EPTBut it's better than close spawns entombed/TDA in general/shakuras ZvT
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
But it's better than close spawns entombed/TDA in general/shakuras ZvT | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On October 10 2012 11:34 Mavvie wrote: Yeah, just vetoe entombed lol. I wish you could vetoe 4 maps, fuck antiga. But it's better than close spawns entombed/TDA in general/shakuras ZvT What's wrong with TDA and Shakuras? I thought after they killed off the rocks TDA would be ok other than the ridiculous elevator play possible on that map, and I've always liked Shakuras. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On October 10 2012 12:03 Defenestrator wrote: What's wrong with TDA and Shakuras? I thought after they killed off the rocks TDA would be ok other than the ridiculous elevator play possible on that map, and I've always liked Shakuras. ZvZ on TDA is impossible, nothing but 14/14 ling bane all ins (which is nearly impossible to hold without a ramp). I like shakuras, but hard to defend third in all matchups. You either expand to the third that's in the middle of the map or you take the one that has a few ridges and ramps between your natural and it. So yeah, shak is a good map (albeit really old), except for the defending of a third. I like it for infestor/spine turtle ZvP though, haha. If you aren't getting 7gated/immortal-sentry'd, it's a half decent map. It just has its flaws that actually make it worse than Antiga IMO. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On October 09 2012 21:36 Alex) wrote: You should try 15 hatch, 17 pool, 16 gas then build 3 drones to 18/18 then an overlord. I do it and I dont feel like my eco is bebide. I just love quick speed to deal with all ins and the gas is there if you need to go banes because you scout some stupid crazy all in. What? Seriously? You end up really far behind a 3OC behind, and a proper bunker defense is as impenetrable to speedlings as FFE. Queens are the better, more consistent answer to "stupid crazy all-in", not banes. You eco is behind if you get <18 gas, period. I don't think there's an argument to be had about it. Why do you think 4-6 queen gasless is so standard? This just sounds like bad advice across the board. On October 10 2012 09:10 AndySCWilson wrote: ZVT Entombed Valley, Imba spawns (ie they're to your side). Normally I drone scout to the side and if they're there I just cheese hitting some roach/ling/bane timing around 830 or so. But if they wall their front off with rax this is basically impossible. Then they can hit any 2-base timing they want and kill your third. Additionally they can easily take a third, then take the 4th that's between your spawns and turn it into a planetary... What to do  I don't veto entombed, I think it's a good map. Three spines at the top of a ramp, plus a bunch of lings, is a strong defense, and you get to abuse the defensive nature of the map as well as any Terran or Protoss. The ramps are also fungal heaven as you enter midgame, whether they're his ramps or yours--so much so taht if you can control the map and keep him from moving down the ramp, you can starve him with just ling-bane-infestor (spores at home). Play to the strengths of the map, entombed is defensive as any map can ever be (until you take your fourth), so take three bases fast and spine+spore heavily. When he moves out, just flank with ling bane on creep, as entombed has the easiest creep spread paths in the map pool, with no real cliffs/ramps in mid. On October 10 2012 11:34 Mavvie wrote: Yeah, just vetoe entombed lol. I wish you could vetoe 4 maps, fuck antiga. But it's better than close spawns entombed/TDA in general/shakuras ZvT If you prepare against the obvious drops or warp-ins (vT and vP, of course) on close positions, Antiga becomes a fun map. In fact, Terran especially always try to use either drops or banshees if they spawn clockwise to you (i.e. their third faces your main), so 3-4 spores along that side suddenly swings things into your favor. I might post a replay in a bit, because I really feel like spores are absolutely required when playing zvt on Antiga, in the main and at the third. I know I'm disagreeing with everyone a lot here, but hey I'm mid-masters now (top 25)! So maybe I know things. Or maybe blade or fuzzy will come by and blast us all apart for being stupid. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
Antiga they can freaking hit my third from their main base. Not to mention problems taking a 4th and holding it against a decent opponent. Entombed close positions is retarded. Even pros just all-in when they see it happen. Also its ridiculously easy for P to do say... a 1 gate triple nexus build on that map. No matter what you do unless you went like 3 hatch before pool, you'll be behind them. If you try to pressure, they just sim city and park their army in the middle where the rocks used to be. T can also establish a ridiculously fast 3 bases while you still have to worry about things like bunkers or cannons so you can't do the only builds possible that could put you on even ground with such greed. Shakuras... don't get me started on how hard it is to hold your third when T and P can just drop stuff onto the other main above it (or put air stuff up there where you can't hit). Also Ts can use that rocked-in area to do a tank/MMM push that's damn near unstoppable. Also T can use 3 bunkers at your natural that create