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On October 10 2012 19:26 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 19:14 Aelendis wrote:On October 10 2012 19:02 Azoryen wrote:
OK, I have another question, I've noticed many pros don't drone scout in ZvT.
I do it mainly to for this reason: if I scout a 2 rax proxy (no rax in his main) I save more larva for lings.
Sure, it's nice to check the gas, but if he doesn't expand and doesn't 2rax you, this already tells you it's a gas all-in, so not much point in checking gas IMO.
Are there any other reasons to drone scout apart from 2rax?
Is it possible to survive 2rax without drone scout or do the pros just risk dying to it because they assume 1raxFE 90% of the time? What I've seen lately is that pros don't drone scout but instead check proxy locations with a drone. The explaination is that on almost every map, the first overlord is near the natural of the terran and can spot expansion timing. If there's no CC by 3:30, you can assume something cheesy is going on. 2 rax is definitely holdable without drone scout, because as I said, you know with your ovie it's coming. Proxy 2 rax is harder to defend, hence the drone check. Thanks. From what I saw in replays, with proxy 2 rax terran shows up a your natural with the 2 scvs and first marine at around 3:30, so the OL checking the expansion doesn't give you much ahead scouting for that. The drone checking proxy locations seems like a good alternative, if you find it early you can fight it far away from your base. I guess I have to study proxy locations for the various maps  Another question: is 2rax proxy possible in 4spawn location maps like Antiga?
Yes, they just build them in the middle and send 1 scv to each base, first marin to the last one.
I watched about 5 games of idrA a couple of nights ago playing the same guy every game on ladder, the only map he scouted on was Ohana, and then he took a long scouting line to check for 2 rax proxy pressure.
All other maps he just 15h 17p 2 lings to scout.
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On October 10 2012 17:20 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 15:35 sCCrooked wrote:
I'm gonna have to disagree with you there 6x. I'm also mid-masters and I find the vast majority of the map pool to be virtually unplayable since I'm facing 1500+ masters now on ladder. They can just exploit the map imbalances too well.
Antiga they can freaking hit my third from their main base. Not to mention problems taking a 4th and holding it against a decent opponent.
Entombed close positions is retarded. Even pros just all-in when they see it happen. Also its ridiculously easy for P to do say... a 1 gate triple nexus build on that map. No matter what you do unless you went like 3 hatch before pool, you'll be behind them. If you try to pressure, they just sim city and park their army in the middle where the rocks used to be. T can also establish a ridiculously fast 3 bases while you still have to worry about things like bunkers or cannons so you can't do the only builds possible that could put you on even ground with such greed.
Shakuras... don't get me started on how hard it is to hold your third when T and P can just drop stuff onto the other main above it (or put air stuff up there where you can't hit). Also Ts can use that rocked-in area to do a tank/MMM push that's damn near unstoppable. Also T can use 3 bunkers at your natural that create a perfect sim city you can't break. They just sit behind them and repair them while you can't actually get anything but queens to attack them. Unless you create a bunch of spines and put yourself way behind, its really dangerous. If you DO put down the necessary spines, they just salvage the bunkers and move back to their base.
Condemned I thought was ok but I do have trouble if a T does say a double drop on that ledge. It becomes difficult unless you spread creep up there via overlord pooping it or something and spine/spore it up. Also its huge size makes it problematic much like Metropolis in that it encourages incredibly stale split-map play. Ever try holding 6-7 bases on that map while they have 17+ warpgates 3 warp prisms running around dt tech and a mothership deathball in the middle?
I also have issues with TDA just because of the rampless ZvZ. I hate it slightly less than the others I've mentioned so far though. I also slightly hate Cloud Kingdom just because of facing Immo/Sentry on it.
