EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 404
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Xanczor
United States254 Posts
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Xanczor
United States254 Posts
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On October 11 2012 18:28 joeyBanana wrote: Hey guys, i was watching Day9s Daily #512, which revolved around BO optimization for Zergs. For anyone, who didnt see it i will summarize it: He just said, dont ever, ever have idle larvae, have enough overlords and than follow your BO. Its a simple idea and works great, but it also puts up some questions for me (low master Z): 1. Is it reasonable to stick to this idea, when you got a good 2-Base saturation, or should you instead save your money for a 3rd, than go back to unit production ? 2. Or is it better, to still produce drones and overlords, until you got none larvae left and check your money after that production round and think about an expo, if you got 300. Since my ZvZ and ZvP Builds are pretty sharp and clear, i dont got any problems with this concept regarding this MUs. But considering my ZvT-Style (very oldschool Fast Lair on 2 Base with Mutas, securing my 3rd), im a little bit in trouble. I have like 60 drones on 2base, until my larvae runs out and i got enuff money to go for my 3rd. The saturation just doesnt seem very profitable for a long time, with so many drones on two base, although my money is too low for a 3rd. Maybe you can put up your thoughts ? TL:DR: When you play ZvT Fast Mutas do you expand when you reach 2-base saturation or do you expand when you got none Larvae left and enough money to expand ? I spend all my gas on mutas, and then all my minerals go to hatches/drones for as long as possible. Only make lings when you really have to or want to hit some sort of timing. You should be able to spend all your larva off of 2 base saturation unless you have a macro hatch anyway. If you're constantly harrassing with mutas and have good map coverage with overlords/lings then you don't need to make any more units. From here you can choose to spend your gas on either a bigger muta flock, or a switch to more upgrades and infestors. (a stylistic choice, but people have been favouring infestors for a while now. | ||
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Alex)
Scotland263 Posts
On October 11 2012 03:20 Corsica wrote: whats the best response to marine hellion with little marauders and medivacs? Depends how quick it is? I would think that that kind of push comes out when he is on 2 bases. I would have 4 to 6 queens (excluding the 3 that are at my main, nat and 3rd) by then on 3 base so queen, ling and bane. Target the medivacs with the queens. | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
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NL.Anonymous
Netherlands50 Posts
On October 12 2012 17:11 guitarizt wrote: Why don't any zergs patrol their ramp anymore on ladder? It seems like it'd be worth it if saves you from losing 1/10 games. Could you be a bit more specific? Are you talking about a specific match up as in ZvT or are you talking about it in general. And do you mean an early drone patrol to deny any bunker rushes or you mean lings in a later stage of the game??? | ||
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Veriol
Czech Republic502 Posts
On October 12 2012 17:11 guitarizt wrote: Why don't any zergs patrol their ramp anymore on ladder? It seems like it'd be worth it if saves you from losing 1/10 games. If you mean vs cannon wall/bunker wall. Its not needed unless you care about ladder conditions and play. For me I want improve on ladder and win in customs; so some cheeky pylon/bunker walls that work only on ladder dont really bother me and I just leave the game. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On October 12 2012 17:11 guitarizt wrote: Why don't any zergs patrol their ramp anymore on ladder? It seems like it'd be worth it if saves you from losing 1/10 games. Blizzard said they were going to do something about that in HoTS, so I don't even bother anymore and just leave those games, not worth playing. | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
On October 11 2012 17:56 akaMadMike wrote: Cant deal with Hellion/Thor/Banshee! Build Roaches and A-move harder. It is dead simple. As for the Banshees, the key I think is to not over react. I think you can get away with just having an overseer with your armies and having Queens. Banshees do low DPS to Roaches. | ||
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NL.Anonymous
Netherlands50 Posts
On October 12 2012 20:04 NarAliya wrote: Build Roaches and A-move harder. It is dead simple. As for the Banshees, the key I think is to not over react. I think you can get away with just having an overseer with your armies and having Queens. Banshees do low DPS to Roaches. Would love to see a replay that support your theory of amoving roaches into a pure mech army. In my opinon the key would be to get roaches out to defend any early pressure, but then tech to infestor/broodlord army while you try to keep harassing the terran to deny his eco, so you buy yourself more time before he pushes out with an inmense mech army. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
