Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions.
On October 16 2012 01:21 klue wrote: just switching back to zerg from playing randomly. I'm been looking for the most update "standard" build orders for each ZvX. This probably gets answered all the time here but if one of you could tell me, show me, coach me, send me a rep, video link, or direct me to another thread/post, that would be awesome.
Again I'm looking for the best builds for each match-up that are safe and powerful: standard.
Search for "[G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide" to see guides for ZvT and ZvP, to begin with.
On October 16 2012 07:46 IPA wrote: Speaking of Ole' Belial, where has he been? Hasn't made a post since...Sept 22? He usually loves spamming these here forums.
On October 16 2012 07:46 IPA wrote: Speaking of Ole' Belial, where has he been? Hasn't made a post since...Sept 22? He usually loves spamming these here forums.
Temp Banned...again. And for the last time. Not shown in any post, but he's there in the ABL
While I personally disagree with the decision to ban, it's not my right to decide. I hope he improves his posting enough to stay on teamliquid!
On October 16 2012 07:46 IPA wrote: Speaking of Ole' Belial, where has he been? Hasn't made a post since...Sept 22? He usually loves spamming these here forums.
Temp Banned...again. And for the last time. Not shown in any post, but he's there in the ABL
While I personally disagree with the decision to ban, it's not my right to decide. I hope he improves his posting enough to stay on teamliquid!
Edit: I think it's a 90 day, not sure.
Every post in the strategy forums that belial ever made had an air of arrogance about it. Someone asks a question in this thread and he goes (paraphrasing) "UGH, Why don't people check out MY GUIDE, seriously, you dumb fucks *link*" "You are wrong in every respect, because I am right, here's what I'm talking about: *link to one of his guides*"
I dunno, sure he was helpful, but in the most annoying and obtrusive way possible.
Belial88 was just temp banned for 30 days by Plexa.
That account was created on 2010-11-07 17:13:15 and had 4382 posts.
Reason: You're still being way too aggressive and stuborn, refusing to acknowledge any opinion but your own. Moreover, there are a lot of faulty arguments and logic misseteps in your post which you fail to recognize. You also used the report feature to settle an argument, that's a no go. The upshot of this is that we're simply tired of dealing with you time after time after time. This is your last warning.
P.S. don't bother pming me about this ban (I know you want to).
So guys I've been using the backspace-inject method. But how is it supposed to work in the lategame? Not every hatchery has a queen, so it messes up the queens, doesn't it? They all walk off to random hatcheries which is annoying, to say the least. What am I doing wrong?
On October 16 2012 08:42 Henk wrote: So guys I've been using the backspace-inject method. But how is it supposed to work in the lategame? Not every hatchery has a queen, so it messes up the queens, doesn't it? They all walk off to random hatcheries which is annoying, to say the least. What am I doing wrong?
I backspace inject as well, and on maps like Antiga where every base past the third is way too far for queens to walk, I just backspace-inject everything, then after about a second or two (in which I'm off checking my army or watching the minimap), I press stop. so queens will inject at least the hatch in front of them, with one or two having enough time to then turn and inject a macro hatch (I usually place them adjacent to the mining hatches), then they get stopped before they wander off. This, with some variation in timing, works decently enough; I usually have enough larvae for a ling remax. But isn't ideal. Still, given that this is in the lategame, I feel like it's just not worth the extra two seconds of undivided attention to "manually" inject through another method (backspace inject is pretty much automatic for me now).
I'm definitely interested in better methods, but this way works alright for me, and is definitely preferable to losing queens.
On October 16 2012 08:42 Henk wrote: So guys I've been using the backspace-inject method. But how is it supposed to work in the lategame? Not every hatchery has a queen, so it messes up the queens, doesn't it? They all walk off to random hatcheries which is annoying, to say the least. What am I doing wrong?
I backspace inject as well, and on maps like Antiga where every base past the third is way too far for queens to walk, I just backspace-inject everything, then after about a second or two (in which I'm off checking my army or watching the minimap), I press stop. so queens will inject at least the hatch in front of them, with one or two having enough time to then turn and inject a macro hatch (I usually place them adjacent to the mining hatches), then they get stopped before they wander off. This, with some variation in timing, works decently enough; I usually have enough larvae for a ling remax. But isn't ideal. Still, given that this is in the lategame, I feel like it's just not worth the extra two seconds of undivided attention to "manually" inject through another method (backspace inject is pretty much automatic for me now).
I'm definitely interested in better methods, but this way works alright for me, and is definitely preferable to losing queens.
