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On October 15 2012 04:41 Azoryen wrote: OK mate, thx for the tips, will try them out and if I have additional trouble will post replays. Just another question: if I manage to get that 2base saturation and see him expand quite late, what would you recommend? Getting a 3rd or building an army with my 2 bases and try to go kill him/deny his expo?
no problem ^^
Always get a third. If you're ahead, get more ahead. Don't try to end the game now; attacking into a Terran before you have hive is a great way to throw away a won game. Take a third, drone up, and optionally try to win with muta/ling/bane at lair tech if you have a significant lead. Muta harass won me every game from silver -> plat, it was pretty funny. Then people learned to scout + build turrets, but yeah. Mutas are great in ZvT, and in a replay a few posts above I use them to great success, and could've even been more active with them. Feigning pressure is okay, but don't commit unless you're 100% certain that you can kill him right then and there.
On October 15 2012 08:36 meatbox wrote: how do you counter archons?
was amazed to see 3 archons killing 3 ultralisks without microing, seemed like a hack haha, ultras were 2/4 archons were 2/2
If you're making ultras to deal with archons, you're doing it wrong. It kind of depends on the scenario, but the most effective way to deal with archons is probably fungal.
I think in this case honestly, Zerg is a bit luckier than other races. There is a good base we have that can defend most of anything. 2-4 additional Queens, speedlings/banes early on, perhaps 1 spine or two. Then get Speed banes and festor tech at t2. I personally feel like scouting is more important than units here, as long as you aren't caught off guard and you have enough banes+lings you shouldn't die to anything. At least until you have infests out.
On October 15 2012 08:36 meatbox wrote: how do you counter archons?
was amazed to see 3 archons killing 3 ultralisks without microing, seemed like a hack haha, ultras were 2/4 archons were 2/2
If you're making ultras to deal with archons, you're doing it wrong. It kind of depends on the scenario, but the most effective way to deal with archons is probably fungal.
Yeah. Archons are countered by: 1) Good macro 2) Broodlords 3) Roaches 4) Infestors
Basically anything other than mutas (which do okay w/ magic box), ultras, lings, and banes.
On October 15 2012 08:36 meatbox wrote: how do you counter archons?
was amazed to see 3 archons killing 3 ultralisks without microing, seemed like a hack haha, ultras were 2/4 archons were 2/2
If you're making ultras to deal with archons, you're doing it wrong. It kind of depends on the scenario, but the most effective way to deal with archons is probably fungal.
Yeah. Archons are countered by: 1) Good macro 2) Broodlords 3) Roaches 4) Infestors
Basically anything other than mutas (which do okay w/ magic box), ultras, lings, and banes.
Having ultras tank the splash, while lings do damage works well at times as well.
On October 15 2012 08:36 meatbox wrote: how do you counter archons?
was amazed to see 3 archons killing 3 ultralisks without microing, seemed like a hack haha, ultras were 2/4 archons were 2/2
If you're making ultras to deal with archons, you're doing it wrong. It kind of depends on the scenario, but the most effective way to deal with archons is probably fungal.
Yeah. Archons are countered by: 1) Good macro 2) Broodlords 3) Roaches 4) Infestors
Basically anything other than mutas (which do okay w/ magic box), ultras, lings, and banes.
Having ultras tank the splash, while lings do damage works well at times as well.
I guess, but by the same logic you could make roach/ling work against ultras.
Archons counter lings, archons counter ultras. Moreso by absorbing fire than actually dealing damage.
I'm sure it could work, but there's much better ways to spend your resources ^^
On October 15 2012 08:36 meatbox wrote: how do you counter archons?
was amazed to see 3 archons killing 3 ultralisks without microing, seemed like a hack haha, ultras were 2/4 archons were 2/2
If you're making ultras to deal with archons, you're doing it wrong. It kind of depends on the scenario, but the most effective way to deal with archons is probably fungal.
Yeah. Archons are countered by: 1) Good macro 2) Broodlords 3) Roaches 4) Infestors
Basically anything other than mutas (which do okay w/ magic box), ultras, lings, and banes.
Having ultras tank the splash, while lings do damage works well at times as well.
I guess, but by the same logic you could make roach/ling work against ultras.
Archons counter lings, archons counter ultras. Moreso by absorbing fire than actually dealing damage.