My new plan is (which leads to doubtful success) to get a third saturated before attacking. I see that I lack in some serious fields: - Too often I have idle larvae - ... even though I begin to miss injects in the mid-game - I sometimes stack 1000 minerals before I build a macro hatch - I cannot handle a hellion-thor army composition ever - I rarely ever build infestors at all, in any match-up I try to fix the idle larvae issue first and foremost, but I also feel that I open inefficient versus protoss. When I see a protoss pressuring or even all-inning me, I often get into panic mode to get those roaches out. In a recent game I was able to deflect an all-in with lings and spines only, even though I lost a large number of lings to zealots. The opponent gave up though, as I defeated his army. Am I on the right track here, to worry less about the correct unit and to accept ineffcient fights if it allows me to stay on tier 1 a bit longer to build more drones? Is it viable to open roachless versus protoss (and maybe invest in an early +1 armor upgrade) even though lings are useless versus colossi later on? | ||
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kiklion
99 Posts
On October 12 2012 21:05 GFwarbringer wrote: Would love to see a replay that support your theory of amoving roaches into a pure mech army. In my opinon the key would be to get roaches out to defend any early pressure, but then tech to infestor/broodlord army while you try to keep harassing the terran to deny his eco, so you buy yourself more time before he pushes out with an inmense mech army. Hellion/Thor/Banshee is not that powerful against pure roaches (spread creep/Queens/few infestors for banshees). You probably wouldn't win with just A moving as hellions would tank damage and repair would counter the spread damage, but you can win with a 90% roach comp. Hellions just aren't effective against roaches and thors aren't great either. Assuming 1 gas = 2 minerals, a thors has 500 hp for 700 minerals whereas a roach has 145 for 125. The extra damage in the thor also doesn't mean much as it still take 3 volleys to kill a roach, giving it a lot of overkill. The real mech unit that makes mass roach not work is the tank, if they aren't building tanks then mass roach can work. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On October 12 2012 21:22 [F_]aths wrote: I am still a silver-level EU zerg who wants to get to the gold league. My new plan is (which leads to doubtful success) to get a third saturated before attacking. I see that I lack in some serious fields: - Too often I have idle larvae - ... even though I begin to miss injects in the mid-game - I sometimes stack 1000 minerals before I build a macro hatch - I cannot handle a hellion-thor army composition ever - I rarely ever build infestors at all, in any match-up I try to fix the idle larvae issue first and foremost, but I also feel that I open inefficient versus protoss. When I see a protoss pressuring or even all-inning me, I often get into panic mode to get those roaches out. In a recent game I was able to deflect an all-in with lings and spines only, even though I lost a large number of lings to zealots. The opponent gave up though, as I defeated his army. Am I on the right track here, to worry less about the correct unit and to accept ineffcient fights if it allows me to stay on tier 1 a bit longer to build more drones? Is it viable to open roachless versus protoss (and maybe invest in an early +1 armor upgrade) even though lings are useless versus colossi later on? Just worry about getting a ton of drones. If you get allined or cheesed. GG, leave the game, scratch you nose, stretch and queue up the next game. Expect to lose games. As you get experience you will get better at not dying. As for your other questions. Yes, you are on the right track with a fast saturated third base. The efficiency of Roaches are not your problem, macro is your problem. On a whole you will have more macro success opening roach than ling just because they cost more money and less larva which leaves you with more larva for drones. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On October 12 2012 22:50 MstrJinbo wrote: Just worry about getting a ton of drones. If you get allined or cheesed. GG, leave the game, scratch you nose, stretch and queue up the next game. Expect to lose games. As you get experience you will get better at not dying. As for your other questions. Yes, you are on the right track with a fast saturated third base. The efficiency of Roaches are not your problem, macro is your problem. On a whole you will have more macro success opening roach than ling just because they cost more money and less larva which leaves you with more larva for drones. Stupid advice. You do want to drone hard, but just saying 'oh all in? What a noob, I'll just leave game' no, try scouting the protoss to gain advice on what to do. Place an overlord near his base, and see what units he's moving out with. Mostly stalker? Get more lings. Are there a bunch of zealots? Get roaches, and kite his zealots. Once roaches are out against a mostly zealot army you've basically won the game. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On October 12 2012 23:10 Henk wrote: Stupid advice. You do want to drone hard, but just saying 'oh all in? What a noob, I'll just leave game' no, try scouting the protoss to gain advice on what to do. Place an overlord near his base, and see what units he's moving out with. Mostly stalker? Get more lings. Are there a bunch of zealots? Get roaches, and kite his zealots. Once roaches are out against a mostly zealot army you've basically won the game. For the record I'm not advocating rage quitting if you get allined or not scouting. All I'm saying is to focus on building a lot of drones. At some point it is not about winning of losing it is getting comfortable with making a ton of drones early on in the game. From the posters question it doesn't sound like he's used to making enough drones. | ||
