|
Recently I've been struggling against Terran. Didn't have any problem till I get to about 1400 and get to play against real Terran that really know what they doing. Never found ZvT imba but now everytime I play against a Terran I always get pisses. Maybe I'm not playing against people of my level, meaning I'm less than 1400, and playing against stronger player than me. Maybe I'm just playing it wrong.
ZvT is all about stopping early pressure, getting to mid game and then late game and have a chance to win. Early game you've to deal with double reactor hellion and then as soon as it's finish it's time to deal with banshees. Successful? Good job we are to mid game and we can start to put pressure with muta/nydus/bane drop, trying to buy us time to get to T3 before Terran pushes. Ok we all know that, let's analyze a replay of mine.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/7ofpafa9fu9txpc/Metalopolis (7).SC2Replay
Few things I've notice myself. Late lair. Did I macro too much while not getting enough units? The way I deal with banshees, is it too much? Lately I've been dropping crawler to deal better with it. (A game I scouted double starport with techlab, so I went 3 crawler at each of my 2 bases with 2 queen each base, terran sees that, runs and come back with just more banshees, rapes my queen and my hatch because he's a terran and he can just mass banshees even if they are countered). Ok let's get to the first push. Marine, Thor and Banshees. Expected more marine so I had too much banelings, Saw that many banshees tried to get hydra, since I didn't know how to deal with this many and Thor will just rapes my mutas. Also on that first push I just sacrificed all my muta, should I wait till all the thors are dead and clean up the banshees? I also throw down an Infestation Pit, thinking about NP, but thought my Infestor would just die way too fast. Anyway, lots of error from my part, think I could have survive first push if after I cleaned banshee i'd just get mutas instead of hydras. But then second push, 8 thors, 8 banshees, what's the best unit composition against that? Just feeling It's so hard being a Z while T have it easy.
tl;dr: How to deal with Thor/Banshee?
Edit : Fixed link
|
Neural Parasite since you can just make half their army yours and lotsa lotsa speedlings with queens for their godly AA and transfusions are what comes to mind.
|
Looks like someone has been watching day9!
Havn't watched rep, but bling/muta is über. Banshees do jack-shit vs mutaling.
Does he rush banshee? you should be able to hold it of with 3 queen + overseer. While he's building up his army get 3-4 bases and mass macro.
The strength of muta/ling is that your ling/bling can be assembled in very short time while your muta can pressure. Thor/marine/banshee has no power(such as tank aoe) to kill your massive blings count from killing his rines.
And up untill you meet good T's, they just ball up all their army; because, T army works best in a ball since they are ranged right? perfect sense, except blings rapes balls -- ANY ball. The coutner to a tight mech ball is just blings, lings muta.
If he spread thors he's vulnerable to splings.
He pretty much needs either hellions to roast ur lings, or tanks to kill your blings. Without either, mutaling will crush him so hard.
Infestor play is great but only if he has alot of rines and you can actually afford them; spend gas on blings/muta instead if you can.
|
On October 03 2010 08:14 ChickenLips wrote:
Neural Parasite since you can just make half their army yours for 12 seconds..
|
The replay you gave is of a PvZ on Blistering  but you need Mutas to deal with Banshee harass and to harass the Terran (unless he leaves a Thor/butt-ton of turrets at his mineral line), Spore crawlers/queens are just to give you time to get the mutas up. If he keeps his Banshees with the Thors, just send your bling/slings (make sure you have a good balance of both) and kill the marines and thors, then send the mutas in to wipe up the Banshees.
Ofc, those are just general statements; we would need to see a replay to make solid ones.
|
On October 03 2010 08:16 hadoken5 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2010 08:14 ChickenLips wrote:
Neural Parasite since you can just make half their army yours for 12 seconds..
you know how much damage 4 thors deal in 12 seconds?
A lot. Especially if his army relies on them for DPS and banshees die to thors in 3 hits.
|
Ok so look like I just need some Infestor I guess. Thought about it but thought they'd just die so fast to that. I also thought Zergling would die so fast to that so went roach instead.
I fixed the link.
|
It seems like you mainly lost this game due to micro rather than decision making
1. Your zerglings couldn't see the expansion go down
2. You had around 12-14 roaches idle in your main during the big first push which would have wrecked the ground army of the Terran
3. You sacced the mutas which would have a super easy time raping the banshees after the ground was dead.
As for the macro, you got your lair a little late because you didn't get guys back on gas until late (I usually get them in there after my expo goes down), got lots of Queens+Seer as well as Spores (you only really need one or the other to deal with banshee harass), you got roaches as well as spines and lots of queens, you only really need one of those three to deal with the hellions, and you got hydras when you had a spire already (theres not much of a point, Thors will omgroflpwn either hydras or mutas and you spend extra moneys on hydra tech)
|
Few times that i ran into thor banshies i just won with pure muta. Resoning behind it is:
1) you should be 1 base ahead so 50%-100% more gas then T.
2) he spends chunk of gas on banshies
3) in even gas mutas do loose to thors but given 1 and 2 you should have about double the gas in muta then he does + lings
|
lmao @ all the people suggesting neural parasite. you realize that if he has banshees the infestor will just get sniped instantly, right? And that even if you did control the thors for the full 12 seconds he could just cloak his banshees, right? Or fly them away for that matter.
