The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 58

On July 19 2011 16:32 AustinCM wrote:
Ugh, Mr.Bitter, are you sure that I can make 15 hatch my standard ZvZ? It just seems so risky D: i look at speedling expand that has the potential to come out atleast even with EVERY Zerg build including against 15 hatch, maybe I'm wrong.

What are your thoughts on 15 hatch vs 14/14 21?

On July 19 2011 16:39 MrBitter wrote:


I think its safe.

I think at the top top level you'll see hatch first 65% of the time, and other stuff about 35% of the time.

On July 19 2011 16:56 Tachion wrote:

Do you think a hatch first vs 9 pool is an auto-loss? Is there some trick to holding it off, cause I suck at it
I feel like I just lose games automatically sometimes with hatch first, but I also hate the feeling of playing behind with a 14/14 vs hatch first. bleh.


in ZvP I like to open +1 roach into baneling drops as I've seen Losira and Nestea do a few times. Once you take your third bases gases though, you end up with an enormous excess of gas which can be used to transition into mutalisks. Is there a transition past mutalisks, or do I just stick on muta/ling for the rest of the game?

On July 19 2011 20:17 dementrio wrote:
15 hatch has the problem that (on most maps) you need to go straight into roaches to be safe vs banelings, your speed will be very late and therefore your opponent has a huge information advantage in the early game (if he went speed first). He can always come out at least even in economy while it's much easier for you to make mistakes (too many or too few roaches).

On July 19 2011 20:45 memcpy wrote:


This. The advantage of going hatch first is that if you do everything perfectly you can come out a little bit ahead of a 14gas/pool build and straight-up win if they stay on one base. However, it takes a lot of practice and is really only effective on maps where your roaches can easily hold the ramp and defend the natural at the same time.

Unless you are at least mid-masters I'd suggest just speedling expanding instead since as dementrio mentioned, you get more information and can come out even pretty easily while being at less of a risk to early pool builds.

Oh, and the advantage is that with the hatch first and queen/warren when pool finishes you do get slightly more larva than a speedling expand build.

On July 19 2011 20:17 dementrio wrote:
15 hatch has the problem that (on most maps) you need to go straight into roaches to be safe vs banelings, your speed will be very late and therefore your opponent has a huge information advantage in the early game (if he went speed first). He can always come out at least even in economy while it's much easier for you to make mistakes (too many or too few roaches).

On July 19 2011 22:07 MrBitter wrote:

Hatch first speedling should be a build order win against speedling expand. You'll have far more production, and easy access to banelings.

On July 14 2011 03:54 GiftPflanZe wrote:
I would like to have some input how to react vs forge fe.Usually the protoss can go nexus first and im already behind,and if I drone to much and take early third to keep up,their warp gate timings kill me.

When do I take the third?

How about lair timing?

How many drones till I stop to pump out units?

On July 20 2011 01:11 XXhkXX wrote:
So recently in most of my PvZ matches, I've been seeing a relatively new timing push popping up where the protoss rushes blink for his stalkers and pushes out. It's like a 4 gate blink stalker push. For me the timing seems to hit just a bit after the typical 4 gate mark (after 6 minutes or so) and the build tends to be particularly devastating to me. I typically try to sac an overlord to gain some scouting intel, however the toss player shuts it down pretty quickly with stalkers. After seeing these stalkers I typically tend to think that a four gate is coming, so I end up making speedlings and spines at my natural. However when he gets there blink is ready and with micro he is able to demolish my speedlings with minimal losses. I have found that some times, if he pushes out relatively early, I can pick off the initial force with speedlings and take out his proxy to save me from the timing or force him back, but most of the time I'm caught off gaurd, as if he places his archives well, it can be difficult to spot if he shuts down my overlord scouting with stalkers. And the timing seems to come slightly before most reasonable infestor timings :/
Anyways how do you handle such a push?

On July 20 2011 02:52 AustinCM wrote:
so what is the best roachling timing against a 3g fe and a 1g fe? i have been doing a 14 pool 16 hatch 16 gas build where i drone to 21 get my warren at 5:10 and try to hit with 7-8 roaches at 7:15 with sling reinforcements. It's 4 supply for the queens, 21 for the drones 16 for the roaches and i make overlords to give me 52 supply and make 11 sets of ling reinforcements and behind the attack i make 2 ovys and then drone.

thoughts?

On July 20 2011 03:01 TheGreenMachine wrote:

Ive been told 24 drones, 3 on gas is the optimal # of drones for this attack that isnt all-in. Id say fewer drones is fine if your macro is not the best (diamond or lower).

Remember that you are doing a timing attack so you dont want roaches too early. If you want 8 roaches for your attack, start the roach warren when you have 100 gas (and 3 mining gas). You will have exactly 200 gas when the warren finishes. Make sure you have the supply, larva, and minerals to afford instant 8 roaches as well.

Maybe 2 injects of lings would be a good # of lings to send. I think 11 sets of lings seems kind of hard number to remember in the heat of the moment.

Ive heard one of the best transitions is a fast 3rd base you throw down as you attack.

On July 20 2011 03:02 Sheth wrote:



Try holding one more base then the protoss if possible. If he is going 1 base phoenix you'll want two bases full saturated until you get hydras and take your 3rd. If he has 2 bases already, try and hold your 3rd and just defend with hydras while macro'ing. If you see him switch into collosus you can either go into hydra / roach, or roach / infestor or ling / infestor / hydra. All of those aren't too bad against a pheonix / collosus build. He should never really be able to attack you until your maxed. Just defend and take bases and make many drones. 1 spore per base is usually enough.

On July 20 2011 06:09 SCvanTango wrote:



btw have u (or anyone else with a decent level of play) ever tried just getting extra queens instead of accepting the hydra-force by the protoss player?

Lately I've been seeing an increase in airplay by toss, so what I usually did, was extra queens and getting hive tech up quickly for ultras. And having a standing army of ling/blings in the meantime to harass or sometimes shut down thirds bases of the protosse, while being a base ahead.

The basic idea being that by dealying the robo they have a later obs, so with extra queens u still maintain vision of a large portion of the map with creep while your overlords are being shut down by air. and phoenix/VR really dont do much vs a large number of small units and surprisingly even VRs take a very long time to kill upgraded ultras. SO they basically have some not-that-useful but gas-heavy units and delay their robo tech, while u still can move freely on the map in terms of assaulting their thirds and other expos.

Unfortunately I'm only high-plat, so I'm wondering whether this is just something that sorta only still works in those lower leagues and not anymore once pple are better.

So did anyone ever try something like that and had success with it by chance?