But if you start backspace injecting; like.. You've got 5 hatcheries and 4 queens. queen 1 wanders off to hatch 5, queen 2 wanders to hatch 4, etc.. They all walk to other hatcheries before injecting their own sometimes, don't they? And if you press stop they'll stop wandering off but they won't inject either, right?
On October 16 2012 08:42 Henk wrote: So guys I've been using the backspace-inject method. But how is it supposed to work in the lategame? Not every hatchery has a queen, so it messes up the queens, doesn't it? They all walk off to random hatcheries which is annoying, to say the least. What am I doing wrong?
I backspace inject as well, and on maps like Antiga where every base past the third is way too far for queens to walk, I just backspace-inject everything, then after about a second or two (in which I'm off checking my army or watching the minimap), I press stop. so queens will inject at least the hatch in front of them, with one or two having enough time to then turn and inject a macro hatch (I usually place them adjacent to the mining hatches), then they get stopped before they wander off. This, with some variation in timing, works decently enough; I usually have enough larvae for a ling remax. But isn't ideal. Still, given that this is in the lategame, I feel like it's just not worth the extra two seconds of undivided attention to "manually" inject through another method (backspace inject is pretty much automatic for me now).
I'm definitely interested in better methods, but this way works alright for me, and is definitely preferable to losing queens.
But if you start backspace injecting; like.. You've got 5 hatcheries and 4 queens. queen 1 wanders off to hatch 5, queen 2 wanders to hatch 4, etc.. They all walk to other hatcheries before injecting their own sometimes, don't they? And if you press stop they'll stop wandering off but they won't inject either, right?
There's no easy fix, this is the main issue with backspace injecting.
I use the darkgrid method where I have a seperate screenhotkey for each hatch, and all queens on a hotkey. Select queens > press inject button > hold shift > cycle through camera keys while clicking This way when a queen dies you can skip that key, or at the very least press stop afterwards. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=257590
It takes a lot of getting used to, it's not required by any stretch. Backspace method does well enough.
On October 16 2012 08:42 Henk wrote: So guys I've been using the backspace-inject method. But how is it supposed to work in the lategame? Not every hatchery has a queen, so it messes up the queens, doesn't it? They all walk off to random hatcheries which is annoying, to say the least. What am I doing wrong?
I backspace inject as well, and on maps like Antiga where every base past the third is way too far for queens to walk, I just backspace-inject everything, then after about a second or two (in which I'm off checking my army or watching the minimap), I press stop. so queens will inject at least the hatch in front of them, with one or two having enough time to then turn and inject a macro hatch (I usually place them adjacent to the mining hatches), then they get stopped before they wander off. This, with some variation in timing, works decently enough; I usually have enough larvae for a ling remax. But isn't ideal. Still, given that this is in the lategame, I feel like it's just not worth the extra two seconds of undivided attention to "manually" inject through another method (backspace inject is pretty much automatic for me now).
I'm definitely interested in better methods, but this way works alright for me, and is definitely preferable to losing queens.
But if you start backspace injecting; like.. You've got 5 hatcheries and 4 queens. queen 1 wanders off to hatch 5, queen 2 wanders to hatch 4, etc.. They all walk to other hatcheries before injecting their own sometimes, don't they? And if you press stop they'll stop wandering off but they won't inject either, right?
Uh... yes. Occasionally, they get targeted to a far hatch, and they don't inject. There're some variations I've been playing with, such as not holding shift during the backspace spam (which results in repeated commands to inject hatches, eventually there are only non-injected hatches and you force at least one queen to the nearby hatch that needs to be injected), and just doing the backspace spam a second time after pressing stop (generally bad, it skews your inject commands towards the non-inject hatches, which of course includes the far ones). The behavior of the shift key is funky because of the way SC2 AI likes to use energy, I don't really understand it. I am more inclined to find ways to minimize it, or get around it, than work with and solve it. Kind of like goon micro in BW or SC2 doesn't automatically try to use the nearest infestor with fungal energy to launch a fungal--it's bad, you deal with it as best you can.
Still, I'd rather have 12 less larvae than miss a chance, for example, to catch a Terran unsieged, because I was clicking between hatches. Because in this context, you have at least 5 hatches (main, natural, third, macro hatch in main, far expo), and I usually have 6-7 (extra macro hatch in natural, two far expos because they tend to die).
Not saying my method is great, or even good. I do think, however, that it's decent, and I definitely prefer it to having queens die, or worse, get stuck waddling around off creep taking up 2 supply.
