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On October 14 2012 12:27 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 11:58 6xFPCs wrote:On October 14 2012 03:31 smOOthMayDie wrote:I'm losing late game ZvT Mass thor/viking vs Infestor/ling/broodlord and a few tanks + BFH. Here's the replay. http://drop.sc/264241Not sure what I couldve done :/, more corrupters? I don't know. I feel like more corrupters wouldnt have helped vs the vikings, and thors seem to eat broods alive. ;-; You have the worst anti-mech play I've ever seen. You had the composition I use against bio (ling infestor BL), which of course melts to mech. So read very carefully, because you did not do a single thing correctly this game. You don't drone up your third and fourth when you take it, and you NEVER actually put drones in your 7th and 8th gases. You basically played 3 base ling infestor against 3 base mech. He was a full upgrade ahead of you at all times, your 1-1 started AFTER he had finished 1-1. You fell behind in workers at 48, because 2 hellions (not blueflame until 20+minutes in, btw) scared you so much you did not build drones at your third. So you have 2 base econ vs 3OC at that poin. Eventually it gets to the point where he has 4 base 8 gas, you have 3 base 6 gas. You end up down on supply, 109-120, while banking 2k+ minerals, at (I think) 12min. You got outmacro'd, and you sat back and let it happen. Expand, spine up--2k minerals is two bases with four spines and full gas saturation (12 drones). You don't understand roach play against mech, clearly shown in your discussion with your opponent at the end of the game. YOU NEED ROACHES AGAINST MECH. it's not to stop a mech timing attack, it's to actually fight mech and trade out his thors. You need roaches. It's like you know actually, literally nothing about fighting mech. You also sent out a squad of BLs to die. No support at all, just by themselves. That's the cardinal sin of zerg lategame right there. You don't drop infested terrans with your infestors after fungals, so a lot of them die with full energy. You clump your BLs against the thors. You don't remax as you lose units. You let him walk up and siege on top of your fourth. You fully commit with your army before forcing an unsiege via broodlings. No part of the engagement was done correctly. Summary: Your macro was bad. You had the wrong composition. You didn't keep up with macro (expos, droning new expos). You engaged terribly. You need roaches. Your upgrades were way behind. You didn't deny planetaries from going down. You summed it up perfectly ^^ Watching the replay I was squirming at the mistakes. Ended up being too lazy to write it up  I'm not convinced fast broodlords are the way to play against mech, and you state that roaches are necessary. I agree, and next game I play against mech I'll do huge roach+drops aggression. Here's a question I have for people: Do you think it's a good idea to do super heavy midgame aggression? I'm about a mid-masters Zerg, and always played the most heavy macro, non-aggressive style out there. You know, ling/infestor into fast broodlords, standard stuff. However, I played a few games and did a standard roach/ling max but w/ drops against Protoss, and it was SO much fun! Instead of turtling and hoping I didn't make a mistake, I was doing multipronged drops and runbys, sniping tech + probes while simultaneously macroing. It was amazing, and in the end I had to baserace and won. It delays hive + tech, but it's so much more fun. But it's an all-in, so it seems like a "bad" style to play... In ZvT, a similar concept would be huge muta/ling/bane aggression, with no intention of getting a hive. It's really effective and really fun, but is also very "all-in". Is it reasonable to do such styles? Some pros do it, but people say that the standard Zerg play is to turtle to hive + infestors, and anything else is cheesy/all-in. Will I hit a skill cap with this style? I can't believe so, considering Life/DRG/Nestea/other top pro Zergs have effectively ended games against macro play by using muta/ling/bane timings (2/2 speedbane mostly).
I don't think BLs are worth much against mech except to force an unsiege so that roaches can paint everything vomit-green. ultras do well if you have a macro lead anyway, but I'd rather not let thor dps skyrocket by giving them big single units to target. the main thing i'd emphasize is the 3-3 upgrades, they are absolutely golden against mech.
I think midgame aggression is pretty important zvt, otherwise you let them get away with cheap, flimsy walls and late tanks. 2-2 bane bust will cripple them if you outmacro'd them or defended well against hellion banshee.
zvp-size, I think it's nice because deathballs are still difficult to handle (though it's probably easier for you zvp specialists out there), and drops gives you an option to use those otherwise useless roaches in the midgame and late midgame.