Other than those complaints though, I do try to compensate for the map imbalances and tricks that T and P can get away with because of the designs. Its just really really sad that compensating for poor maps that comprise almost the entire pool is considered "just something you have to deal with" though. Thanks for your input. Possibly NA is just easier, and I'm not hitting the serious abuse you're seeing. I definitely agree on Shakuras, it's the one map I would consider completely not-fun to play on (TDA has its moments, non-zvz anyway). My biggest peeve is tanks on the central plateaus, personally, though attempting to hold sentry-immortal or 7-gate all-ins while they sit between your natural and third comes in at a close second. I am more ok with condemned ridge than I was with metropolis, actually. I heavily spine and spore my bases after I reach 5 bases, and I make sure to send overlords to drop creep at expo spots that I want to take, just to get a few spores/spines started while the hatch builds. I have only played one or two zvps that went to lategame there, though, and I found that the map is just so large that BLs just don't do much. I like condemned because the sheer size makes for an interesting feel to it, the sense that you're in a huge, huge map. Also because ling runbys work very well in zvp, I like to just rally some eggs into various bases and watch them fumble. I also kind of feel the same about having to compensate for some of the imbalances, but at the same time, I've found that simple preparations (i guess i mostly mean placing some spores?) can make poor maps relatively even, e.g. antiga drop abuse if they siege below your main. I feel like entombed, though, is bad for current zerg styles, not necessarily bad for zerg; in fact, I'd try to convince you that zergs all-in when they get close positions entombed more because it empowers things like roach-bane due to the short distance, not just because it's tough to keep up with greedy Terran/Protoss. Even then, against greedy Protoss or such, knowing that they might go fast three base is a nice chance to go to hive tech fast. Out of curiosity, do you have a favorite map/map that you think zerg is good on? Sounds like you're pretty down on everything right now. EDIT: I want to add that I am closer to vetoing Ohana than Antiga. ZvT is a nightmare for me there, in spite of my ZvT record this season being 18-6 (75%).
Lol, I thank you for your input. I actually think I'm pretty bad xD
Right now I feel the overall understanding of Zerg on various maps (especially by T and P users) is very skewed. They think "Oh these big maps are all Z favored" when in fact BIG actually means REALLY BAD for our lategame since BL/festor is so darned immobile while T and P can literally just drop or move EVERYWHERE with next to no consequence if they lose the drop or warp-in entirely. While some say "oh you just need spine/spore", I don't understand how to get enough out. Even pros like Losira and IdrA or DRG I see losing massive tech and expos in lategame just because like 8 chargelots run into the main while 5 dts and 5 zealots are chugging away on another expo. The sheer amount of spines and spores it takes to actually stop a warp-in or a double-drop of 3/3 marine/maurader is staggering. I really don't see how they can possibly think we can afford 20+ spines/spores at every expo. Its just not possible to do that and afford the ridiculously-expensive BL/festor/corruptor combo we so desperately need at that stage.
My favorite map still has to be Daybreak right now. I feel its just really balanced at this current stage of the meta. It follows almost all strategies well, has good places for cheesy proxies and the third is JUST far enough away from the natural that T/P can't park their armies right between them and effectively cover both from a multi-pronged assault (you can still snipe the CC/Nexus if you position properly).
Honestly though I feel the next generation of maps is going to have to be very different from what we're seeing now. Not just because of HotS being right around the corner, but also because players as a whole are realizing just how bad the pool currently is and the various changes that need to be made to the various units in order to maintain a sense of balance while giving us a new feel and new toys to play with.
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On October 11 2012 01:09 b0ub0u wrote:
Unable to win in ZvP Platinum NA
Assuming FFE, I keep hearing that food count at 8min should be around 60. Is this correct?
How many drones should I have at that time?
I am a passive player that always try to absorb the first attack and then turn aggressive from there. But with P it seems I am never able to survive that first attack.
So basically at 8min I start unit production. Half lings and half roaches is good? Also +1 melee instead of ranged? What about infestors should I rush to them? From what I understand as soon as P secure third base I should aim for fourth base and do a spine wall and go to broods. It's like I can never even get to that stage. I also need to see the push moving out so I can engage in the middle of the map right?
Sorry for the tons of questions. I am at a loss against P. I started to receive some coaching but any help from here would be appreciated as well!
You want to ideally be closer to 70+ supply at 8 minutes, and you want to have an idea whether or not he's all-inning... pros do this via a single- or double-OL sac (one through nat, one through main). If he is going for an allin, you're probably not going to have time for tech (like infestors) and it's better to go all roach/ling, with +1 on the lings. If he's going immo/sentry, then you need a very good surround with creep spread, and don't let him get into a corner.
The better option is to basetrade; move all your drones to your nat, turn them into spines, and go kill him with your roach/ling force. There's a couple of guides on TL about how to do this.
If he's gateway-allining, this can hit as early as 7:30ish. A good tell for this is the gasses at his nat. If they're not taken, you can typically assume some kind of gateway pressure.
