing but i think the main Problem of T are the many easy to play and Gimmicky things which favor them in many Situations. And if u talk about - it is just map Balance - you can say Islands and Gold are Great for Terrans. Marauder just destroy Rocks and OC can flote to gold - how many mins do mules mine on gold?
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such tests make little sense if they aren't put into context - although it's nice that the OP does try to justify his points by numbers and not by "ffs trust blizz, it's balanced"
the MAIN problem with mules, that has always been under discussion, isn't touched by this test: the stack; if you don't use chrono-boost constantly, you can't just use it multiple times to get a super-income-boost; like when you save it for a gold-expansion: protoss can't just spam 4 chrono-boosts on the gold-nexus and have like 10 probes there within an instant;
or if you force terran to lift the CC, they can defend, land the CC and spam mules to replenish; protoss isn't only unable to lift nexi, once they lose/pull probes they don't get them back fast
I'd say 99% of all discussions/suggestions were about giving mules a cooldown - which wouldn't matter in your test at all
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You should do the same test but change the 25 food=expansion rule to : expansion as soon as you can afford it. (while making constant workers/supply obv, ie no cutting)
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On October 08 2010 00:17 Inori wrote:
You're also forgetting that terran only uses MULE for econ while Protoss is balanced around Chorno Boost on army units (Carrier vs BC build time for ex).
Scans do indeed apear out of thin air, free of cost.
These kind of one-sided arguements in anyones favor really annoy me, what's the point? I trust blizzard in balancing this game, and the "racials" apear to be.
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United States102 Posts
To clarify: Protoss rarely, if ever, gets an expansion at 25 food, especially in PvT. Instead, P stays inbase and techs (or 4gates) until their tech allows them to secure an expo. More importantly, an early expansion benefits Protoss FAR more than Terran, because the Chrono Boosted Probes get more resources from an entirely new mineral line than another MULE and however many SCVs Terran has at the time. If you test for one-base or delayed two-base play, I'm sure you'll have much different results. kcdc's 1 gate FE is pretty popular at I do it almost exclusively PvT at ~800 diamond. Only things I currently have trouble with are banshees and mass marine upgrade timing pushes.
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The big problem with this test is that P will get to the 25 food expansion much earlier than T. Chronoboost means P gets to 25 more quickly while the OC build time means that T gets to 25 more slowly. Having the expansion up earlier creates a snowball effect. It increases mining efficiency and doubles both worker production and availability of the macro mechanic. A 60 second difference between expansions throws all of the numbers off.
Would you mind trying this experiment again where both races expand at a typical FE timing (6 minutes)?
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They're totally different abilities, but its worth noting that mules mine faster. They don't outright grant minerals. Cronoboosts speed up build order.
What you're saying is.. contantly gaining xtra income can eventually be overrun by faster production. Not.. really ground breaking.
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EPT