On October 16 2012 07:46 IPA wrote: Speaking of Ole' Belial, where has he been? Hasn't made a post since...Sept 22? He usually loves spamming these here forums.
Temp Banned...again. And for the last time. Not shown in any post, but he's there in the ABL
While I personally disagree with the decision to ban, it's not my right to decide. I hope he improves his posting enough to stay on teamliquid!
Edit: I think it's a 90 day, not sure.
Every post in the strategy forums that belial ever made had an air of arrogance about it. Someone asks a question in this thread and he goes (paraphrasing) "UGH, Why don't people check out MY GUIDE, seriously, you dumb fucks *link*" "You are wrong in every respect, because I am right, here's what I'm talking about: *link to one of his guides*"
I dunno, sure he was helpful, but in the most annoying and obtrusive way possible.
Belial88 was just temp banned for 30 days by Plexa.
That account was created on 2010-11-07 17:13:15 and had 4382 posts.
Reason: You're still being way too aggressive and stuborn, refusing to acknowledge any opinion but your own. Moreover, there are a lot of faulty arguments and logic misseteps in your post which you fail to recognize. You also used the report feature to settle an argument, that's a no go. The upshot of this is that we're simply tired of dealing with you time after time after time. This is your last warning.
P.S. don't bother pming me about this ban (I know you want to).
haahaha so I wasn't the only one to notice it was something aggressive about how bad/stupid someone is/was followed by 'here's my guide about everything'
On October 15 2012 08:36 meatbox wrote: how do you counter archons?
was amazed to see 3 archons killing 3 ultralisks without microing, seemed like a hack haha, ultras were 2/4 archons were 2/2
If you're making ultras to deal with archons, you're doing it wrong. It kind of depends on the scenario, but the most effective way to deal with archons is probably fungal.
Actually ultras should win against archons. They're not the best counter, but they're pretty good because the archon splash doesn't harm other ultras due to the side of ultras.
This vid shows how 33 ultras win against 50 archons with a pretty large margin.
Also, fungal counters archons? What? You'd need to fungal a million times to kill an archon, and you'll only catch 2, maybe 3 archons in one fungal.
I think the problem was I engaged the archons which were spread out so there was no cleave bonus, also all the archons were hitting, wasnt at a choke, anyways looking forward to the viper in HotS combined with infestors and hydras, i think that combo could work wonders
I want to add replays for this, but I'm not sure how.
Basically I've kind of lost my ability to survive early cheese in ZvZ... not even cheese, really. I tend to go 14 hatch and try to make it work. Is 14 hatch still viable in ZvZ?
so... being brief my issues have been: mostly early game ling/bling, and mostly aggressive builds. i've been losing a lot to 14g/14p then a queen, expand (not saturated, but used for extra zerglings). I get speed slower, and I'm always at a loss as to when I'm doing just enough to defend, or when I'm over-committing to defense. When banelings come through it tends to get really messy, mostly because banelings are a pain to deal with.
Variations on this have been: the 12 pool/11gas variant with no expand They don't remove from gas and go baneling heavy variant 14/14 pull gas and mass zerglings 14/14 transitions, including: mass ling into infestor. mass ling harass push to put me into a defensive stance, followed by macro follow up- ...into mass muta. (just need scouting tips and timings on this one) standard late-game
my responses and their weaknesses (that set me on edge): I've found early roach isn't really viable from a strategic standpoint. If you hold off that first push, you're kind of stuck vs a decent player, because you can't move out on the map or they'll get a surround and kill you, allowing them a faster 3rd.
get 2 gasses the second i scout an earlier gas than me, then get a faster 150 gas then pull X drones (i play with the number) and try to play standard from there. (this sometimes works, as banelings come out in time to intercept the mass speedlings, and if I spread and control well I can win, but the problem is i'm kind of fighting from behind at this point, it feels, so I'm kind of counting on my control to get me out of the tight situation). This also causes problems when they go full all-in, because I need to control really well to keep up, and one slip-up loses me the game. Another problem is that the faster banelings will keep them from outright killing me, but I'm kind of in the dark as to what's happening behind the push as to whether they're droning or taking a fast 3rd behind it. (which is hard to gauge, as all bling wars tend to end differently)
I get 1 gas, skip speed and go only banelings and throw down 2 spines. This is pretty solid initially. it's just awkward to transition out of, because of how delayed speed is. It kind of forces a roach play follow up, which (from my experience of maybe being a little over-greedy) can cause problems when coming up against ling/infester or ling/muta, and especially mass muta behind it.