As far as post-survival or macro games, going for something like roach max is a little easier than infestor/BL, kind of depends on your style. There're a lot of viable ways to play ZvP, so I would pick something that's simple and works for you. Roach max with constant reinforce/aggression is the easiest IMO, and it's a really strong build... should work well at your level.
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whats the best response to marine hellion with little marauders and medivacs?
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Sorry, but you are going to have to post a replay or be more specific; its really hard to know what the correct response is just based on what you've said. The point in the game, the amounts of each units, etc... I would suggest posting a replay.
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does anyone have any good pointers or set ups for lategame zerg armycontrol?
also lategame composition vs protoss? (a bit more specific that infestor brood, like ratios in relation to protoss army etc)
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I'd like to know a good 2 base all-in for ZvZ please.
Replays or vids appreciated.
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On October 11 2012 10:09 Azoryen wrote:
I'd like to know a good 2 base all-in for ZvZ please.
Replays or vids appreciated.
I know Tang writes a lot of "all-in" builds, but as I don't wanna dig into strategy forum, here's a link to his website: http://tangstarcraft.com/?page_id=1602 .
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On October 11 2012 10:14 Aelendis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 10:09 Azoryen wrote:
I'd like to know a good 2 base all-in for ZvZ please.
Replays or vids appreciated. I know Tang writes a lot of "all-in" builds, but as I don't wanna dig into strategy forum, here's a link to his website: http://tangstarcraft.com/?page_id=1602 .
Great link, thanks!
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In bw zvp there was a 3 hatch hydra build towards the end that just produced a handful of hydras, while droning. The protoss never had the scouting to discern the difference between an all in and simple pressure and would fall behind from over cannoning. I've been wondering if this is applicable at all for zvp in sc2, has anyone tried it? Thoughts on it?
edit: with roaches.
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On October 11 2012 03:20 Corsica wrote:
whats the best response to marine hellion with little marauders and medivacs?
Probably standard defense that DRG popularized ages ago would be Roach + Lings + Bane with a flank of lings to pin the escape route down to give time for your banes to catch up. Can also work sans Roach but will be more difficult. Scouting is the key here to know if that stuff is heading your way so you can prepare.
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On October 11 2012 10:43 whatevername wrote:
In bw zvp there was a 3 hatch hydra build towards the end that just produced a handful of hydras, while droning. The protoss never had the scouting to discern the difference between an all in and simple pressure and would fall behind from over cannoning. I've been wondering if this is applicable at all for zvp in sc2, has anyone tried it? Thoughts on it?
edit: with roaches.
I played some bw, though I stopped following it more than a year ago.
What you're looking for is a roach-ling all-in where you don't take (or fake taking, or take and don't drone) the third base against FFE, I think. Queens deny early scouts of gas taken in your main, then ling speed allows you to deny scouts after that. The problem is that in BW, you could pick off cannons and goons with good hydra play, and start trashing the natural anytime they refuse to engage. In SC2, roaches have terrible range, and often can't tangle with cannons without risking serious losses, and FF is a whole new wrench in the plan that lets them delay and delay forever, or just trap and kill enough that you're seriously behind. Lings can't do much because of the wall, no surprises there. Again on the range issue, roaches can't do much to force a fight by damaging buildings, to get close enough to do so means risking FFs. Add on the fact that as protoss tech kicks in, immortals are two or three times easier to keep alive compared to reavers (based on number of volleys when you try to move in for a snipe, and the roach range), and you basically have a high risk, low reward strategy that's has very little going for it.
So quick answer, there is something similar, but it's not good.
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On October 11 2012 10:52 Slardar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 03:20 Corsica wrote:
whats the best response to marine hellion with little marauders and medivacs? Probably standard defense that DRG popularized ages ago would be Roach + Lings + Bane with a flank of lings to pin the escape route down to give time for your banes to catch up. Can also work sans Roach but will be more difficult. Scouting is the key here to know if that stuff is heading your way so you can prepare.
I have no idea what to say about any of this because we have no idea if this is an 8 marine 4 hellion 2 medivac timing that manages to hit a little later after adding marauders, or if he's talking about a maxed army of mostly marine hellion medivac.
But I will recommend infestors, because they stop everything in that list.