I'm sure it could work, but there's much better ways to spend your resources ^^
maybe they should remove the liquipedia entry that says archons are weak against ultras!
cheers for the advice, I never really used infestors until recently and they seem OP
On October 15 2012 08:36 meatbox wrote: how do you counter archons?
was amazed to see 3 archons killing 3 ultralisks without microing, seemed like a hack haha, ultras were 2/4 archons were 2/2
If you're making ultras to deal with archons, you're doing it wrong. It kind of depends on the scenario, but the most effective way to deal with archons is probably fungal.
Yeah. Archons are countered by: 1) Good macro 2) Broodlords 3) Roaches 4) Infestors
Basically anything other than mutas (which do okay w/ magic box), ultras, lings, and banes.
Having ultras tank the splash, while lings do damage works well at times as well.
I guess, but by the same logic you could make roach/ling work against ultras.
Archons counter lings, archons counter ultras. Moreso by absorbing fire than actually dealing damage.
I'm sure it could work, but there's much better ways to spend your resources ^^
maybe they should remove the liquipedia entry that says archons are weak against ultras!
cheers for the advice, I never really used infestors until recently and they seem OP
I need to start using infestors. I kind of hate them because they're giant and squishy and basically invite the opposing player to target fire them. Ghosts are tiny. Sentries are tiny. Templar are tiny. Why are zerg casters giant?
On October 15 2012 08:36 meatbox wrote: how do you counter archons?
was amazed to see 3 archons killing 3 ultralisks without microing, seemed like a hack haha, ultras were 2/4 archons were 2/2
If you're making ultras to deal with archons, you're doing it wrong. It kind of depends on the scenario, but the most effective way to deal with archons is probably fungal.
Yeah. Archons are countered by: 1) Good macro 2) Broodlords 3) Roaches 4) Infestors
Basically anything other than mutas (which do okay w/ magic box), ultras, lings, and banes.
Having ultras tank the splash, while lings do damage works well at times as well.
I guess, but by the same logic you could make roach/ling work against ultras.
Archons counter lings, archons counter ultras. Moreso by absorbing fire than actually dealing damage.
I'm sure it could work, but there's much better ways to spend your resources ^^
maybe they should remove the liquipedia entry that says archons are weak against ultras!
cheers for the advice, I never really used infestors until recently and they seem OP
I need to start using infestors. I kind of hate them because they're giant and squishy and basically invite the opposing player to target fire them. Ghosts are tiny. Sentries are tiny. Templar are tiny. Why are zerg casters giant?
Because awesome doesn't fit in a small package. Storm and EMP don't damage AND stop movement.
On October 15 2012 10:15 meatbox wrote: cheers for the advice, I never really used infestors until recently and they seem OP
I need to start using infestors. I kind of hate them because they're giant and squishy and basically invite the opposing player to target fire them. Ghosts are tiny. Sentries are tiny. Templar are tiny. Why are zerg casters giant?
Accurate observation meatbox, they are Falcon, just wait until some fool tries to EMP your imbafestors. Large size is not always purely detrimental in this game.
On October 15 2012 20:16 Azoryen wrote: Is 1raxFE very safe or can I try to punish it? What's the best all-in against it after I go 15hatch/15pool?
It's a pretty safe build as far as I know. They usually bunker up and don't stop scouting until they see your third. I guess it depends what they go into afterwards (bio or hellion/banshee mech)
And my question:
Best way to deal with terran mech? I always expand everywhere while dealing with hellions, but on maps like daybreak it is really easy for the terran just to split the map (and it's really hard to take the closer bases against tanks) and I have trouble once the game gets to that point anyways. I was thinking maybe roach drops while teching to broods?
On October 15 2012 20:16 Azoryen wrote: Is 1raxFE very safe or can I try to punish it? What's the best all-in against it after I go 15hatch/15pool?
Yes to both. It's only safe if they scout what's coming. As a result, even at my level I can punish terrans who don't scout by hitting them with a roach/bane bust. My fav version is as follows: Double queen -> one more queen 26 gas after overlord Drones to 36 3rd hatch @100 gas, speed 44 gas, roach warren, overlord x5 or x6 Pool larvae, make 10 roaches @50 gas, bane nest Mass lings, morph 10-12 banes out of his vision, near his base (roaches I move command to his front door) Here you're ~70 supply, 20 lings 10 banes 10 roaches. If he looks weak you can make 20+ more lings, otherwise drone the third and get evos/lair!
