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The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 410

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions.
Indrium
Profile Joined November 2010
United States2236 Posts
October 17 2012 07:28 GMT
#8181
On October 17 2012 13:42 HighLach wrote:
Can someone lead me to guide on ling infestor ultra in zvz? I searched a couple places but didn't come up with much.


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344989

I literally googled "ling infestor ultra in zvz"
Azoryen
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Portugal242 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 11:48:15
October 17 2012 11:05 GMT
#8182
I have a question about scouting in a gasless build in ZvT:
If I see gas with my drone scout, this is usually reactor/hellion with inbase CC.
However, it could also be some cheese and because of this I usually find myself changing my build: taking a gas early at ~3:45 for speed, building a spine at ~5:15, sacrificing an OL at 5:45,, etc.

These measures feel kind of a waste if it's reactor/hellion, so my questions are:
- What adaptations you make to a gasless build if you scout gas from the T?
- Is there a way to know if it's reactor hellion before sacrificing the OL?
- Can I hold all cheeses like N rax stim with queens, slow lings and spines only?
SiaBBo
Profile Joined February 2011
Finland133 Posts
October 17 2012 12:02 GMT
#8183
What is the correct unit composition vs. marine/marauder/medivac? After Terran hits 2-2 upgrades it's really hard to kill the bioball if opponent can split his units even a little bit. After +2 armor upgrade Marauders are way too hard to kill by Lings and Marauders kill Roaches very quickly. What's the best counter for this?
syriuszonito
Profile Joined June 2011
Poland332 Posts
October 17 2012 17:44 GMT
#8184
On October 17 2012 21:02 SiaBBo wrote:
What is the correct unit composition vs. marine/marauder/medivac? After Terran hits 2-2 upgrades it's really hard to kill the bioball if opponent can split his units even a little bit. After +2 armor upgrade Marauders are way too hard to kill by Lings and Marauders kill Roaches very quickly. What's the best counter for this?


Pretty much every standard composition deals ok with marine/marauder/medivac (by standard I mean muta/ling/bane or ling/infestor/roach). Upgrades are not changing anything as long as you keep up with the terran player - something you have to do when playing vs bio. Macro like a boss, dont waste your blings on marauders, try to keep the medivac count low with either fungals or mutas and you should be doing fine vs mmm.
The one || My stream http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/syriuszonito
SiaBBo
Profile Joined February 2011
Finland133 Posts
October 17 2012 20:05 GMT
#8185
Yeah, the problem tends to be that I can't kill Medivacs and after Terran gets like 10 of them, it's really hard to do some real damage.
lodeet
Profile Joined September 2011
United States147 Posts
October 17 2012 20:55 GMT
#8186
On October 17 2012 20:05 Azoryen wrote:
I have a question about scouting in a gasless build in ZvT:
If I see gas with my drone scout, this is usually reactor/hellion with inbase CC.
However, it could also be some cheese and because of this I usually find myself changing my build: taking a gas early at ~3:45 for speed, building a spine at ~5:15, sacrificing an OL at 5:45,, etc.

These measures feel kind of a waste if it's reactor/hellion, so my questions are:
- What adaptations you make to a gasless build if you scout gas from the T?
- Is there a way to know if it's reactor hellion before sacrificing the OL?
- Can I hold all cheeses like N rax stim with queens, slow lings and spines only?



You don't need to adapt if you see early gas because 9/10 times it's fast hellion expand.

You just need to be prepared to defend against 4 hellions because when they go real fast hellions usually they are going to try and do some type of eco damage. I would probably just put down 1 spine.

Build 1 set of lings at 25 supply to scout with. If you make it to their base and see no hellions then you need to sac an OL.
If you see hellions but they don't put down a expo by 7 mins then you need to sac an OL. It will be some type of hellion rine/rauder banshee/medivac timing. Possibly proxy banshees as well.

Basically you don't need to transition to gas until you can confirm what they are doing. Any type of rine scv all in can be defended with queens and spines/drones/lings. DRG did it with 4 queens and drones. He didn't even scout the 4 rax all in but still held flawlessly.