Looks like some people didn't get the memo that NP has been nerfed into uselessness.
/can't wait for all the theorycraft responses. sorry, but if you suggest NP for anything you obviously 1) don't play in diamond or 2) don't play as zerg 3) will lie about both 1 and 2 so of course when i ask for replays of NP working well you won't have any
|
On October 03 2010 08:22 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2010 08:16 hadoken5 wrote:On October 03 2010 08:14 ChickenLips wrote:
Neural Parasite since you can just make half their army yours for 12 seconds.. you know how much damage 4 thors deal in 12 seconds? A lot. Especially if his army relies on them for DPS and banshees die to thors in 3 hits.
sugesting a zerg to use NP as a counter to anything. is just ignorant.
it isnt viable. its a gimmick, and relies on your opponent being half brain dead.
and if your opponent isnt good enough to be able to know what to do against NP, you would have won the game anyway without it regardless.
|
lol glad tyrant and i covered that issue. by the way (to do a little threadjacking) i'm actually pretty pissed NP is completely useless now.
|
NP will be completely useless, it is a channeled ability that relies on you being able to protect and hide your infestors behind the front lines for its duration. With the opponent going banshee you will be unable to cover them and they opponent will simple move the banshee up and snipe them instantly.
I would suggest simple going muta ling (few banelings required), The thor and banshee are quite ineffective vs lings due to their overkilling missiles/guns, and shees cant shoot the muta obviously. Since both banshee and thor are gas heavy they shouldnt have enough thors to be able to handle a nice group of magic box muta and a swarm of lings. Once the thors are down then you simply clean up the banshee withe the muta.
EDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDIT
Well I actually wen into the unit tester and tried to find an effective composition vs 8thor 8banshee...jesus, nothing works efficiently vs them.
Muta ling works, but only if you spend almost exactly the same amount on it as your opponent did (23 muta and 46 lings). You should end up with 10+ injured muta.
Hydra roach doesn't work.
Pure muta doesn't work.
Ultra/anything doesn't work.
The only composition I found to be slightly efficient vs this was Corruptor/Broodlord, and you have to corrupt all the Thors. Thats crazy, even this comp is only barely efficient vs them.
After this testing I still advocate muta/ling, but you just have to have just as much stuff as them. Mix broodlords as soon as you can.
|
What I thought about NP, got my infestation pit but thought I'd be unable to actually Np something because of the banshees. Thinking about it, because of how all my last games went against Terran, I over react to everything they do. That and playing on tilt doesn't help. Thanks for all the input.
|
Just played a terran who went bio + thor + banshee + ravan and I killed the ground but was left with the banshees which kinda raped my face and won the terran the game.
Only just started to be able to get my head round fighting the terran ground army with bling, ling which survive longer v tanks now but the problem is heavy marauder don't die to the lings easily enough unless I really really over power with an unfathomable number of blings but even when that happens I feel I just killed his army but fell behind as I lost more resources then he did by far.
But i'm just scared of what Ravens+Banshees are gonna do out in the open ground which is where I want to fight. I'm guessing I have to get corrupters and then can tech to BL's but they seem to die quite easily to a few vikings np's.
|
Felt like when the push came out you had too many resources spent in tech and not enough resources spent in units.
Your lair timing seemed fine. Your third could have been a bit earlier imo (you scout terrans expo going up at ~9:00, perhaps this is a good time to get your third?)
I think what went wrong is that you were trying to find every "perfect counter" to every unit he was making and all at once. You get zergling speed and then when you see a reactor get a roach warren to fight off hellions (and later get roach speed). You get a banelings nest (+speed) because you know he is going to have marines, you get an evolution chamber to deal with the banshees you scout (and eventually +1 carapace), get a spire [because mutalisks are awesome] and then at some point you decide you might want hydras as well (perhaps you felt you didn't have enough anti-air?) and to top it off you get an infestation pit while running off of only 2 gas.
Imagine if instead of all of this tech you had just made a lot of lings and a lot of mutas. How do you think it would have gone then? What sounds stronger vs 6 Thors, 16 marines and 6 banshees: 18 mutalisks and 60 zerglings or 8 mutalisks, 11 roaches, 11 banelings and a hydralisk? I think you should stick to a solid unit composition, you don't have to use every "counter" in the book to win. A bit of everything is worse than a strong amount of 2-3 types of units. Terran isn't forcing you to make all that tech, I think you are over-reacting.
Also,lol @ the IdrA-esque comments at the end.
|
Dealing with banshees and thors is extremely easy, mass roaches/speedlings, with 4-5 queens and hydras or corrupters or even mutalisks IF you can micro them well.. I say 4-5 queens if you plan on fast expanding and he tries banshee rushing early. Don't allow him to expand at all, and try to dwindle his army count down as much as you can.
|
I have not tried it against straight thor banshee but against thor banshee hellion roach ling baneling corrupter worked pretty well. Corrupt the thors and they die really quickly. My force was mainly roach with a handful of lings and banelings and ~6 corrupters.
|
How to play zerg:
1) Dont get countered
2) Have more stuff
|
RexFTW: sad but true, I'm at my wits end, about ready to give up on the swarm.
The only advice I can give is more scouting to know when he's massing so you can have enough stuff to handle him.
If you think you need to scout, then its probably too late.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