try to go pure minerals and throw down 3 spines throughout my nat and block the ramp with slowlings. This delays speed, and I only do this when I've either messed up my gas timing, or when I'm playing around with options to counter early ling/bling vs my 14 hatch. It's kind of dicey. Never feels safe, but on the occasion they mess up and i can hold without losing too much. it's actually decent vs baneling heavy play, as banelings don't do well vs the spines.
again: early roach just hasn't worked for me at all, so I don't go early roaches vs it. Also also: I'm usually at a loss for what transitions to do. I've taken a little hiatus from the game and the ZvZ match up has a lot of new builds I'm not comfortable or used to, so the midgame is kind of stressful. I scout well, but i'm not familiar with the new builds, so its mostly like "ok he's doing X... I know he's doing X... ok... good.... he's doing X... cool..." *continue standard build and shrug* This is only for things I'm not 100% on, like ling/infestor into hive tech... and to a minor extent mass muta play is awkward to fight against, because I'm not used to being pinned down, it's just not a comfortable place for me to be, so i tend to base-race or be active on the field, even when it's not a good idea to do so.
my opener was 14hatch 16 pool, but i found that delayed pool too much, so I've been doing 14 hatch 15 pool lately. My gas timing is up in the air. it's usually "when I scout him building his gas, I'll build mine. If he built his gas before me, immediately get gas after pool". I don't think that's a wrong mentality, but it's all very awkward and shaky in practice.
Any help or 14 hatch opener tips or pointers you live by would be appreciated. Thanks for reading my big wall of text.
One thing to add as well: I know a lot of people will ask "replays?". I understand that mechanics have a lot to do with how well a strategy will pan out; what I have a problem with isn't necessarily mechanics - yes, my mechanics could use a touch up - it's more that I don't have a solid reaction/regiment to practice and brush up on and improve my mechanics with. As you can see, I'm still in the process of doing a lot of experimentation with my response, so every time i try something it feels a little different, and I may or may not miss a few things. I'm not asking for judgement on my mechanics (even though I understand they have an immense influence on how things pan out), I'm asking my fellow zergies what has worked for them in this situation.
edit: one thing I also forgot - I go 9 drone, 10 ovie, 10 drone is scout. That's so that when the ovie pops I have 100 minerals to use up on the larvae and I don't end up delaying my drone production even a second to scout. I'm open to personal experiences with different scout timings, and whether or not pulling an earlier scout or skipping drone scouting is worth it.
On October 16 2012 15:11 DeCiBle wrote: One thing to add as well: I know a lot of people will ask "replays?". I understand that mechanics have a lot to do with how well a strategy will pan out; what I have a problem with isn't necessarily mechanics - yes, my mechanics could use a touch up - it's more that I don't have a solid reaction/regiment to practice and brush up on and improve my mechanics with. As you can see, I'm still in the process of doing a lot of experimentation with my response, so every time i try something it feels a little different, and I may or may not miss a few things. I'm not asking for judgement on my mechanics (even though I understand they have an immense influence on how things pan out), I'm asking my fellow zergies what has worked for them in this situation.
edit: one thing I also forgot - I go 9 drone, 10 ovie, 10 drone is scout. That's so that when the ovie pops I have 100 minerals to use up on the larvae and I don't end up delaying my drone production even a second to scout. I'm open to personal experiences with different scout timings, and whether or not pulling an earlier scout or skipping drone scouting is worth it.
On the issue of scouting, I would say no drone scouting, except MAYBE on 4 player maps if you're nervous. On Cloud Kingdom/Ohana, this will mean you have to 15 pool if you don't want to die to a blind 10 pool. Otherwise, 14/15/16 hatch should always be viable! Sorry if this isn't overly helpful, but just saying how it works for me mid/high NA masters.
On October 16 2012 15:02 DeCiBle wrote: try to go pure minerals and throw down 3 spines throughout my nat and block the ramp with slowlings. This delays speed, and I only do this when I've either messed up my gas timing, or when I'm playing around with options to counter early ling/bling vs my 14 hatch. It's kind of dicey. Never feels safe, but on the occasion they mess up and i can hold without losing too much. it's actually decent vs baneling heavy play, as banelings don't do well vs the spines.
Why would you block your ramp with slow lings? Don't you block it with queens?
The standard defence against ling/bane and speedling all-ins is two queens on the ramp on hold position, a spine crawler, and a few banelings. For extra safety, you go baneling nest before speed.