I would opine that it's mainly a way to convert an earlier advantage into a midgame win, or safeguard an econ advantage against a potentially punishing timing. While I appreciate the whole "zerg BL+infestor is king of kings" mindset, I would never argue that you always have to play to lategame.
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On October 14 2012 13:29 whatevername wrote:
I go heavy muta ling bane aggression zvt [same level as you] and despite all the platitudes about how its outdated I smash terrans with little to no effort. Maybe its down somewhat to the meta game, half the time when I get mutas out they have 3 bases a helion a banshee and nothing else. If the style is indeed less effective at top masters/gm, who cares? It can be one style to learn, have fun with, and keep in your mind. Its quite possible due to maps it will swing back and be 'the' thing.
ZVP aggression: Filter in some infestor drops it can force an allin *very* easily, and with that kind of trading style infestors work bloody wonders.
Dont let others dictate you how to play the game. If you find it fun and you can make it work do it.
Agreed. BTW, Life did this against Taeja in 2 games out of 3 in his 3-0 to reach the finals of GSL this season.
Even if you argue that Life capitalized on Taeja's mistakes, just the fact that he chose to go muta/ling/bane in such a high-profile MU tells how strong the style can be, and that it is NOT outdated.
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On October 14 2012 12:27 Mavvie wrote:
Here's a question I have for people:
Do you think it's a good idea to do super heavy midgame aggression? I'm about a mid-masters Zerg, and always played the most heavy macro, non-aggressive style out there. You know, ling/infestor into fast broodlords, standard stuff. However, I played a few games and did a standard roach/ling max but w/ drops against Protoss, and it was SO much fun! Instead of turtling and hoping I didn't make a mistake, I was doing multipronged drops and runbys, sniping tech + probes while simultaneously macroing. It was amazing, and in the end I had to baserace and won. It delays hive + tech, but it's so much more fun. But it's an all-in, so it seems like a "bad" style to play...
In ZvT, a similar concept would be huge muta/ling/bane aggression, with no intention of getting a hive. It's really effective and really fun, but is also very "all-in".
Is it reasonable to do such styles? Some pros do it, but people say that the standard Zerg play is to turtle to hive + infestors, and anything else is cheesy/all-in. Will I hit a skill cap with this style? I can't believe so, considering Life/DRG/Nestea/other top pro Zergs have effectively ended games against macro play by using muta/ling/bane timings (2/2 speedbane mostly).
Sup Mavvie =)
I think it's very doable, and I think the most skill required in this game is to be aggressive with multipronged attacks while expanding and keeping up your macro. Just pure macro is relatively easy compared to the multitasking required for attacking + macro, and you see this reflected in many pro styles (see Life, for example).
Coming up with a style that is very drop-heavy/harass-heavy while teching is tough as zerg, and is one of the most difficult styles to pull off correctly while being safe vs timings. Infestor/BL straight-tech while defending is much easier to do, though probably safer.
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Hey guys, im a Platnium zerg and atm in EVERY match up, when the opponent goes air i just die.. ZvP i go mass queen, ZvZ i go spores and turtle untill infestors and in ZvT i go spores and tech to infestors quickly but i just die so easy when they go air.. any help? Thank you
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On October 15 2012 00:01 LucoxP wrote:
Hey guys, im a Platnium zerg and atm in EVERY match up, when the opponent goes air i just die.. ZvP i go mass queen, ZvZ i go spores and turtle untill infestors and in ZvT i go spores and tech to infestors quickly but i just die so easy when they go air.. any help? Thank you
Replays?
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Hello everybody! I am a diamond player who have just switched to Z from P and I have no idea when to be taking my gases in ZvT. I have been doing hatch first and then transitioning into zergling/infestor and only getting banes if I see some sort of aggresion coming. I guess what I am wondering is:Is there a bette way to play ZvT other than ling/infestor? And when do I take my gases?
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On October 15 2012 01:25 KevJang wrote:
Hello everybody! I am a diamond player who have just switched to Z from P and I have no idea when to be taking my gases in ZvT. I have been doing hatch first and then transitioning into zergling/infestor and only getting banes if I see some sort of aggresion coming. I guess what I am wondering is:Is there a bette way to play ZvT other than ling/infestor? And when do I take my gases?
Ok so this is the typical hatch first bo.