a perfect sim city you can't break. They just sit behind them and repair them while you can't actually get anything but queens to attack them. Unless you create a bunch of spines and put yourself way behind, its really dangerous. If you DO put down the necessary spines, they just salvage the bunkers and move back to their base. Condemned I thought was ok but I do have trouble if a T does say a double drop on that ledge. It becomes difficult unless you spread creep up there via overlord pooping it or something and spine/spore it up. Also its huge size makes it problematic much like Metropolis in that it encourages incredibly stale split-map play. Ever try holding 6-7 bases on that map while they have 17+ warpgates 3 warp prisms running around dt tech and a mothership deathball in the middle? I also have issues with TDA just because of the rampless ZvZ. I hate it slightly less than the others I've mentioned so far though. I also slightly hate Cloud Kingdom just because of facing Immo/Sentry on it. Other than those complaints though, I do try to compensate for the map imbalances and tricks that T and P can get away with because of the designs. Its just really really sad that compensating for poor maps that comprise almost the entire pool is considered "just something you have to deal with" though. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On October 10 2012 15:35 sCCrooked wrote: I'm gonna have to disagree with you there 6x. I'm also mid-masters and I find the vast majority of the map pool to be virtually unplayable since I'm facing 1500+ masters now on ladder. They can just exploit the map imbalances too well. Antiga they can freaking hit my third from their main base. Not to mention problems taking a 4th and holding it against a decent opponent. Entombed close positions is retarded. Even pros just all-in when they see it happen. Also its ridiculously easy for P to do say... a 1 gate triple nexus build on that map. No matter what you do unless you went like 3 hatch before pool, you'll be behind them. If you try to pressure, they just sim city and park their army in the middle where the rocks used to be. T can also establish a ridiculously fast 3 bases while you still have to worry about things like bunkers or cannons so you can't do the only builds possible that could put you on even ground with such greed. Shakuras... don't get me started on how hard it is to hold your third when T and P can just drop stuff onto the other main above it (or put air stuff up there where you can't hit). Also Ts can use that rocked-in area to do a tank/MMM push that's damn near unstoppable. Also T can use 3 bunkers at your natural that create a perfect sim city you can't break. They just sit behind them and repair them while you can't actually get anything but queens to attack them. Unless you create a bunch of spines and put yourself way behind, its really dangerous. If you DO put down the necessary spines, they just salvage the bunkers and move back to their base. Condemned I thought was ok but I do have trouble if a T does say a double drop on that ledge. It becomes difficult unless you spread creep up there via overlord pooping it or something and spine/spore it up. Also its huge size makes it problematic much like Metropolis in that it encourages incredibly stale split-map play. Ever try holding 6-7 bases on that map while they have 17+ warpgates 3 warp prisms running around dt tech and a mothership deathball in the middle? I also have issues with TDA just because of the rampless ZvZ. I hate it slightly less than the others I've mentioned so far though. I also slightly hate Cloud Kingdom just because of facing Immo/Sentry on it. Other than those complaints though, I do try to compensate for the map imbalances and tricks that T and P can get away with because of the designs. Its just really really sad that compensating for poor maps that comprise almost the entire pool is considered "just something you have to deal with" though. Thanks for your input. Possibly NA is just easier, and I'm not hitting the serious abuse you're seeing. I definitely agree on Shakuras, it's the one map I would consider completely not-fun to play on (TDA has its moments, non-zvz anyway). My biggest peeve is tanks on the central plateaus, personally, though attempting to hold sentry-immortal or 7-gate all-ins while they sit between your natural and third comes in at a close second. I am more ok with condemned ridge than I was with metropolis, actually. I heavily spine and spore my bases after I reach 5 bases, and I make sure to send overlords to drop creep at expo spots that I want to take, just to get a few spores/spines started while the hatch builds. I have only played one or two zvps that went to lategame there, though, and I found that the map is just so large that BLs just don't do much. I like condemned because the sheer size makes for an interesting feel to it, the sense that you're in a huge, huge map. Also because ling runbys work very well in zvp, I like to just rally some eggs into various bases and watch them fumble. I also kind of feel the same about having to compensate for some of the imbalances, but at the same time, I've found that simple preparations (i guess i mostly mean placing some spores?) can make poor maps relatively even, e.g. antiga drop abuse if they siege below your main. I feel like entombed, though, is bad for current zerg styles, not necessarily bad for zerg; in fact, I'd try to convince you that zergs all-in when they get close positions entombed more because it empowers things like roach-bane due to the short distance, not just because it's tough to keep up with greedy Terran/Protoss. Even then, against greedy Protoss or such, knowing that they might go fast three base is a nice chance to go to hive tech fast. Out of curiosity, do you have a favorite map/map that you think zerg is good on? Sounds like you're pretty down on everything right now. EDIT: I want to add that I am closer to vetoing Ohana than Antiga. ZvT is a nightmare for me there, in spite of my ZvT record this season being 18-6 (75%). | ||
