EPTSupposedly it's barely less economic than 15hatch, and obviously safer because of the fast pool.
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 59
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Flavalanche
United States164 Posts
Supposedly it's barely less economic than 15hatch, and obviously safer because of the fast pool. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On July 20 2011 15:00 Flavalanche wrote: MrBitter, what do you think of destiny's extractor trick 11pool 17hatch build? Supposedly it's barely less economic than 15hatch, and obviously safer because of the fast pool. Personally I haven't tested it much. I've talked to Destiny about it a lot, though. It's a solid, safe opener. I'll be bringing him onto 12 Weeks in early August, and I promise we'll discuss it in detail then. | ||
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BossPlaya
United States141 Posts
My question is: how many spines/spores is acceptable, and around how many should I start to notice that I have too many? | ||
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HelloSon
United States456 Posts
Should I take a quick third and get some lings out to break the rocks or should I stay on two base and saturate that asap? | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On July 21 2011 01:46 HelloSon wrote: In most maps in ZvP, if the P goes for a relatively quick FE (1g, 1c then nexus), I will generally go for a quick third. On some maps like Xel Caverns, I'm having a rough time what to do. Should I take a quick third and get some lings out to break the rocks or should I stay on two base and saturate that asap? You will fall behind if you stay on 2 base against a FE. If you're going to do something off of 2 bases, make sure its aggressive. You will not be able to keep up with the economy of a Protoss player who is chrono boosting correctly off of two bases. | ||
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sick_transit
United States195 Posts
Is it okay to keep doing this as I ascend leagues or is this a bad habit that I should get rid of? The pros to it are I never forget to add units to my army and if I retreat or call off a battle I never have to hunt down the reinforcements to pull them back from a forward rally position. The downside is that I have had reinforcing units caught in awkward spots before, especially if my army retreats other than back along the path of reinforcement. I also used to have a problem where I would hotkey in unused larva and then have a bunch of overlords following around my main army, but I have figured out how to avoid that now and practically never do it. Any thoughts about this would be most welcome. | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On July 20 2011 23:07 BossPlaya wrote: As a bronze zerg, I find that I need to keep myself alive in the opening minutes by building spines at my nat. Bronze opponents tend to neglect proper engagement, allowing me to build minimal lings and roaches while droning hard at the same time. I typically go for 3 spines at my nat but this makes me feel weak to drops at my main. My question is: how many spines/spores is acceptable, and around how many should I start to notice that I have too many? There are certain situations where Spines/Spores are useful. Sometimes you will need a Spine to hold off 2 Rax aggression, and if you are going Ling heavy 2-3 Spines are very useful against a 4 Gate. Spores are great against mass Phoenix and as detection. They should always be built in response to something you scout, however. I would get out of the habit of building static defense "just to feel safe." Improve your scouting so that you know when aggression is coming and can build units to defend, not spines. You're right in that good opponents will circumvent your static defense or simply take map control, knowing that your 300 minerals + 3 Drones tied up in Spine Crawlers can't take it back. Spines are also great in the late-game when you're floating a lot of minerals. But that tactic isn't particularly necessary in the lower leagues and takes a lot of APM to make a ton of Drones, make a ton of Spines, while keeping up with army movements and engagements. NesTea has been doing it a lot lately. | ||
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IanMalcolm
United States11 Posts