15 Hatch, 17 Pool, 17 Overlord, 2x queens plus the extra larva from the expansion should bump you to 23 supply. Around now is standard to get your 1st gas. Before 22-23 Gas is better if you want to do Bane/Roach All-in. Then overlord at 25.
Afterwards try to get your 3rd started before 7-8mins unless you want to do a 2-base style play.
I personally like to make at least 2 extra queens for creep spread + defense against the more common Hellion +Banshee styles. Ling + Festor is good , that is the most common used nowadays. Other than all-in different standard is 2-base Spire.
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Terran players often take their 2nd much later than the pros and same for protoss players taking their 3rd.
I usually react by delaying my 3rd until terran takes his natural or my 4th until protoss takes his 3rd.
Is this correct?
I mean, I don't mind leading 5-3 in bases, but 3-1 or 4-2 seems risky, do you feel the same or are there exceptions for this?
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On October 15 2012 03:30 Azoryen wrote:
Terran players often take their 2nd much later than the pros and same for protoss players taking their 3rd.
I usually react by delaying my 3rd until terran takes his natural or my 4th until protoss takes his 3rd.
Is this correct?
I mean, I don't mind leading 5-3 in bases, but 3-1 or 4-2 seems risky, do you feel the same or are there exceptions for this?
You need to scout a Terran. If you're getting 4-7 rax'd, you need 2 spines and no third. Don't take your third until he takes his natural. If no natural by 5:30, shit brix. Overlord sac at 30, count marines. 3:00=1 marine, 1 more per rax every 30 seconds after (approx)
Basically if there's 5 marines shooting your overlord at 4:30, it's not 1rax FE, not 2rax (he isnt at your base with marines), so it's a 3-7 rax. 2 spines + 4 queens + reactive lings is all it takes to hold this.
I digress. You're correct, stay one base ahead but not 2. Only exception is in zvp:
I like to take my fourth hatch at 8:30 at my fourth unless I'm getting hit with a gateway timing. It delays later 2 base all ins, and puts you in a good spot if he takes a 9:00-10:00 third.
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On October 15 2012 03:35 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 03:30 Azoryen wrote:
Terran players often take their 2nd much later than the pros and same for protoss players taking their 3rd.
I usually react by delaying my 3rd until terran takes his natural or my 4th until protoss takes his 3rd.
Is this correct?
I mean, I don't mind leading 5-3 in bases, but 3-1 or 4-2 seems risky, do you feel the same or are there exceptions for this? You need to scout a Terran. If you're getting 4-7 rax'd, you need 2 spines and no third. Don't take your third until he takes his natural. If no natural by 5:30, shit brix. Overlord sac at 30, count marines. 3:00=1 marine, 1 more per rax every 30 seconds after (approx) Basically if there's 5 marines shooting your overlord at 4:30, it's not 1rax FE, not 2rax (he isnt at your base with marines), so it's a 3-7 rax. 2 spines + 4 queens + reactive lings is all it takes to hold this. I digress. You're correct, stay one base ahead but not 2. Only exception is in zvp: I like to take my fourth hatch at 8:30 at my fourth unless I'm getting hit with a gateway timing. It delays later 2 base all ins, and puts you in a good spot if he takes a 9:00-10:00 third.
I don't mind you digressing at all! That marine count is a nice trick, because that way you always get some information even if they kill the ovie before you see anything else  .
The only 'problem' I have with him not expanding when supposed to is that it messes my build a little.
I start banking resources and not sure what to do.
If I make units, he may just expand later and it feels like a waste. If I tech, he can attack and kill me.
When I sac the ovie, I sometimes read him for an all-in that doesn't come and I make a ton of lings and feel I could be much more ahead if they were drones. And I'm not sure if he's just making a larger army before attacking or if he's not attacking at all.
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Hi guys, low masters level zerg player here.
I have a general question regarding ZvP: How do i properly react when I scout a gate opening instead of a FFE with my first overlord.
I know I have to instantly grab an extractor to mine 100 gas for speed and not take a third that fast in order to survive 1-base all-ins.
But I feel quite unsecure about the further game if he expands instead of all-in and I am not sure how far this influences the common timings.
When can I safely take my third? When should I start mining gas again and take additional extractors? When do I put down roach warren and evo? When should I sac an overlord into his main? What do his gas-timings tell me? I mean for example you can't tell that there is a gateway all-in coming, if there are no gasses at the natural at about 6:30, can you?
