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The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 405
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Voidzonez
Ireland15 Posts
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On October 13 2012 03:06 Voidzonez wrote: As Zerg how do I deal with like 3-5 Immortals at 15mins. When this happens it eats my Rorch, Infestor alive. Any help? Once again people, please provide replays. Questions like this are far too generalized and especially when you're asking about things like pushes at 15 minutes... we have to see the game in order to understand what exactly you're facing and what exactly you did to set yourself up for the later game. | ||
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whatevername
471 Posts
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SickeL
110 Posts
On October 13 2012 03:10 sCCrooked wrote: Once again people, please provide replays. Questions like this are far too generalized and especially when you're asking about things like pushes at 15 minutes... we have to see the game in order to understand what exactly you're facing and what exactly you did to set yourself up for the later game. heavy immortal play is generally the counter roach infestor- however, roach-ling into roach-ling-infestor covers that hole but leaves you vulnerable to immortal-sentry, so work on scouting and you can safely roach-ling instead. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On October 13 2012 09:04 SickeL wrote: heavy immortal play is generally the counter roach infestor- however, roach-ling into roach-ling-infestor covers that hole but leaves you vulnerable to immortal-sentry, so work on scouting and you can safely roach-ling instead. So roach ling > heavy immortal > roach infestor < immortal sentry Logic flaw  Heavy immortal means immortal/sentry no? If so, then it works. I just fail to see how a Protoss who skips sentries can ever hope to trade anything resembling cost efficiently against Zerg T1/1.5... | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On October 13 2012 09:18 Mavvie wrote: Heavy immortal means immortal/sentry no? If so, then it works. I just fail to see how a Protoss who skips sentries can ever hope to trade anything resembling cost efficiently against Zerg T1/1.5... They shouldn't be able to, hence the requests for a replay. | ||
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tzim
Poland8 Posts
here is a play vs terr, I know what to do... and I can win. here on the other hand my usual zvp struggles. I suck I am lost and I don't know what and when to do... I play like a bronze or even worse... I want to play aggressive, I want to use lings and mutas and banelings... I don't want to use roaches. Do you have a BO, or a VOD I can watch just to see what can I do ? I play completely in dark and I just have enough of it... | ||
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
On October 13 2012 22:00 tzim wrote: I am lost... I can't play vs protos any more. here is a play vs terr, I know what to do... and I can win. here on the other hand my usual zvp struggles. I suck I am lost and I don't know what and when to do... I play like a bronze or even worse... I want to play aggressive, I want to use lings and mutas and banelings... I don't want to use roaches. Do you have a BO, or a VOD I can watch just to see what can I do ? I play completely in dark and I just have enough of it... You need to use roaches but not all game long. Open standard 3 hatch 3 gas with roach warren then if the toss wants to all in you defend it with roach ling. As soon as you see him taking his third take all gases, build spire and build 4th base (5th should follow soon). Once the mutas are out you can start the fun part, that is being aggressive (just remember to make lings as well and attack with em in a different place, controlling toss army movement is the key to succes with this strategy). e:checked the rep, you need to completely rework your opening its soooo bad. If you dont know how a standard 3 hatch opening looks like check some stephano or idras vods | ||
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tzim
Poland8 Posts
e:checked the rep, you need to completely rework your opening its soooo bad. If you dont know how a standard 3 hatch opening looks like check some stephano or idras vods Thanks syriuszonito. Yeah I know, as I told before I am struggling with this f..g MU. Is 3 base the only reasonable opening ? Is there no other one ? I prefer to have 2 base saturated and in hatch before I start expo again. Every timing from Toss just kills me and I don't know what else (except the 3 base) I can do... Help me here guys. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On October 12 2012 23:34 MstrJinbo wrote: For the record I'm not advocating rage quitting if you get allined or not scouting. All I'm saying is to focus on building a lot of drones. At some point it is not about winning of losing it is getting comfortable with making a ton of drones early on in the game. From the posters question it doesn't sound like he's used to making enough drones. The trick seems to be to drone earlier and do upgrades and tech stuff later. Currently I try to not build roaches early on and not to begin +1 upgrades before I really know if I go melee or range. The games I won today were all won with low-tech mass units. Not cost-efficient but I had the economy. I lost more than usual I believe, but some games were close. On October 12 2012 23:50 ShamW0W wrote: It depends what you see. Against Protoss the biggest thing you can do is scout so that you understand what is coming from him. Here are some hopefully simple tips that you can work on to improve scouting vs. Protoss who FFE: #1: Keep an eye on their forge early. Is it researching? Is it being chrono'd? If this is yes then expect some form of early pressure. #2: Keep a ling on the location of where their 3rd would be taken. If they're not taking their 3rd until very late expect a large 2-base push and prepare. #3: Sacrifice an Overlord at 7 minutes. This one is key. You'll need to have an Overlord in decent position to send him into the Protoss base at 7 minutes. This will help you identify his tech choice which is usually either Robo, DTs, Stargate, or Blink. #4: How many gasses has the Protoss taken? - If 2, Early Zealot pressure is coming. Get a spine up on your 3rd and start getting lings out. Build your Roach Warren no later than 7 minutes. Scout for forward pylons. - If 3, make sure you start your evo chamber by 7 minutes. 3 Gas is most likely Zealot pressure with some tech on the back-end (DT or Stargate). If you sacrifice your Overlord at 7 minutes you'll have the information you need to react accordingly. If somehow you don't see the tech structure, I'd build at least 2 spores anyways, 1 at your nat and 1 at your 3rd. - If you see 4 Gas, Drone until 8 minutes. You can make a few defensive lings but in general this is a tech heavy approach by the Protoss. Your 7 minute Overlord scout will let you know if he's preparing some large all-in or if he's teching to defend an early 3rd. If you start focusing on these small scouting techniques you'll begin gaining more awareness against Protoss and start to understand what they're trying to do to beat you. The next step after that is applying the appropriate strategy for beating what they're doing but hopefully you've got some ideas on counter units there.  If you need extra help, this guide should be useful: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=368282 Thank you, although this is almost too much for now. But advice like putting a ling at his third to see when he is expanding is really useful, as simple as it is. Why didn't I came up with it on my own? I also should do this ovi sacking into the protoss base even though I don't have speed or overseers yet. But this fits into my new style of staying low-tech for longer anyway. I think I need more mechanical practice so that I just know "now its time to ovi-scout him" instead of constantly checking the ingame clock. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On October 14 2012 00:08 [F_]aths wrote: The trick seems to be to drone earlier and do upgrades and tech stuff later. Currently I try to not build roaches early on and not to begin +1 upgrades before I really know if I go melee or range. The games I won today were all won with low-tech mass units. Not cost-efficient but I had the economy. I lost more than usual I believe, but some games were close. Thank you, although this is almost too much for now. But advice like putting a ling at his third to see when he is expanding is really useful, as simple as it is. Why didn't I came up with it on my own? I also should do this ovi sacking into the protoss base even though I don't have speed or overseers yet. But this fits into my new style of staying low-tech for longer anyway. I think I need more mechanical practice so that I just know "now its time to ovi-scout him" instead of constantly checking the ingame clock. Actually you should absolutely not forget the ingame clock, for things such as gas timings etc. Anyway it's kinda hard to give advice because most silver league protoss players do not know their builds yet, which makes scouting them a bit harder in my opinion. But yeah the ~7:00 OVL sack really doesn't require speed or an overseer. | ||
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dis4ster
Netherlands9 Posts
On October 13 2012 23:56 tzim wrote: Thanks syriuszonito. Yeah I know, as I told before I am struggling with this f..g MU. Is 3 base the only reasonable opening ? Is there no other one ? I prefer to have 2 base saturated and in hatch before I start expo again. Every timing from Toss just kills me and I don't know what else (except the 3 base) I can do... Help me here guys. When protoss does a forge fast expand, going fast 3 base is your best option. The protoss cannot be aggressive before 7 minutes and most attacks come later than 7:30. You don't need speed or lots of queens to defend. Thus you have extra minerals to spend which results in you taking a fast third base. Just download one of stephano's replaypacks and copy his build. | ||