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On October 11 2012 12:00 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 10:52 Slardar wrote:On October 11 2012 03:20 Corsica wrote:
whats the best response to marine hellion with little marauders and medivacs? Probably standard defense that DRG popularized ages ago would be Roach + Lings + Bane with a flank of lings to pin the escape route down to give time for your banes to catch up. Can also work sans Roach but will be more difficult. Scouting is the key here to know if that stuff is heading your way so you can prepare. I have no idea what to say about any of this because we have no idea if this is an 8 marine 4 hellion 2 medivac timing that manages to hit a little later after adding marauders, or if he's talking about a maxed army of mostly marine hellion medivac. But I will recommend infestors, because they stop everything in that list.
I aggree
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I'm stuck losing to high diamonds and low masters and smashing non top diamonds. It's getting kind of frustrating because I've been stuck here for at least 200 games this season and maybe 300. I feel like I'm learning, but my matchups seem to be about the same since I've started. I'm at #1 diamond and I've been stuck here forever.
zvz I usually beat low masters. zvp I sometimes lose to high plats. zvt I have over a 50% winrate, but if they do a 7 thor helion with one tank push and do it right I have no idea how to defend it. Or if they macro and mech around the map like on daybreak or cloud. I feel like sc2 is so build order/unit composition dependent now compared to bw. In beta for sc2 I would just try to make a ton of units and expand all over the map, but it doesn't feel like I can do that anymore. Are there any newer rep packs where someone plays somewhat normally without doing crazy builds and where I don't have to keep logging out and back in to watch?
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Cant deal with Hellion/Thor/Banshee!
What is the most cost efficient/best way to deal with this? And which timings are crucial to know?
I usually find myself struggling a lot when when trying to go for three early bases. My friend (masters) first harrass med with 4-6 Hellions (easily dealt with on nat and main, but queens are so slow offcreep, leaving room for hellions to turtle between nat and third).
Can you still go 5 queen no gas until 40 supply, or do I need to take gas earlier to get speed?
Usually the hellions are followed up with 2-3 cloacked banshees terrorizing 3rd. Behind this he is saturating his 3rd and getting Thors.
Then it ends up with a 3-base push with 5-7 banshees, 5+ Thors and around blueflame 10 hellions pushing.
I've not been able to take a 4th due to banshees, and the banshees are crushing my roach-heavy army. infested terrans dont live long enough to take down the banshees and the chainfungal isnt enough by itself.
How do you deal with this? Saturate two bases and push with roaches before 3rd? Go fast gas to get slings and then harrass/do runby's (not that easy on cloud kingdom)? Get a handful of mutas to deal with first banshee wave?
Skip roaches to get fast 3/3 - Cracklings/ultras/infestors to deal with the deathball?
Or do you do micro intensive play like I've seen som GM's do with roach drop and constant harrass??
Any vods?
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Just go with some muta before infestors. 6 mutas are ok, and it forces the terran to build turrets everywhere. If he doesnt have a lot of thors when your mutas go out, you can go with 10-15 mutas, a roachball, and snipe thors so that your muta can destroy everything.
Basically, third, build roaches, then go to lair and build spire. You should have an overseer when cloack arrives, and if you dont, just build a spore in all your mineral lines, and one in front to fight with your queens.
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So you dont drone up on the third before you have roaches out?
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Hey guys,
i was watching Day9s Daily #512, which revolved around BO optimization for Zergs. For anyone, who didnt see it i will summarize it: He just said, dont ever, ever have idle larvae, have enough overlords and than follow your BO. Its a simple idea and works great, but it also puts up some questions for me (low master Z):
1. Is it reasonable to stick to this idea, when you got a good 2-Base saturation, or should you instead save your money for a 3rd, than go back to unit production ?
2. Or is it better, to still produce drones and overlords, until you got none larvae left and check your money after that production round and think about an expo, if you got 300.
Since my ZvZ and ZvP Builds are pretty sharp and clear, i dont got any problems with this concept regarding this MUs. But considering my ZvT-Style (very oldschool Fast Lair on 2 Base with Mutas, securing my 3rd), im a little bit in trouble. I have like 60 drones on 2base, until my larvae runs out and i got enuff money to go for my 3rd. The saturation just doesnt seem very profitable for a long time, with so many drones on two base, although my money is too low for a 3rd.
Maybe you can put up your thoughts ?
TL:DR: When you play ZvT Fast Mutas do you expand when you reach 2-base saturation or do you expand when you got none Larvae left and enough money to expand ?
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EPT