Thanks in advance
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On October 15 2012 03:39 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 03:35 Mavvie wrote:On October 15 2012 03:30 Azoryen wrote:
Terran players often take their 2nd much later than the pros and same for protoss players taking their 3rd.
I usually react by delaying my 3rd until terran takes his natural or my 4th until protoss takes his 3rd.
Is this correct?
I mean, I don't mind leading 5-3 in bases, but 3-1 or 4-2 seems risky, do you feel the same or are there exceptions for this? You need to scout a Terran. If you're getting 4-7 rax'd, you need 2 spines and no third. Don't take your third until he takes his natural. If no natural by 5:30, shit brix. Overlord sac at 30, count marines. 3:00=1 marine, 1 more per rax every 30 seconds after (approx) Basically if there's 5 marines shooting your overlord at 4:30, it's not 1rax FE, not 2rax (he isnt at your base with marines), so it's a 3-7 rax. 2 spines + 4 queens + reactive lings is all it takes to hold this. I digress. You're correct, stay one base ahead but not 2. Only exception is in zvp: I like to take my fourth hatch at 8:30 at my fourth unless I'm getting hit with a gateway timing. It delays later 2 base all ins, and puts you in a good spot if he takes a 9:00-10:00 third. I don't mind you digressing at all! That marine count is a nice trick, because that way you always get some information even if they kill the ovie before you see anything else . The only 'problem' I have with him not expanding when supposed to is that it messes my build a little. I start banking resources and not sure what to do. If I make units, he may just expand later and it feels like a waste. If I tech, he can attack and kill me.
Haha awesome
Replays would be nice. What do you mean not expanding when he's supposed to? Does he build a CC in base with a 1rax FE? Or do you mean like he does a 2rax pressure expand (which is actually done in a lot of pro games, usually followed by a double expand), or do you mean like a really defensive build?
You really just have to be on top of your scouting. If you determine he's going reactor hellion (gas first or rax->gas, scout either a reactor or factory), I'd recommend a 6 queen opener so you can take your third and get stupidly far ahead. If he's doing some kind of mass marine expand, you're fine.
I'm being a bit vague here. Basically, keep making drones on x+1 bases (x is his # bases), until he leaves his base. Get a spine or two if you feel it necessary, and getting 1 gas for ling speed is always nice against 1 base play. I actually open 15h/16p/18gas pulling out at 100 gas against Terran just to shut down hellion play as well as most bio timings, as well as force him to turtle + play defensive (I could do a roach/bane bust for all he knows). Drone up, survive any timings, stay one base ahead. It's okay to take it later. If you're on 2 bases and he's still on one by the time you're at ~36 drones, I recommend preparing for everything. If you suspect a 4gate, get lings, 2port banshee/DTs/voidrays, just prepare for everything. One base builds are really bad against Zerg, 2 base timings are fairly weak. If he's delaying his expansions so much, you're already ahead as long as you drone reasonably well
It also never hurts to get ling speed + baneling tech before lair/evos against a 1 base Terran, highly recommended.
Edit: This is a really cool + fun game I played on ladder against a really closely matched opponent. I recommend watching for fun + to learn about a ~10-15 mutalisk fast hive strategy that's awesome on Antiga Shipyard
I also defend a 4rax that I semi-scouted: http://drop.sc/264582
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On October 15 2012 03:47 CommanderS wrote:
Hi guys, low masters level zerg player here.
I have a general question regarding ZvP: How do i properly react when I scout a gate opening instead of a FFE with my first overlord.
I know I have to instantly grab an extractor to mine 100 gas for speed and not take a third that fast in order to survive 1-base all-ins.
But I feel quite unsecure about the further game if he expands instead of all-in and I am not sure how far this influences the common timings.
When can I safely take my third? When should I start mining gas again and take additional extractors? When do I put down roach warren and evo? When should I sac an overlord into his main? What do his gas-timings tell me? I mean for example you can't tell that there is a gateway all-in coming, if there are no gasses at the natural at about 6:30, can you?
Thanks in advance
I'll answer this as best I can, info might not be 100% accurate, sorry in advance.