On July 21 2011 04:38 sick_transit wrote: So way back when I started playing Zerg I got in the habit of hotkeying my units in the womb as it were (i.e. while spawning). So for instance I will select hatchery, type szzzzzzz then Shift+1 to put them all in my main army. During a battle I will 1a alot just to make sure that reinforcements move up as spawned. Is it okay to keep doing this as I ascend leagues or is this a bad habit that I should get rid of? The pros to it are I never forget to add units to my army and if I retreat or call off a battle I never have to hunt down the reinforcements to pull them back from a forward rally position. The downside is that I have had reinforcing units caught in awkward spots before, especially if my army retreats other than back along the path of reinforcement. I also used to have a problem where I would hotkey in unused larva and then have a bunch of overlords following around my main army, but I have figured out how to avoid that now and practically never do it. Any thoughts about this would be most welcome. As a 1500 master zerg I still do this constantly. I control click the eggs and then shift-add them to the appropriate control group, even during battles and all that. You did nail the downside though, and rather than change the habit completely, I've found that I can get away with selectively not control grouping new units. For example, in the middle of a complicated muta harass when the line from my hatcheries to my mutas goes through a lot of dangerous space (and I'm not sure when my mutas will get to safety) I won't add my new mutas to the control group. I just have to remember to grab them from my rally spot later. There are other small situations where I find it helpful not to add the new units before they hatch. If my bases are split by a gigantic army or something, it's critical that I don't rally through it, so what I'll do then is set individual rallies for the hatches on either side and not add the units to the control group. You can also set the rallies and continue adding new units to the group, but you just have to be careful not to right click the control group anywhere before you're ready to engage. Then, when you engage, it's instant easy 1a flanking! I suppose what I'm saying is, it's not a bad habit to have, but it's critical that you make yourself very aware of it so you can sniff out the times when it's unwise. Then just snap back to your rally (set it to F5 location or something) and grab the units really quick. Hope this helps. | ||
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MeLlamoSatan
United States136 Posts
As Zerg I am having a reoccurring problem on ladder: Either when I am taking, or after my third base has gone down against Terran, I have a huge problem with Thors. What happens is the terran skips tanks completely in favor of thors -- usually 3 facts w/ tech labs and one with a reactor OR 2rax pumping rines. Usually I meet a push consisting of marines, hellions, and 4-6 thors with +1 armor -- maybe 1/1. My mutas get murdered by thors, so I'm left with engaging the army with my ground and magic boxing the mutas (any advice for this? I have a general idea of how it works and I do use it). I usually kill everything but the thors, who are balled up so my lings don't do great. Blings do okay, perhaps that is the answer. I have tech switched after scouting the thors in advance to roaches and eventually fell to the push with 2/2 slings and 2/2 speed roaches (he was 1/2 factory up grades and 1/1 barracks). I thought lings/roach would work well, because the balling of the thors won't affect roaches and the lings still do great with a lot of the ground force. Although blue flames as a mineral sink for this build makes lings seem weak also. Any advice for handling balled thors as zerg in the middle game? I understand I should work on my Z macro, but I literally had more points and lost miserably to a T with worse macro/micro/apm than me. Other times I am outplayed and the thors still wreck me, of course. Should I abandon Spire tech if I see him skip tanks and he's pumping thors? | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On July 21 2011 05:17 MeLlamoSatan wrote: I play Random and I have a gold level Zerg, just to preface. My macro is probably good for gold zerg (my injects are decent), my micro is probably average. My best is Terran for sure. As Zerg I am having a reoccurring problem on ladder: Either when I am taking, or after my third base has gone down against Terran, I have a huge problem with Thors. What happens is the terran skips tanks completely in favor of thors -- usually 3 facts w/ tech labs and one with a reactor OR 2rax pumping rines. Usually I meet a push consisting of marines, hellions, and 4-6 thors with +1 armor -- maybe 1/1. My mutas get murdered by thors, so I'm left with engaging the army with my ground and magic boxing the mutas (any advice for this? I have a general idea of how it works and I do use it). I usually kill everything but the thors, who are balled up so my lings don't do great. Blings do okay, perhaps that is the answer. I have tech switched after scouting the thors in advance to roaches and eventually fell to the push with 2/2 slings and 2/2 speed roaches (he was 1/2 factory up grades and 1/1 barracks). I thought lings/roach would work well, because the balling of the thors won't affect roaches and the lings still do great with a lot of the ground force. Although blue flames as a mineral sink for this build makes lings seem weak also. Any advice for handling balled thors as zerg in the middle game? I understand I should work on my Z macro, but I