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ShamW0W
160 Posts
On October 12 2012 21:22 [F_]aths wrote: I am still a silver-level EU zerg who wants to get to the gold league. My new plan is (which leads to doubtful success) to get a third saturated before attacking. I see that I lack in some serious fields: - Too often I have idle larvae - ... even though I begin to miss injects in the mid-game - I sometimes stack 1000 minerals before I build a macro hatch - I cannot handle a hellion-thor army composition ever - I rarely ever build infestors at all, in any match-up I try to fix the idle larvae issue first and foremost, but I also feel that I open inefficient versus protoss. When I see a protoss pressuring or even all-inning me, I often get into panic mode to get those roaches out. In a recent game I was able to deflect an all-in with lings and spines only, even though I lost a large number of lings to zealots. The opponent gave up though, as I defeated his army. Am I on the right track here, to worry less about the correct unit and to accept ineffcient fights if it allows me to stay on tier 1 a bit longer to build more drones? Is it viable to open roachless versus protoss (and maybe invest in an early +1 armor upgrade) even though lings are useless versus colossi later on? It depends what you see. Against Protoss the biggest thing you can do is scout so that you understand what is coming from him. Here are some hopefully simple tips that you can work on to improve scouting vs. Protoss who FFE: #1: Keep an eye on their forge early. Is it researching? Is it being chrono'd? If this is yes then expect some form of early pressure. #2: Keep a ling on the location of where their 3rd would be taken. If they're not taking their 3rd until very late expect a large 2-base push and prepare. #3: Sacrifice an Overlord at 7 minutes. This one is key. You'll need to have an Overlord in decent position to send him into the Protoss base at 7 minutes. This will help you identify his tech choice which is usually either Robo, DTs, Stargate, or Blink. #4: How many gasses has the Protoss taken? - If 2, Early Zealot pressure is coming. Get a spine up on your 3rd and start getting lings out. Build your Roach Warren no later than 7 minutes. Scout for forward pylons. - If 3, make sure you start your evo chamber by 7 minutes. 3 Gas is most likely Zealot pressure with some tech on the back-end (DT or Stargate). If you sacrifice your Overlord at 7 minutes you'll have the information you need to react accordingly. If somehow you don't see the tech structure, I'd build at least 2 spores anyways, 1 at your nat and 1 at your 3rd. - If you see 4 Gas, Drone until 8 minutes. You can make a few defensive lings but in general this is a tech heavy approach by the Protoss. Your 7 minute Overlord scout will let you know if he's preparing some large all-in or if he's teching to defend an early 3rd. If you start focusing on these small scouting techniques you'll begin gaining more awareness against Protoss and start to understand what they're trying to do to beat you. The next step after that is applying the appropriate strategy for beating what they're doing but hopefully you've got some ideas on counter units there.  If you need extra help, this guide should be useful: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=368282 | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
I get forcefielded away and then killed. Any advice? | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On October 13 2012 00:04 Zorkmid wrote: I'm having a huge amount of trouble holding off Protoss 2 base aggression. Mostly the kind with 3-4 immortals and a few sentries. I can't ever seem to save my third, and just don't seem to have enough units out. I have around 60 drones when most of these attacks hit. I usually have ling/roach at the time of the attack, and infestors JUST starting to come out. I get forcefielded away and then killed. Any advice? Don't go infestors when a sentry-immortal all in is coming; they won't be out in time. Stay on ling-roach, with mostly lings. You'll want 10-20 roaches at max to snipe key units, but not more. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On October 13 2012 00:52 Defenestrator wrote: What is the standard timing on 3rd and 4th gas for gateway/non-gateway pressure in zvp for protoss? I was playing a toss who got 3rd and 4th gas at around 7:00, and so I assumed a tech build, but then faced some 5 gate pressure. Almost all toss builds take 3rd and 4th gas somewhere around 7unless they're doing a heavy zealot gate push or something. Watch the gas before 6:30. If they take both at around 6min, you can expect a tech build such as sentry-immortal or maybe blink stalker +2 all in. (Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think I'm right) | ||
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