IMO, a gateway opener delays both players by about 1 minute. Once you rule out a gateway all in (4gate really), take your third. At ~4:45 start a spine crawler, be actively scouting. No expansion by 5:30? It's a 1 base all in, or a DT expand. Try to get a good count on his gas. Don't be afraid to sacrifice an overlord at 30 supply to scout what he's doing. 1 gas no expand = 4gate, 1 gas expand = 1g1assim FE (ling speed and you're fine).
Take your third around 5:00, roach warren when you feel you need it. Gas timings are a less effective way to scout Protoss that gateway expand IMO. Overlords + speedling pokes are the way to go. If you see sentries, immortals, and a forge researching, expect a 2 base all in. If you see any tech, you aren't getting hit with a gateway timing, so you can drone up your third fully. It then plays out fairly standard. I'd say get a 6:30 roach warren if you fear a 6gate, just like you normally would, because you can defend with speedlings (no forge = no +1 = zergling good unit).
Evo at 7:00 should be fine if he expands, otherwise get it around 6:00. Try to deny proxy pylons with speedlings.
Start mining gas again when you need it. If he isn't doing a gateway timing I'd delay gas to 7:00 to get more drones out, otherwise I'd mine gas around 6:00-6:30. Roach warren timings reflect this too. Gateway timings are obvious, as he'll have no tech, no natural gas (6:30-7:00 is good timing I guess), and an overlord sac will see...you guessed it, a ton of gates.
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On October 15 2012 03:52 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 03:39 Azoryen wrote:On October 15 2012 03:35 Mavvie wrote:On October 15 2012 03:30 Azoryen wrote:
Terran players often take their 2nd much later than the pros and same for protoss players taking their 3rd.
I usually react by delaying my 3rd until terran takes his natural or my 4th until protoss takes his 3rd.
Is this correct?
I mean, I don't mind leading 5-3 in bases, but 3-1 or 4-2 seems risky, do you feel the same or are there exceptions for this? You need to scout a Terran. If you're getting 4-7 rax'd, you need 2 spines and no third. Don't take your third until he takes his natural. If no natural by 5:30, shit brix. Overlord sac at 30, count marines. 3:00=1 marine, 1 more per rax every 30 seconds after (approx) Basically if there's 5 marines shooting your overlord at 4:30, it's not 1rax FE, not 2rax (he isnt at your base with marines), so it's a 3-7 rax. 2 spines + 4 queens + reactive lings is all it takes to hold this. I digress. You're correct, stay one base ahead but not 2. Only exception is in zvp: I like to take my fourth hatch at 8:30 at my fourth unless I'm getting hit with a gateway timing. It delays later 2 base all ins, and puts you in a good spot if he takes a 9:00-10:00 third. I don't mind you digressing at all! That marine count is a nice trick, because that way you always get some information even if they kill the ovie before you see anything else . The only 'problem' I have with him not expanding when supposed to is that it messes my build a little. I start banking resources and not sure what to do. If I make units, he may just expand later and it feels like a waste. If I tech, he can attack and kill me. Haha awesome Replays would be nice. What do you mean not expanding when he's supposed to? Does he build a CC in base with a 1rax FE? Or do you mean like he does a 2rax pressure expand (which is actually done in a lot of pro games, usually followed by a double expand), or do you mean like a really defensive build? You really just have to be on top of your scouting. If you determine he's going reactor hellion (gas first or rax->gas, scout either a reactor or factory), I'd recommend a 6 queen opener so you can take your third and get stupidly far ahead. If he's doing some kind of mass marine expand, you're fine. I'm being a bit vague here. Basically, keep making drones on x+1 bases (x is his # bases), until he leaves his base. Get a spine or two if you feel it necessary, and getting 1 gas for ling speed is always nice against 1 base play. I actually open 15h/16p/18gas pulling out at 100 gas against Terran just to shut down hellion play as well as most bio timings, as well as force him to turtle + play defensive (I could do a roach/bane bust for all he knows). Drone up, survive any timings, stay one base ahead. It's okay to take it later. If you're on 2 bases and he's still on one by the time you're at ~36 drones, I recommend preparing for everything. If you suspect a 4gate, get lings, 2port banshee/DTs/voidrays, just prepare for everything. One base builds are really bad against Zerg, 2 base timings are fairly weak. If he's delaying his expansions so much, you're already ahead as long as you drone reasonably well It also never hurts to get ling speed + baneling tech before lair/evos against a 1 base Terran, highly recommended.