Zerg is able to react so fast that it is imperative you maintain drone production until you get scouting information and are able to pinpoint your opponent on what build path they're taking. It is a waste to start preemptive measures in the dark. You only need to do that when your scouting gets denied.
Azoryen
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Portugal242 Posts
October 17 2012 21:22 GMT
#8187
On October 18 2012 05:55 lodeet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 17 2012 20:05 Azoryen wrote:
I have a question about scouting in a gasless build in ZvT:
If I see gas with my drone scout, this is usually reactor/hellion with inbase CC.
However, it could also be some cheese and because of this I usually find myself changing my build: taking a gas early at ~3:45 for speed, building a spine at ~5:15, sacrificing an OL at 5:45,, etc.

These measures feel kind of a waste if it's reactor/hellion, so my questions are:
- What adaptations you make to a gasless build if you scout gas from the T?
- Is there a way to know if it's reactor hellion before sacrificing the OL?
- Can I hold all cheeses like N rax stim with queens, slow lings and spines only?



You don't need to adapt if you see early gas because 9/10 times it's fast hellion expand.

You just need to be prepared to defend against 4 hellions because when they go real fast hellions usually they are going to try and do some type of eco damage. I would probably just put down 1 spine.

Build 1 set of lings at 25 supply to scout with. If you make it to their base and see no hellions then you need to sac an OL.
If you see hellions but they don't put down a expo by 7 mins then you need to sac an OL. It will be some type of hellion rine/rauder banshee/medivac timing. Possibly proxy banshees as well.

Basically you don't need to transition to gas until you can confirm what they are doing. Any type of rine scv all in can be defended with queens and spines/drones/lings. DRG did it with 4 queens and drones. He didn't even scout the 4 rax all in but still held flawlessly.

Zerg is able to react so fast that it is imperative you maintain drone production until you get scouting information and are able to pinpoint your opponent on what build path they're taking. It is a waste to start preemptive measures in the dark. You only need to do that when your scouting gets denied.

Thx, for the answer.
Would love to see that DRG replay.
Any link to it?
Mavvie
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Canada923 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 21:39:44
October 17 2012 21:38 GMT
#8188
On October 18 2012 06:22 Azoryen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2012 05:55 lodeet wrote:
On October 17 2012 20:05 Azoryen wrote:
I have a question about scouting in a gasless build in ZvT:
If I see gas with my drone scout, this is usually reactor/hellion with inbase CC.
However, it could also be some cheese and because of this I usually find myself changing my build: taking a gas early at ~3:45 for speed, building a spine at ~5:15, sacrificing an OL at 5:45,, etc.

These measures feel kind of a waste if it's reactor/hellion, so my questions are:
- What adaptations you make to a gasless build if you scout gas from the T?
- Is there a way to know if it's reactor hellion before sacrificing the OL?
- Can I hold all cheeses like N rax stim with queens, slow lings and spines only?



You don't need to adapt if you see early gas because 9/10 times it's fast hellion expand.

You just need to be prepared to defend against 4 hellions because when they go real fast hellions usually they are going to try and do some type of eco damage. I would probably just put down 1 spine.

Build 1 set of lings at 25 supply to scout with. If you make it to their base and see no hellions then you need to sac an OL.
If you see hellions but they don't put down a expo by 7 mins then you need to sac an OL. It will be some type of hellion rine/rauder banshee/medivac timing. Possibly proxy banshees as well.

Basically you don't need to transition to gas until you can confirm what they are doing. Any type of rine scv all in can be defended with queens and spines/drones/lings. DRG did it with 4 queens and drones. He didn't even scout the 4 rax all in but still held flawlessly.

Zerg is able to react so fast that it is imperative you maintain drone production until you get scouting information and are able to pinpoint your opponent on what build path they're taking. It is a waste to start preemptive measures in the dark. You only need to do that when your scouting gets denied.

Thx, for the answer.
Would love to see that DRG replay.
Any link to it?

Pretty sure it was NesTea, not DRG

It requires a GOMTV pass, and I'm not sure which game of the series it was. But here's the series: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls4/vod/70615

Edit: It's game one! You can watch it :D

Just get 4 queens and pull all your drones and then a-move
Getting back into sc2 O_o
TheGreenMachine
Profile Joined March 2010
United States730 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 21:56:28
October 17 2012 21:43 GMT
#8189
On October 18 2012 05:05 SiaBBo wrote:
Yeah, the problem tends to be that I can't kill Medivacs and after Terran gets like 10 of them, it's really hard to do some real damage.

Muta+ling+bane or ling infestor work well vs bio. And yea you can't keep letting the medivacs get away, you need fungal+queens or mutas to kill them off.