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AndySCWilson
43 Posts
On October 10 2012 11:26 Slardar wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 10 2012 09:10 AndySCWilson wrote: ZVT Entombed Valley, Imba spawns (ie they're to your side). Normally I drone scout to the side and if they're there I just cheese hitting some roach/ling/bane timing around 830 or so. But if they wall their front off with rax this is basically impossible. Then they can hit any 2-base timing they want and kill your third. Additionally they can easily take a third, then take the 4th that's between your spawns and turn it into a planetary... What to do Well you're going to have to play a fast-paced game at Tier 2. I recommend just going 2-base Mutalisk and taking a third at the middle then getting burrow banelings asap along the trails to your main base. Pretty much shuts down Hellion+Banshee since you're not going to be spreading much creep anyway, and can catch Terrans off guard with a big bane bomb. Or just veto the map, close vs Protoss sucks as well . 2-base colossus push is painful. I have TDA and Condemned Ridge veto'd because I don't consider them "real maps". i.e. they're not in any tournament pools. At least not in any tournaments I play in (local). I'd used my one other veto on Shak plateau. Because it's absolutely miserable, and I hate playing on it. I feel comfortable playing against hellion and banshee play. What I really struggle with is marine/tank. They'll normally do an early marine timing to try and snipe a third - then later push out with tanks. The pathway to my base is so narrow it's hard to engage well. I like the baneling landmine idea though - hadn't really thought to use that in this position. | ||
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Azoryen
Portugal242 Posts
I'm going 15hatch/15pool, after that not sure. Most pro replays seem to assume terran also FE but that's not always the case at low leagues. Any replays/vids appreciated. | ||
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InspectorPing
Germany8 Posts
I'm bronze and I need a safe build for ZvT which allows me to hold any 1base all-ins/pressure. I'm going 15hatch/15pool, after that not sure. Most pro replays seem to assume terran also FE but that's not always the case at low leagues. Any replays/vids appreciated. I would suggest you do a quick speedling BO and add a baneling nest early, if you scout something that makes you think an one base all in is coming. The BO is this: 9 Overlod 14 Gas 14 Pool 15 Overlord Take the 3 drones of gas as soon as they have mined 100 for speed, or keep them there if you want a baneling nest super early 16 Queen + 1 pair of lings (send to his base, scout his movements) + zergling speed 19 Hatch, 2nd Queen immediatly after the first Queen finishes Return the 3 Drones to Gas (Dont forget this!) With this you should be able to hold any sort of all in, note that this is just the opening, from here you can react (spines, banelings, evo) Dont have a replay right now, but its pretty standard, im sure you can do it! I have some questions too: What is the current standard in ZvT against bio? I myself am high platinum right now and am getting real trouble against a good terran player. I open up 6 Queens and can get my 3rd pretty safe, but how do i spend my money correctly, what is the unitmix I want to go for and how do I play and engage correctly? And more of a general question: Can somebody tell me some generell pustimings in any (Zv*) matchup? I seem just to attack when I crashed his attack, am maxed or think to have an advantage. Thanks! | ||
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Azoryen
Portugal242 Posts
On October 10 2012 18:29 InspectorPing wrote: I would suggest you do a quick speedling BO and add a baneling nest early, if you scout something that makes you think an one base all in is coming. The BO is this: 9 Overlod 14 Gas 14 Pool 15 Overlord Take the 3 drones of gas as soon as they have mined 100 for speed, or keep them there if you want a baneling nest super early 16 Queen + 1 pair of lings (send to his base, scout his movements) + zergling speed 19 Hatch, 2nd Queen immediatly after the first Queen finishes Return the 3 Drones to Gas (Dont forget this!) With this you should be able to hold any sort of all in, note that this is just the opening, from here you can react (spines, banelings, evo) Dont have a replay right now, but its pretty standard, im sure you can do it! I have some questions too: What is the current standard in ZvT against bio? I myself am high platinum right now and am getting real trouble against a good terran player. I open up 6 Queens and can get my 3rd pretty safe, but how do i spend my money correctly, what is the unitmix I want to go for and how do I play and engage correctly? And more of a general question: Can somebody tell me some generell pustimings in any (Zv*) matchup? I seem just to attack when I crashed his attack, am maxed or think to have an advantage. Thanks! Thanks for the suggestion, but like I said I'm going 15h/15p, my question is for after that. | ||