At low leagues builds are not as clear, nor are timings, unit compositions, etc.
I know it sounds absurd, but it's like when in poker people say fish sometimes are harder to read than pros.
What I feel is that they can attack me with any random combination of units from raxes, factory and starport.
I sometimes even feel that sacking the OL is a bit of a waste.
I'm scared of doing what you say: only build units when he moves out. In low leagues people move out with larger and later armies. If I just spent my round of larva in drones when my ling at his ramp get's killed, I'm in trouble.
A similar situation is a protoss turtling in 2 bases. I may prepare for all those pro timings and all he's doing is maxing to 200/200 (or to 160? or to 140?) from 2 bases before he moves out. I know this is bad play by him, but it get's hard to determine when he's moving out and what to do in the meantime: tech, army, eco?
I'm trying to have a general rule for these situations, but maybe there isn't one, it's too circumstancial.
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On October 15 2012 04:08 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 03:52 Mavvie wrote:On October 15 2012 03:39 Azoryen wrote:On October 15 2012 03:35 Mavvie wrote:On October 15 2012 03:30 Azoryen wrote:
Terran players often take their 2nd much later than the pros and same for protoss players taking their 3rd.
I usually react by delaying my 3rd until terran takes his natural or my 4th until protoss takes his 3rd.
Is this correct?
I mean, I don't mind leading 5-3 in bases, but 3-1 or 4-2 seems risky, do you feel the same or are there exceptions for this? You need to scout a Terran. If you're getting 4-7 rax'd, you need 2 spines and no third. Don't take your third until he takes his natural. If no natural by 5:30, shit brix. Overlord sac at 30, count marines. 3:00=1 marine, 1 more per rax every 30 seconds after (approx) Basically if there's 5 marines shooting your overlord at 4:30, it's not 1rax FE, not 2rax (he isnt at your base with marines), so it's a 3-7 rax. 2 spines + 4 queens + reactive lings is all it takes to hold this. I digress. You're correct, stay one base ahead but not 2. Only exception is in zvp: I like to take my fourth hatch at 8:30 at my fourth unless I'm getting hit with a gateway timing. It delays later 2 base all ins, and puts you in a good spot if he takes a 9:00-10:00 third. I don't mind you digressing at all! That marine count is a nice trick, because that way you always get some information even if they kill the ovie before you see anything else . The only 'problem' I have with him not expanding when supposed to is that it messes my build a little. I start banking resources and not sure what to do. If I make units, he may just expand later and it feels like a waste. If I tech, he can attack and kill me. Haha awesome Replays would be nice. What do you mean not expanding when he's supposed to? Does he build a CC in base with a 1rax FE? Or do you mean like he does a 2rax pressure expand (which is actually done in a lot of pro games, usually followed by a double expand), or do you mean like a really defensive build? You really just have to be on top of your scouting. If you determine he's going reactor hellion (gas first or rax->gas, scout either a reactor or factory), I'd recommend a 6 queen opener so you can take your third and get stupidly far ahead. If he's doing some kind of mass marine expand, you're fine. I'm being a bit vague here. Basically, keep making drones on x+1 bases (x is his # bases), until he leaves his base. Get a spine or two if you feel it necessary, and getting 1 gas for ling speed is always nice against 1 base play. I actually open 15h/16p/18gas pulling out at 100 gas against Terran just to shut down hellion play as well as most bio timings, as well as force him to turtle + play defensive (I could do a roach/bane bust for all he knows). Drone up, survive any timings, stay one base ahead. It's okay to take it later. If you're on 2 bases and he's still on one by the time you're at ~36 drones, I recommend preparing for everything. If you suspect a 4gate, get lings, 2port banshee/DTs/voidrays, just prepare for everything. One base builds are really bad against Zerg, 2 base timings are fairly weak. If he's delaying his expansions so much, you're already ahead as long as you drone reasonably well It also never hurts to get ling speed + baneling tech before lair/evos against a 1 base Terran, highly recommended. At low leagues builds are not as clear, nor are timings, unit compositions, etc. I know it sounds absurd, but it's like when in poker people say fish sometimes are harder to read than pros. What I feel is that they can attack me with any combinations of units from raxes, factory and starport. I sometimes even feel that sacking the OL is a bit of a waste. I'm scared of doing what you say: only build units when he moves out. In low leagues people move out with larger and later armies. If I just spent my round of larva in drones when my ling at his ramp get's killed, I'm in trouble. A similar situation is a protoss turtling in 2 bases. I may prepare for all those pro timings and all he's doing is maxing to 200/200 (or to 160? or to 140?) from 2 bases before he moves out. I know this is bad play by him, but it get's hard to determine when he's moving out and what to do in the meantime: tech, army, eco? I'm trying to have a general rule for these situations, but maybe there isn't one, it's too circumstancial.