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dis4ster
Netherlands9 Posts
On October 14 2012 00:08 [F_]aths wrote: The trick seems to be to drone earlier and do upgrades and tech stuff later. Currently I try to not build roaches early on and not to begin +1 upgrades before I really know if I go melee or range. The games I won today were all won with low-tech mass units. Not cost-efficient but I had the economy. I lost more than usual I believe, but some games were close. Thank you, although this is almost too much for now. But advice like putting a ling at his third to see when he is expanding is really useful, as simple as it is. Why didn't I came up with it on my own? I also should do this ovi sacking into the protoss base even though I don't have speed or overseers yet. But this fits into my new style of staying low-tech for longer anyway. I think I need more mechanical practice so that I just know "now its time to ovi-scout him" instead of constantly checking the ingame clock. What helps for me is linking scouting to a decision you need to make in the game. If you play standard 3 base opener you take 2 gasses at 6 min. You have 2 choices to spend your first 100 gas at 7 min: zergling speed or lair. If you have an overlord at his gasses on the natural and a ling/overlord on his 3rd, the decision is pretty straight-forward. If he still hasn't taken the gasses, he could be coming with units really soon, so you opt for speed and sack an overlord asap to get an idea of what the toss is doing. If he's going for a fast 3rd, you can still cancel the speed and go for lair. If he has taken gasses before 7 min he is going for tech and you should go for lair and sack an overlord around 7:30 to see his tech choice. | ||
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smOOthMayDie
United States997 Posts
Here's the replay. http://drop.sc/264241 Not sure what I couldve done :/, more corrupters? I don't know. I feel like more corrupters wouldnt have helped vs the vikings, and thors seem to eat broods alive. ;-; | ||
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life617
United States25 Posts
http://drop.sc/264336 http://drop.sc/264334 | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On October 13 2012 06:17 whatevername wrote: zvz: Theres a 4 infestor timing attacking [so says vibe i dont know it] when you open infestors thats pretty good, is there a similar timing attack if you open mutas, once your both on a 3 base economy? A timing attack I like to do after opening muta shortly after my 3rd is done end sup with ~8 muta, and low drone saturation at my 3rd. 3 queen 3 hatch pumping lings and muta snipe banelings. Works pretty good especially if they dont have many roaches or excess queens. Even better if 3rd base is kind of far away. Edit: theres also another one where u can go for +1 attack 3 hatch 4 gas big roach speed attack. The 8 mutas clear overlords and force extra queens and infestor without as much roach defense. Then big followup of roaches. Its very much allin though and scoutable since u dont get gas at your 3rd base. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On October 14 2012 03:31 smOOthMayDie wrote: I'm losing late game ZvT Mass thor/viking vs Infestor/ling/broodlord and a few tanks + BFH. Here's the replay. http://drop.sc/264241 Not sure what I couldve done :/, more corrupters? I don't know. I feel like more corrupters wouldnt have helped vs the vikings, and thors seem to eat broods alive. ;-; You have the worst anti-mech play I've ever seen. You had the composition I use against bio (ling infestor BL), which of course melts to mech. So read very carefully, because you did not do a single thing correctly this game. You don't drone up your third and fourth when you take it, and you NEVER actually put drones in your 7th and 8th gases. You basically played 3 base ling infestor against 3 base mech. He was a full upgrade ahead of you at all times, your 1-1 started AFTER he had finished 1-1. You fell behind in workers at 48, because 2 hellions (not blueflame until 20+minutes in, btw) scared you so much you did not build drones at your third. So you have 2 base econ vs 3OC at that poin. Eventually it gets to the point where he has 4 base 8 gas, you have 3 base 6 gas. You end up down on supply, 109-120, while banking 2k+ minerals, at (I think) 12min. You got outmacro'd, and you sat back and let it happen. Expand, spine up--2k minerals is two bases with four spines and full gas saturation (12 drones). You don't understand roach play against mech, clearly shown in your discussion with your opponent at the end of the game. YOU NEED ROACHES AGAINST MECH. it's not to stop a mech timing attack, it's to actually fight mech