This usually does more than enough damage to safely get lair, double evo, and a third saturated ^^ Make 3 more queens if he's going hellion/banshee, and get spores.
On October 15 2012 20:16 Azoryen wrote: Is 1raxFE very safe or can I try to punish it? What's the best all-in against it after I go 15hatch/15pool?
It's a pretty safe build as far as I know. They usually bunker up and don't stop scouting until they see your third. I guess it depends what they go into afterwards (bio or hellion/banshee mech)
And my question:
Best way to deal with terran mech? I always expand everywhere while dealing with hellions, but on maps like daybreak it is really easy for the terran just to split the map (and it's really hard to take the closer bases against tanks) and I have trouble once the game gets to that point anyways. I was thinking maybe roach drops while teching to broods?
I'm thinking that's the right way to play against mech. I'm considering opening mutas -> roach/infestor, trading aggressively.
Idk about you, but all my games vs mech are him skipping tanks completely and starting Thor/hellion/Viking at the 12:00 mark it's pretty dumb. It flat out wins against fast broodlord play, but would die to any kind of roach max (burrow + drops is the best IMO)
On October 15 2012 20:16 Azoryen wrote: Is 1raxFE very safe or can I try to punish it? What's the best all-in against it after I go 15hatch/15pool?
It's a pretty safe build as far as I know. They usually bunker up and don't stop scouting until they see your third. I guess it depends what they go into afterwards (bio or hellion/banshee mech)
And my question:
Best way to deal with terran mech? I always expand everywhere while dealing with hellions, but on maps like daybreak it is really easy for the terran just to split the map (and it's really hard to take the closer bases against tanks) and I have trouble once the game gets to that point anyways. I was thinking maybe roach drops while teching to broods?
I'm thinking that's the right way to play against mech. I'm considering opening mutas -> roach/infestor, trading aggressively.
Idk about you, but all my games vs mech are him skipping tanks completely and starting Thor/hellion/Viking at the 12:00 mark it's pretty dumb. It flat out wins against fast broodlord play, but would die to any kind of roach max (burrow + drops is the best IMO)
+1 on this, opening mutas into a roach timing (roach/bling works even better) is extremely good vs most mech players
On October 15 2012 08:36 meatbox wrote: how do you counter archons?
was amazed to see 3 archons killing 3 ultralisks without microing, seemed like a hack haha, ultras were 2/4 archons were 2/2
If you're making ultras to deal with archons, you're doing it wrong. It kind of depends on the scenario, but the most effective way to deal with archons is probably fungal.
Actually ultras should win against archons. They're not the best counter, but they're pretty good because the archon splash doesn't harm other ultras due to the side of ultras.
This vid shows how 33 ultras win against 50 archons with a pretty large margin.
Also, fungal counters archons? What? You'd need to fungal a million times to kill an archon, and you'll only catch 2, maybe 3 archons in one fungal.
On October 15 2012 08:36 meatbox wrote: how do you counter archons?
was amazed to see 3 archons killing 3 ultralisks without microing, seemed like a hack haha, ultras were 2/4 archons were 2/2
If you're making ultras to deal with archons, you're doing it wrong. It kind of depends on the scenario, but the most effective way to deal with archons is probably fungal.
Actually ultras should win against archons. They're not the best counter, but they're pretty good because the archon splash doesn't harm other ultras due to the side of ultras.
This vid shows how 33 ultras win against 50 archons with a pretty large margin.
Also, fungal counters archons? What? You'd need to fungal a million times to kill an archon, and you'll only catch 2, maybe 3 archons in one fungal.
Sure. 33 ultras might beat 50 archons. Doesn't mean it's a good alternative. Archins can abuse chokes, etc Fungal + broodlord is good, fungal + IT is good, fungal + neural is good. Fungalled archons do 0 DPS because of their short range. You need ranged units and fungal to kill archons quickly/cost effectively.
just switching back to zerg from playing randomly. I'm been looking for the most update "standard" build orders for each ZvX. This probably gets answered all the time here but if one of you could tell me, show me, coach me, send me a rep, video link, or direct me to another thread/post, that would be awesome.
Again I'm looking for the best builds for each match-up that are safe and powerful: standard.
EPT