You should be able to keep up with terran in upgrades, often zergs start 1/1 before ling speed or shortly after. Micro would be A+move everything and right click move banelings towards big packs of marines. For infestor ling style burrowed infestors getting huge fungals can make it easier for you.

Also dont forget to flank, especially vs players with good micro, you want to attack from at least 2 angles. This might be easier if you right click your lings onto slow units (ultralisk/banelings/infestors) and then A+move the slow units. That way the lings will run in right as your slow units do. Pay attention to micro of this fight because its so important in this matchup, 1 tank shot can kill 10+ banelings and a ball of marines can shred lings without backup. But you can also kill 10+ marines with 2 banelings and an even fight can sometimes be won 1 sidedly with good zerg micro.
Don't forget to get everyone you know to play HOTS so this game we love called Starcraft will live on. Every little bit helps. ^^
Mrvoodoochild1
Profile Joined June 2011
United States1439 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 22:17:19
October 17 2012 22:14 GMT
#8190
On October 17 2012 20:05 Azoryen wrote:
I have a question about scouting in a gasless build in ZvT:
If I see gas with my drone scout, this is usually reactor/hellion with inbase CC.
However, it could also be some cheese and because of this I usually find myself changing my build: taking a gas early at ~3:45 for speed, building a spine at ~5:15, sacrificing an OL at 5:45,, etc.

These measures feel kind of a waste if it's reactor/hellion, so my questions are:
- What adaptations you make to a gasless build if you scout gas from the T?
- Is there a way to know if it's reactor hellion before sacrificing the OL?
- Can I hold all cheeses like N rax stim with queens, slow lings and spines only?

Getting speed early is never a waste. If a terran sees a zerg getting early speed, he has to keep in the back of his mind that a roach/line/bane timing can come which can lead him to not doing some 3cc build. You never have to sacrifice your overlord at 5:45. If the terran hasn't taken his expo at 5:45 you can pretty much guarantee he is going to cheese you so making a spine isn't that big an investment as you only have to survive the all in without taking much damage to come out ahead. If you don't want to spend money on a spine, you could just make an extra queen or two. Queens are good against any banshee cheese or hellion cheese and you can spread creep early game more effectively. Yes, you can hold most stim timings with just queens slow lings and spines but you have to micro really hard as slow lings are shit.
"let your freak flag fly"
Mrvoodoochild1
Profile Joined June 2011
United States1439 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 22:18:54
October 17 2012 22:18 GMT
#8191
[QUOTE]On October 18 2012 07:14 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
[QUOTE]On October 17 2012 20:05 Azoryen wrote:
Woops, double post
"let your freak flag fly"
Azoryen
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Portugal242 Posts
October 18 2012 01:45 GMT
#8192
On October 18 2012 06:38 Mavvie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2012 06:22 Azoryen wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:55 lodeet wrote:
On October 17 2012 20:05 Azoryen wrote:
I have a question about scouting in a gasless build in ZvT:
If I see gas with my drone scout, this is usually reactor/hellion with inbase CC.
However, it could also be some cheese and because of this I usually find myself changing my build: taking a gas early at ~3:45 for speed, building a spine at ~5:15, sacrificing an OL at 5:45,, etc.

These measures feel kind of a waste if it's reactor/hellion, so my questions are:
- What adaptations you make to a gasless build if you scout gas from the T?
- Is there a way to know if it's reactor hellion before sacrificing the OL?
- Can I hold all cheeses like N rax stim with queens, slow lings and spines only?



You don't need to adapt if you see early gas because 9/10 times it's fast hellion expand.

You just need to be prepared to defend against 4 hellions because when they go real fast hellions usually they are going to try and do some type of eco damage. I would probably just put down 1 spine.

Build 1 set of lings at 25 supply to scout with. If you make it to their base and see no hellions then you need to sac an OL.
If you see hellions but they don't put down a expo by 7 mins then you need to sac an OL. It will be some type of hellion rine/rauder banshee/medivac timing. Possibly proxy banshees as well.

Basically you don't need to transition to gas until you can confirm what they are doing. Any type of rine scv all in can be defended with queens and spines/drones/lings. DRG did it with 4 queens and drones. He didn't even scout the 4 rax all in but still held flawlessly.

Zerg is able to react so fast that it is imperative you maintain drone production until you get scouting information and are able to pinpoint your opponent on what build path they're taking. It is a waste to start preemptive measures in the dark. You only need to do that when your scouting gets denied.

Thx, for the answer.
Would love to see that DRG replay.
Any link to it?