and trade out his thors. You need roaches. It's like you know actually, literally nothing about fighting mech. You also sent out a squad of BLs to die. No support at all, just by themselves. That's the cardinal sin of zerg lategame right there. You don't drop infested terrans with your infestors after fungals, so a lot of them die with full energy. You clump your BLs against the thors. You don't remax as you lose units. You let him walk up and siege on top of your fourth. You fully commit with your army before forcing an unsiege via broodlings. No part of the engagement was done correctly. Summary: Your macro was bad. You had the wrong composition. You didn't keep up with macro (expos, droning new expos). You engaged terribly. You need roaches. Your upgrades were way behind. You didn't deny planetaries from going down. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On October 14 2012 11:58 6xFPCs wrote: You have the worst anti-mech play I've ever seen. You had the composition I use against bio (ling infestor BL), which of course melts to mech. So read very carefully, because you did not do a single thing correctly this game. You don't drone up your third and fourth when you take it, and you NEVER actually put drones in your 7th and 8th gases. You basically played 3 base ling infestor against 3 base mech. He was a full upgrade ahead of you at all times, your 1-1 started AFTER he had finished 1-1. You fell behind in workers at 48, because 2 hellions (not blueflame until 20+minutes in, btw) scared you so much you did not build drones at your third. So you have 2 base econ vs 3OC at that poin. Eventually it gets to the point where he has 4 base 8 gas, you have 3 base 6 gas. You end up down on supply, 109-120, while banking 2k+ minerals, at (I think) 12min. You got outmacro'd, and you sat back and let it happen. Expand, spine up--2k minerals is two bases with four spines and full gas saturation (12 drones). You don't understand roach play against mech, clearly shown in your discussion with your opponent at the end of the game. YOU NEED ROACHES AGAINST MECH. it's not to stop a mech timing attack, it's to actually fight mech and trade out his thors. You need roaches. It's like you know actually, literally nothing about fighting mech. You also sent out a squad of BLs to die. No support at all, just by themselves. That's the cardinal sin of zerg lategame right there. You don't drop infested terrans with your infestors after fungals, so a lot of them die with full energy. You clump your BLs against the thors. You don't remax as you lose units. You let him walk up and siege on top of your fourth. You fully commit with your army before forcing an unsiege via broodlings. No part of the engagement was done correctly. Summary: Your macro was bad. You had the wrong composition. You didn't keep up with macro (expos, droning new expos). You engaged terribly. You need roaches. Your upgrades were way behind. You didn't deny planetaries from going down. You summed it up perfectly ^^ Watching the replay I was squirming at the mistakes. Ended up being too lazy to write it up I'm not convinced fast broodlords are the way to play against mech, and you state that roaches are necessary. I agree, and next game I play against mech I'll do huge roach+drops aggression. Here's a question I have for people: Do you think it's a good idea to do super heavy midgame aggression? I'm about a mid-masters Zerg, and always played the most heavy macro, non-aggressive style out there. You know, ling/infestor into fast broodlords, standard stuff. However, I played a few games and did a standard roach/ling max but w/ drops against Protoss, and it was SO much fun! Instead of turtling and hoping I didn't make a mistake, I was doing multipronged drops and runbys, sniping tech + probes while simultaneously macroing. It was amazing, and in the end I had to baserace and won. It delays hive + tech, but it's so much more fun. But it's an all-in, so it seems like a "bad" style to play... In ZvT, a similar concept would be huge muta/ling/bane aggression, with no intention of getting a hive. It's really effective and really fun, but is also very "all-in". Is it reasonable to do such styles? Some pros do it, but people say that the standard Zerg play is to turtle to hive + infestors, and anything else is cheesy/all-in. Will I hit a skill cap with this style? I can't believe so, considering Life/DRG/Nestea/other top pro Zergs have effectively ended games against macro play by using muta/ling/bane timings (2/2 speedbane mostly). | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
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whatevername
471 Posts
ZVP aggression: Filter in some infestor drops it can force an allin *very* easily, and with that kind of trading style infestors work bloody wonders. Dont let others dictate you how to play the game. If you find it fun and you can make it work do it. | ||
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