That means they miss the timing, simple as that
You can even go 2 base macro hatch lair, getting lair around 50 supply, so you have the extra larvae in case he moves out. 1 base all ins get weaker every second that he doesn't move out. A bigger army won't matter if your production has caught up to a point where you can outclass him. If he lets you get to 2 base saturation before he expands, you've won the game. You can keep 6-8 lings at home, hotkeyed, to morph into banes if he moves out late (ling speed -> bane nest -> lair -> double evo if he expands). Trust me, 8 banes + reactive speedlings will demolish any 1 base army, even a 1-1-1 rine/tank/banshee all-in. Overlord sacs are always worth it. Barracks w/ tech lab researching? Stim or CS timing. Factory w/ TL researching? Probably tanks, possibly a BFH all in if he has another fact w/ reactor. Starport w/ TL? Banshee. Researching upgrade? Cloakshee. Overlord sacs are always worth it, and give you a ton of information. You don't want spore crawlers against a reactor hellion/2rax rauder marauder/hellion all-in. You don't want roach/bane/ling against 2port banshee. The key to the game is scouting, and it's okay to go ape shit with overlord saccing if it gets you any information. If their 1 base timings are late, focus on getting to 2 base saturation as fast as possible and then massing units.
At lower levels, people have a very skewed sense of who is ahead/behind. If I have a build, as Terran, that gets stimmed marines and siege tanks, then double expanding, I'm on 3 bases right? If you aren't on 4 then you're behind? No. Terran will have like, 1.5 bases of SCVs, so you can drone your third and you're ahead, despite being on even "bases".
Edit: Baseracing against 2base deathball is the way to go. Either with muta/ling or roach/ling. It's a shitty style that is countered by either good macro or baserace. Again, every second that you're on 3 bases vs 2, you're getting further and further ahead.
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OK mate, thx for the tips, will try them out and if I have additional trouble will post replays.
Just another question: if I manage to get that 2base saturation and see him expand quite late, what would you recommend? Getting a 3rd or building an army with my 2 bases and try to go kill him/deny his expo?
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To all the people who replied to my question about aggressive midgame styles:
The replies are appreciated I can't reply to every one, most were similar anyway ^^
I guess the skillcap is a lot higher, so I'm considering doing them. Subtle ways to get ahead, without investing too much. 2 overlords of Zerglings in his main while pressuring his third can kill so many probes if he doesn't react quickly enough.
Baseracing is also very effective against pre-broodlord timings :D
I'll be sure to use these style and get more familiar with it!
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I'm having a lot of trouble vs T lately. Mostly because I constantly feel under pressure from hellion/banshee + random marine timings and don't drone enough.
My question is how to secure a third safely. I've (finally) started using no gas queen openers and I've found that it's still tough to defend against hellion banshee. I'm trying to improve my early game creep spread and that MAY dissolve my problem, but it still seems like either I'm droning too hard and getting punished or making too much defence and getting destroyed by delayed pushes.
Are there any important points to securing the third I should know about with this style? And when I scout, what should I be looking for? I find it hard to tell what means terran is pushing and what means expo...
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On September 21 2010 11:04 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
When do you start getting 2/2 upgrades? Be as detailed or as vague as you want lol, I've just been going with "whenever I can afford it."
Depends on that match up, but in ZvT and ZvP it seems that you should get it as soon as 1/1 finishes. in ZvZ I go with whenever my third is fully saturated.
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Can anyone help me with what terran can go for after a 1raxFE and how to scout it/react.
Options seem so many, it's a bit confusing.
Can I do the same build against all 1raxFE, like going ling/infestor, or do I need different builds to respond to various options.
It always feels like builds for Z are a lot more work than for T or P because they can study only 1 build for the MU and we need lots of variations to respond to their many options.
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EPT