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InspectorPing
Germany8 Posts
 no offense, but that is my experience. At least try to go pool before hatch and get early speed, banelings and some (not too many) spines if you are wary of an 1 pase push/all-in.User was warned for this post | ||
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Aelendis
Belgium892 Posts
Edit: On October 10 2012 18:48 InspectorPing wrote: Well, if youre bronze (actually any league) and do a hatch first and he properly 1 base all ins, you lose, easy as that no offense, but that is my experience. At least try to go pool before hatch and get early speed, banelings and some (not too many) spines if you are wary of an 1 pase push/all-in.User was warned for this post What, not at all. You must hatch first versus T, especially against one base all-ins. You need larvae to defend, so 15 hatch 15 pool is a really good build in bronze, imo. Not too greedy and really safe against everything. | ||
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Azoryen
Portugal242 Posts
I do it mainly to for this reason: if I scout a 2 rax proxy (no rax in his main) I save more larva for lings. Sure, it's nice to check the gas, but if he doesn't expand and doesn't 2rax you, this already tells you it's a gas all-in, so not much point in checking gas IMO. Are there any other reasons to drone scout apart from 2rax? Is it possible to survive 2rax without drone scout or do the pros just risk dying to it because they assume 1raxFE 90% of the time? | ||
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Aelendis
Belgium892 Posts
On October 10 2012 19:02 Azoryen wrote: OK, I have another question, I've noticed many pros don't drone scout in ZvT. I do it mainly to for this reason: if I scout a 2 rax proxy (no rax in his main) I save more larva for lings. Sure, it's nice to check the gas, but if he doesn't expand and doesn't 2rax you, this already tells you it's a gas all-in, so not much point in checking gas IMO. Are there any other reasons to drone scout apart from 2rax? Is it possible to survive 2rax without drone scout or do the pros just risk dying to it because they assume 1raxFE 90% of the time? What I've seen lately is that pros don't drone scout but instead check proxy locations with a drone. The explaination is that on almost every map, the first overlord is near the natural of the terran and can spot expansion timing. If there's no CC by 3:30, you can assume something cheesy is going on. 2 rax is definitely holdable without drone scout, because as I said, you know with your ovie it's coming. Proxy 2 rax is harder to defend, hence the drone check. | ||
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Azoryen
Portugal242 Posts
On October 10 2012 19:14 Aelendis wrote: What I've seen lately is that pros don't drone scout but instead check proxy locations with a drone. The explaination is that on almost every map, the first overlord is near the natural of the terran and can spot expansion timing. If there's no CC by 3:30, you can assume something cheesy is going on. 2 rax is definitely holdable without drone scout, because as I said, you know with your ovie it's coming. Proxy 2 rax is harder to defend, hence the drone check. Thanks. From what I saw in replays, with proxy 2 rax terran shows up a your natural with the 2 scvs and first marine at around 3:30, so the OL checking the expansion doesn't give you much ahead scouting for that. The drone checking proxy locations seems like a good alternative, if you find it early you can fight it far away from your base. I guess I have to study proxy locations for the various maps Another question: is 2rax proxy possible in 4spawn location maps like Antiga? | ||
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Aelendis
Belgium892 Posts
It's not really possible, although, they can build raxes in the middle of the map and proxy from there, but they still have to find your base, so don't worry too much, there are no good chances of a proxy on antiga, since he would be much more weaker. Also, if you find the proxy raxes being built, attack the scv building it with your drone. If you can delay the rax or even kill the scv, it's a huge advantage. You don't have to fight it far away from your base, I would even say that's a bad idea, since you can have reinforcement and spines when you're near your base. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