literally had more points and lost miserably to a T with worse macro/micro/apm than me. Other times I am outplayed and the thors still wreck me, of course. Should I abandon Spire tech if I see him skip tanks and he's pumping thors? to me this sounds like the problems lie elsewhere, because a push with 6 thors instead of like 10 tanks or so really isnt all too strong, no matter what you do (unless you play super muta heavy i guess) so yea, just a bit less mutas and more ling/baneling for example or add some roaches (if he has blueflame u need that anyway). its all too come at your level that you think you didnt build the right unit composition etc. and look for your mistake there, when in reality it was probably you failing hardcore miserably in the early game somewhere and from there on it was just hopeless or you were far behind etc. On July 21 2011 04:38 sick_transit wrote: So way back when I started playing Zerg I got in the habit of hotkeying my units in the womb as it were (i.e. while spawning). So for instance I will select hatchery, type szzzzzzz then Shift+1 to put them all in my main army. During a battle I will 1a alot just to make sure that reinforcements move up as spawned. Is it okay to keep doing this as I ascend leagues or is this a bad habit that I should get rid of? The pros to it are I never forget to add units to my army and if I retreat or call off a battle I never have to hunt down the reinforcements to pull them back from a forward rally position. The downside is that I have had reinforcing units caught in awkward spots before, especially if my army retreats other than back along the path of reinforcement. I also used to have a problem where I would hotkey in unused larva and then have a bunch of overlords following around my main army, but I have figured out how to avoid that now and practically never do it. Any thoughts about this would be most welcome. in general this is perfectly fine imo On July 20 2011 15:00 Flavalanche wrote: MrBitter, what do you think of destiny's extractor trick 11pool 17hatch build? Supposedly it's barely less economic than 15hatch, and obviously safer because of the fast pool. i dont think its a very good opening, but if you play on US it probably doesnt matter much because there is probably almost noone who will exploit it properly | ||
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AustinCM
Canada275 Posts
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thane
United States407 Posts
On July 21 2011 06:47 AustinCM wrote: Why do so many people look down on the NA ladder and say stuff like darkforce just said? I doubt what he said is true, people in GM in NA aren't just herp derp marine scv all in or herp derp how do you play this game. I am not GM but it seems as though most non zerg players in NA come into a game with a build and dont scout much they just do that build. | ||
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FindMuck
63 Posts
Unless ur actually supposed to go for the marines, but I've always heard to attack teh scv buildign the bunker also, how many drones would u pull for 1 bunker? for 2? etc | ||
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ksn
Italy34 Posts
So I was wondering, how far do good zergs get with BO with zerg on sc2? I find it hard to go more than 20-25 food with a standard build, since you need to be very reactive in my experience. What do you think? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On July 21 2011 06:47 AustinCM wrote: Why do so many people look down on the NA ladder and say stuff like darkforce just said? I doubt what he said is true, people in GM in NA aren't just herp derp marine scv all in or herp derp how do you play this game. No darkforce is right though. The players on NA (most) even in GM don't know how to abuse certain things they see. A lot of terrans I play don't abuse map features with siege tanks that almost every diamond player + on korea do, and every masters terran I have played on EU does. Also alot of the GM is a bunch of cheesy players or at least alot of the ones I play. You would be surprised at the skill difference between EU GM and NA GM. (I play on all 3 servers, and have played both EU GM's, and I am in NA GM also so I play them alot, I have noticed NA's most are pretty meh). Any tricks on clicking the scv building the bunker when u go hatch first? Unless ur actually supposed to go for the marines, but I've always heard to attack teh scv buildign the bunker also, how many drones would u pull for 1 bunker? for 2? etc Its pretty hard if the scv moves in the right direction to where the bunker blocks it (I wish blizzard would fix that honestly...). But if you can't target the scv, kill the marines is your best bet. If you can go for the marines and leave 1-2 drones killing the scv repairing the bunker do that as that is the best method imo. As for how many drones, it really depends on how many scv's he brings. If he only brings 2-3 scv's then you need 5-6 drones with your lings, if he's pulling half or more of his scv's, you want to bring most but 4-6 of your mining drones to help defend, at least thats what I do. | ||