I think it is understandable when people ask for help in this thread without replays, but in this case it would really be much better if you provided one. From your posts, it sounds a bit as if you were playing all your ZvZs on Tal'darim Altar, to be honest.
On October 16 2012 15:11 DeCiBle wrote: One thing to add as well: I know a lot of people will ask "replays?". I understand that mechanics have a lot to do with how well a strategy will pan out; what I have a problem with isn't necessarily mechanics - yes, my mechanics could use a touch up - it's more that I don't have a solid reaction/regiment to practice and brush up on and improve my mechanics with. As you can see, I'm still in the process of doing a lot of experimentation with my response, so every time i try something it feels a little different, and I may or may not miss a few things. I'm not asking for judgement on my mechanics (even though I understand they have an immense influence on how things pan out), I'm asking my fellow zergies what has worked for them in this situation.
edit: one thing I also forgot - I go 9 drone, 10 ovie, 10 drone is scout. That's so that when the ovie pops I have 100 minerals to use up on the larvae and I don't end up delaying my drone production even a second to scout. I'm open to personal experiences with different scout timings, and whether or not pulling an earlier scout or skipping drone scouting is worth it.
We ask for replays not for mechanics, but because people who are confused and in need of help don't understand what's happening, and thus don't understand what we need to know to help. If they understood and could explain it all, they might not be posting here at all. Your previous post is pretty detailed in terms of what you're losing to (14/14 into just lings then banes against your attempts at early roach). But you don't mention your build (15 hatch? please?), so it's hard to advise you, and you quickly proceed to list 5 variations of the stuff you're losing to. We can try to type out everything in response, but it's much easier to pin down things one replay at a time.
First, early roaches suck. You always die or take too much damage to early aggression. Clear it from your mind. Cleared? Ok, now we can start.
If you're losing to 14/14 ling bane all-in, go 15 hatch, 15p, 15g, two queens ASAP to block ramp, one spine in queen range. first overlord goes behind opponent's natural to watch if he builds any drones (none=all lings, you noted that yourself). First 50 gas to bane nest, next 100 gas to ling speed and take a drone off gas. build 4 lings and morph them to banes as you can. always block the ramp. as soon as you see lots of lings streaming across (your overlords should be covering the paths between bases), go into ling production. keep replacing banes, keep blocking the ramp. transfuse queens and your spine as needed. get injects when he's too far away to do a runby (keep a later overlord out front to help with this).
As TLO said in a recent interview, once you understand how to defend early aggression in ZvZ, it's an extremely stable matchup.
tl;dr Post replays because they're helpful for strategic and tactical analyses, not just criticism of your mechanics. Early roaches suck, you need banes, one spine, and double queen ramp block.
p.s. If you don't post a replay, the conversation will be 100% theorycraft, 0% starcraft. Post a replay. p.p.s. In fact, even though it doesn't prove anything: here's one of mine, where the opponent goes 14/14 16ish hatch and hopes for a chance to do damage, but recognizes that I don't cut corners, and so he immediately returns to droning. I win eventually, but that's not important, just watch what I do early on (through the speedling poke he does at the front). http://drop.sc/265269
do you just take the loss if you get hit with X build? (10 pool, for example is really common at my level) No drone scouting seems too risky to pay off. there are too many cheeses you can be hit with that will just instantly kill you without you being able to do much about it... 7 pool drone pull, and the basic early pool bling rushes seem like they'd be impossible to hold without first knowing what's coming.
if I was in a best of X series vs someone, i might consider a build that uses no drone scouting, especially since I'd have an idea of the other person's style and could just meta-game it. problem is I don't know what's coming.
i'm also really uncomfortable on relying on my overlord to scout, because i like to know when the pool and gas goes down.
one other question: when do you usually get gas in this MU and why?
I just remembered that one common view is you can 10 scout, and if you see the opponent 15 hatching you use the scout to block his hatch while you get yours down. Personally I think the risk is worth it, just personal opinion though. I generally go 15 hatch 16 gas 16 pool, almost always gas before pool unless I'm really suspicious. My view is early speed is needed to sniff out any ling all-ins off a hatch first.
I have trouble dealing with harassment in ZvT (hellions, banshees, drops) at gold level. If I make spores there's always gaps the banshees can explore, if I make spines the hellions just run by. Would appreciate any advice and also: what's the safest build against harassment?
I'm thinking going 6 queens, but the problem is they are slow. If I am at the front spreading creep hellions can just run by or take a different route. And banshees can fly between expansions faster than queens routes by ground (consider for example cloud kingdom going from main to 3rd).
EPT