On October 10 2012 15:35 sCCrooked wrote: I'm gonna have to disagree with you there 6x. I'm also mid-masters and I find the vast majority of the map pool to be virtually unplayable since I'm facing 1500+ masters now on ladder. They can just exploit the map imbalances too well. Antiga they can freaking hit my third from their main base. Not to mention problems taking a 4th and holding it against a decent opponent. Entombed close positions is retarded. Even pros just all-in when they see it happen. Also its ridiculously easy for P to do say... a 1 gate triple nexus build on that map. No matter what you do unless you went like 3 hatch before pool, you'll be behind them. If you try to pressure, they just sim city and park their army in the middle where the rocks used to be. T can also establish a ridiculously fast 3 bases while you still have to worry about things like bunkers or cannons so you can't do the only builds possible that could put you on even ground with such greed. Shakuras... don't get me started on how hard it is to hold your third when T and P can just drop stuff onto the other main above it (or put air stuff up there where you can't hit). Also Ts can use that rocked-in area to do a tank/MMM push that's damn near unstoppable. Also T can use 3 bunkers at your natural that create a perfect sim city you can't break. They just sit behind them and repair them while you can't actually get anything but queens to attack them. Unless you create a bunch of spines and put yourself way behind, its really dangerous. If you DO put down the necessary spines, they just salvage the bunkers and move back to their base. Condemned I thought was ok but I do have trouble if a T does say a double drop on that ledge. It becomes difficult unless you spread creep up there via overlord pooping it or something and spine/spore it up. Also its huge size makes it problematic much like Metropolis in that it encourages incredibly stale split-map play. Ever try holding 6-7 bases on that map while they have 17+ warpgates 3 warp prisms running around dt tech and a mothership deathball in the middle? I also have issues with TDA just because of the rampless ZvZ. I hate it slightly less than the others I've mentioned so far though. I also slightly hate Cloud Kingdom just because of facing Immo/Sentry on it. Other than those complaints though, I do try to compensate for the map imbalances and tricks that T and P can get away with because of the designs. Its just really really sad that compensating for poor maps that comprise almost the entire pool is considered "just something you have to deal with" though. i agree with you. i even have some gripes with ohana as well. i don't mind ling bane wars on TDA though. warp prisms with speed lategame... i never have enough spines. i used to think this mappool was awesome, but now i'm growing a bit weary. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On October 10 2012 19:26 Azoryen wrote: Thanks. From what I saw in replays, with proxy 2 rax terran shows up a your natural with the 2 scvs and first marine at around 3:30, so the OL checking the expansion doesn't give you much ahead scouting for that. The drone checking proxy locations seems like a good alternative, if you find it early you can fight it far away from your base. I guess I have to study proxy locations for the various maps Another question: is 2rax proxy possible in 4spawn location maps like Antiga? On 4 player maps a common proxy location is in the center of the map. Terrans also like to hide barracks outside their base to scare the Zerg. | ||
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b0ub0u
Canada445 Posts
Assuming FFE, I keep hearing that food count at 8min should be around 60. Is this correct? How many drones should I have at that time? I am a passive player that always try to absorb the first attack and then turn aggressive from there. But with P it seems I am never able to survive that first attack. So basically at 8min I start unit production. Half lings and half roaches is good? Also +1 melee instead of ranged? What about infestors should I rush to them? From what I understand as soon as P secure third base I should aim for fourth base and do a spine wall and go to broods. It's like I can never even get to that stage. I also need to see the push moving out so I can engage in the middle of the map right? Sorry for the tons of questions. I am at a loss against P. I started to receive some coaching but any help from here would be appreciated as well! | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On October 11 2012 01:09 b0ub0u wrote: Unable to win in ZvP Platinum NA Assuming FFE, I keep hearing that food count at 8min should be around 60. Is this correct? How many drones should I have at that time? I am a passive player that always try to absorb the first attack and then turn aggressive from there. But with P it seems I am never able to survive that first attack. So basically at 8min I start unit production. Half lings and half roaches is good? Also +1 melee instead of ranged? What about infestors should I rush to them? From what I understand as soon as P secure third base I should aim for fourth base and do a spine wall and go to broods. It's like I can never even get to that stage. I also need to see the push moving out so I can engage in the middle of the map right? Sorry for the tons of questions. I am at a loss against P. I started to receive some coaching but any help from here would be appreciated as well! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038 Take a look at this guide. You should definitely be around 60 supply at 8:00, not less. Usually 4-6 lings, a few queens, and rest drones. The most important thing however is scouting what protoss is doing. You can't just say 'make roaches at 8:00' when you haven't got a clue which all in he is using, or if he is expanding. If he's expanding and you're getting roaches, you're delaying your own tech. Anyway definitely read the link I posted; especially the following parts: Scouting the Protoss Identifying the Build How to React Please post more if you have any other questions or if I haven't been clear. | ||
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