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AustinCM
Canada275 Posts
On July 21 2011 10:41 blade55555 wrote: No darkforce is right though. The players on NA (most) even in GM don't know how to abuse certain things they see. A lot of terrans I play don't abuse map features with siege tanks that almost every diamond player + on korea do, and every masters terran I have played on EU does. Also alot of the GM is a bunch of cheesy players or at least alot of the ones I play. You would be surprised at the skill difference between EU GM and NA GM. (I play on all 3 servers, and have played both EU GM's, and I am in NA GM also so I play them alot, I have noticed NA's most are pretty meh). Its pretty hard if the scv moves in the right direction to where the bunker blocks it (I wish blizzard would fix that honestly...). But if you can't target the scv, kill the marines is your best bet. If you can go for the marines and leave 1-2 drones killing the scv repairing the bunker do that as that is the best method imo. As for how many drones, it really depends on how many scv's he brings. If he only brings 2-3 scv's then you need 5-6 drones with your lings, if he's pulling half or more of his scv's, you want to bring most but 4-6 of your mining drones to help defend, at least thats what I do. I have watched streams from both, and it is the exact same. Diamond in Korea is Diamond in NA also...from what I have seen / experienced. When I played at my friends house I dominated Plat and some Diamond Koreans and all I am is low Diamond NA. I think all of this is based on the new style of "anti-americanism" Europeans aren't born better at starcraft and neither are Koreans, Diamond here is diamond everywhere. Also I kind of feel like an idiot for disagreeing with 2 very very experienced players...don't ban me D: | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On July 21 2011 10:51 AustinCM wrote: I have watched streams from both, and it is the exact same. Diamond in Korea is Diamond in NA also...from what I have seen / experienced. When I played at my friends house I dominated Plat and some Diamond Koreans and all I am is low Diamond NA. I think all of this is based on the new style of "anti-americanism" Europeans aren't born better at starcraft and neither are Koreans, Diamond here is diamond everywhere. Also I kind of feel like an idiot for disagreeing with 2 very very experienced players...don't ban me D: well idk I play a diamond on NA, its so easy I barely try. I play against a korean Diamond (who I won't know till after the game). I look at the account expecting masters and see diamond with 600 games played yet he easily played like a low-mid masters on NA. Its not about born either, its about how much you play, and koreans, even their diamonds build orders are very refined compared to a lot of masters players on NA/EU. Its why they have a lot more better players is because they have refined builds, they don't just do a 1 base cloaked banshee for example. They have a complete plan whether thats to go to macro or not they have timings and everything they do while players on other servers don't have it as precise. Its more NA players dont' take it as seriously as koreans (just like EU) but EU has a lot more players that take sc2 more seriously then NA players. Nothing to do with genes or anything. | ||
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sick_transit
United States195 Posts
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On July 21 2011 07:50 FindMuck wrote: Any tricks on clicking the scv building the bunker when u go hatch first? Unless ur actually supposed to go for the marines, but I've always heard to attack teh scv buildign the bunker also, how many drones would u pull for 1 bunker? for 2? etc yes there is a small trick you can do, shift-click the scv multiple times. When the scv moves to a different part of the bunker, the drones will often get stuck and lose the attack command. If you queue up a bunch of attack commands though, it will just move on to the next one and follow the scv and attack it. Usually how many drones you pull is based on how many scvs and marines you see coming. If you wait until after the bunkers are started, it's usually too late. If there's 1 scv, 5 drones should hold until your zerglings hatch. If there's 2 or more, he'll be trying to build at least 2 bunkers, so you should pull 6-8 drones. | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
i dont think its a very good opening, but if you play on US it probably doesnt matter much because there is probably almost noone who will exploit it properly I don't disagree with you that US is generally the worst of the three big regions, but how would each race exploit it properly? 2 Stalker pressure? 2 Rax? Speed/Bane? | ||
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