EPT[H]ZvT How to deal with Thor/Banshee - Page 2
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Ouga
Finland645 Posts
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On October 03 2010 10:17 sob3k wrote: Well I actually wen into the unit tester and tried to find an effective composition vs 8thor 8banshee...jesus, nothing works efficiently vs them. Muta ling works, but only if you spend almost exactly the same amount on it as your opponent did (23 muta and 46 lings). You should end up with 10+ injured muta. How is that not efficient? That's the definition of efficient. You're making relatively low-tier units against high tier units with expensive production facilities and winning with a significant amount of units left. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
I think this is a really underused tactic for zerg, and might be a big thing of the future. It's essentially zerg's flying heal bus, except it can attack. If they stay with thors, and lets say switch to vikings instead of banshees, I find broodlord-queen can work well, but I'm still unsure the extent of how good it is (since it failed for me when there were repairing SCVs - my queens kept healing but eventually ran out of energy while repair never stopped) | ||
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Ouga
Finland645 Posts
Pretty sad to see that terran starts to find stuff that may give them advantage even in lategame. Zerg should at least have its reign once he gets to ultras imo. | ||
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Roop
United States16 Posts
If you haven't tried it yet, try going hydra + infestor with lings for your spare minerals. infestors are the key to defeating any thor-based composition, and hydras wreck banshees. Also, the lings are really good and mopping up thors. Besides lings, NP, and broodlords are the best units to use against thors. If the banshees start moving or cloak, use FG (FG reveals invisble units). I understand a lot of people have problems keeping NP up, but if you send in the meat first (lings) you should be able to get it off no problems. lings and FG keep the armies back. Getting a healthy number of infestors (~8 in my experience) will help NP on about 4 thors at once. If the thor count is heavy or you see hellions, I would suggest going more roaches and less lings. Roaches really improve with burrow + tunneling claws. | ||
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McFoo
United Kingdom180 Posts
On October 03 2010 14:46 iEchoic wrote: How is that not efficient? That's the definition of efficient. You're making relatively low-tier units against high tier units with expensive production facilities and winning with a significant amount of units left. Are you defining tier as how easy it is to obtain? Because I don't think Banshees are harder to obtain than mutalisks, maybe thors are a bit because you have to build the armory. Terran can get very fast banshees out without hurting their economy whereas to get mutas that fast you need to do a 1hatch muta build. I agree though, it is efficient. If you and your opponent spend the same amount of resources on an army and your army destroys his with units to spare, how can you say that is not efficient? On October 03 2010 19:26 Roop wrote: I'm 1100 diamond for reference. If you haven't tried it yet, try going hydra + infestor with lings for your spare minerals. infestors are the key to defeating any thor-based composition, and hydras wreck banshees. Also, the lings are really good and mopping up thors. Besides lings, NP, and broodlords are the best units to use against thors. If the banshees start moving or cloak, use FG (FG reveals invisble units). I understand a lot of people have problems keeping NP up, but if you send in the meat first (lings) you should be able to get it off no problems. lings and FG keep the armies back. Getting a healthy number of infestors (~8 in my experience) will help NP on about 4 thors at once. If the thor count is heavy or you see hellions, I would suggest going more roaches and less lings. Roaches really improve with burrow + tunneling claws. You have to have very good control and some luck to pull this off. First you pray that your opponent will just 1a into you and not use his banshees to snipe your infestors. Second you have to make sure that your infestors are in the back/out of range of the enemy units. Third you need to have enough energy to constantly keep his army stun-locked (hopefully it's in a ball and not spread out) and at the same time using NP, otherwise his army will be able to kill the infestors. Seems doable if you have a lot of infestors and great control though. I'd like to see some replays of this working. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9384 Posts
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Gannon_34
United States15 Posts
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MforWW
United States157 Posts
On October 03 2010 20:40 McFoo wrote: Are you defining tier as how easy it is to obtain? Because I don't think Banshees are harder to obtain than mutalisks, maybe thors are a bit because you have to build the armory. Terran can get very fast banshees out without hurting their economy whereas to get mutas that fast you need to do a 1hatch muta build. I agree though, it is efficient. If you and your opponent spend the same amount of resources on an army and your army destroys his with units to spare, how can you say that is not efficient? You have to have very good control and some luck to pull this off. First you pray that your opponent will just 1a into you and not use his banshees to snipe your infestors. Second you have to make sure that your infestors are in the back/out of range of the enemy units. Third you need to have enough energy to constantly keep his army stun-locked (hopefully it's in a ball and not spread out) and at the same time using NP, otherwise his army will be able to kill the infestors. Seems doable if you have a lot of infestors and great control though. I'd like to see some replays of this working. I second the replay notion. As I noted in my earlier post, most people that advocate NP either 1) don't play zerg 2) aren't in diamond or 3) claim to be a diamond zerg player and then somehow they fail to have replays of what they're advocating (*cough* b/c they're lying *cough*) | ||
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aztrorisk
United States896 Posts
Do not engage the thors if there are a couple marines with them. Try to take them out with banelings (burrow comes hand if you lure them into ur trap) then use the magic box. The only reason you don't appreciate the magic box is: a) there are marines around or turrets around b) There are more thors than you can handle (aprox 4 muta per thor should do against thor) c) your not using the magic box correctly | ||
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hadoken5
Canada519 Posts
On October 03 2010 08:14 ChickenLips wrote: Neural Parasite since you can just make half their army yours For 12 seconds you can feel like you're winning, then think "WTF! That was 12 seconds? I didn't have enough time to kill his Thors and now I have to let go of 5 more thors TERRAN OP!" Yes you will think that I guarantee you that. | ||
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FuzzyLord
253 Posts
On October 03 2010 11:10 Almin wrote: Dealing with banshees and thors is extremely easy, mass roaches/speedlings, with 4-5 queens and hydras or corrupters or even mutalisks IF you can micro them well.. I say 4-5 queens if you plan on fast expanding and he tries banshee rushing early. Don't allow him to expand at all, and try to dwindle his army count down as much as you can. Extremely easy? Im pretty sure the entire reason for this post is because it ISN'T easy. Quite frankly, if defeating banshees/thors was that easy, someone woulda found it out already. not to mention the idea of not allowing him to expand and dwindling their army count is already extremely obvious. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
Obviously there's a whole bunch of micro issues on the Terran side that I can't account for on my own, which is why I was hoping someone had tried this out "for real". But I do think Infested Terrans are a really strong unit/ability and take advantage of the low speed of the Thors. I guess you could use roaches instead of lings as the meatshield if you were worried about hellions, too. | ||
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ninjamyst
United States1903 Posts
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
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tackklee
United States270 Posts
Bio/thor/banshee is always a really hard composition to deal with. My only suggestion is to get the initial mutas for some sort of map control and switching your tech to roach/hydra/infestor. Again it's only a suggestion. I know how hard it is to prepare the correct unit composition against this. A lot of people theorycraft counter comps but in reality things don't work out that way. | ||
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Calidus
150 Posts
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TheFinalWord
Australia790 Posts
On October 03 2010 10:17 sob3k wrote: Well I actually wen into the unit tester and tried to find an effective composition vs 8thor 8banshee...jesus, nothing works efficiently vs them. Muta ling works, but only if you spend almost exactly the same amount on it as your opponent did (23 muta and 46 lings). You should end up with 10+ injured muta. I would be extremely happen if I destroyed his death push and ended up with a bunch of mutas left over. Every game I've seen where the zerg survives the mid game push without losing economy they will dominate the rest of the game. How do you expect the terran to take his third with an army and eco disadvantage. | ||
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SirMilford
Australia1269 Posts
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