Pretty sure it was NesTea, not DRG

It requires a GOMTV pass, and I'm not sure which game of the series it was. But here's the series: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls4/vod/70615

Edit: It's game one! You can watch it :D

Just get 4 queens and pull all your drones and then a-move


Seen it, quite nice! Nestea's reaction speed is just insane for someone completely unaware of the incoming all-in.
If that was me I'd likely loose the 2 front queens before I had time to do anything else.
Azoryen
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Portugal242 Posts
October 18 2012 01:55 GMT
#8193
I have a couple of simple questions about mechanics related to gas:
What are good techniques to:
1) build 2 simultaneous extractors and
2) send the 6 drones?

For 1) I usually select a bunch of drones then I do this twice: build > extractor hotkeys + left click on geyser
Any better techinque?

For 2) it takes me a lot of time (maybe 10 seconds game time). I usually just try grab 3 drones for each extractor separately and correct it if I grab 2 or 4 instead. It seems like there must be a better way.
Mavvie
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Canada923 Posts
October 18 2012 02:02 GMT
#8194
On October 18 2012 10:55 Azoryen wrote:
I have a couple of simple questions about mechanics related to gas:
What are good techniques to:
1) build 2 simultaneous extractors and
2) send the 6 drones?

For 1) I usually select a bunch of drones then I do this twice: build > extractor hotkeys + left click on geyser
Any better techinque?

For 2) it takes me a lot of time (maybe 10 seconds game time). I usually just try grab 3 drones for each extractor separately and correct it if I grab 2 or 4 instead. It seems like there must be a better way.

1) I do exactly this, I think it works fine! I occasionally misclick but it's not that big a deal
2) You'll get better at it. Just know the "cloning" technique -- select at least 6 drones and right click a gas. Hold shift and in the UI at the bottom center click the drone wireframe icon three times. Release shift, then right click the other geyser. Hold shift, click three more drone wireframe icons, release shift and click minerals if there's any drones left selected.

Basically you tell all drones to mine the geyser, then tell all except three to go to the other geyser, then tell all except three more to mine minerals again

If the timings work out I like to build an extractor, wait for it to be ~1/2 way done then build 3 drones and egg rally into gas, works well too! Then you don't have to spend APM selecting drones, cloning, etc.
Getting back into sc2 O_o
Azoryen
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Portugal242 Posts
October 18 2012 02:14 GMT
#8195
On October 18 2012 11:02 Mavvie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2012 10:55 Azoryen wrote:
I have a couple of simple questions about mechanics related to gas:
What are good techniques to:
1) build 2 simultaneous extractors and
2) send the 6 drones?

For 1) I usually select a bunch of drones then I do this twice: build > extractor hotkeys + left click on geyser
Any better techinque?

For 2) it takes me a lot of time (maybe 10 seconds game time). I usually just try grab 3 drones for each extractor separately and correct it if I grab 2 or 4 instead. It seems like there must be a better way.

1) I do exactly this, I think it works fine! I occasionally misclick but it's not that big a deal
2) You'll get better at it. Just know the "cloning" technique -- select at least 6 drones and right click a gas. Hold shift and in the UI at the bottom center click the drone wireframe icon three times. Release shift, then right click the other geyser. Hold shift, click three more drone wireframe icons, release shift and click minerals if there's any drones left selected.

Basically you tell all drones to mine the geyser, then tell all except three to go to the other geyser, then tell all except three more to mine minerals again

If the timings work out I like to build an extractor, wait for it to be ~1/2 way done then build 3 drones and egg rally into gas, works well too! Then you don't have to spend APM selecting drones, cloning, etc.

Thanks!
The "cloning" technique seems more complicated, but must be faster once you get used to it. Gotta practice that.

I though about the egg rally technique myself, but the problem is I hotkey all my hatches together and the drones may come from across the map for this if this is my 4th or 5th!
Do you hotkey hatches separately?
I believe there is no priorirty in the way the larva is spent across many hatches or is there?
Henk
Profile Joined March 2012
Netherlands578 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-18 09:11:13
October 18 2012 09:08 GMT
#8196
On October 18 2012 11:14 Azoryen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2012 11:02 Mavvie wrote:
On October 18 2012 10:55 Azoryen wrote:
I have a couple of simple questions about mechanics related to gas:
What are good techniques to:
1) build 2 simultaneous extractors and
2) send the 6 drones?

For 1) I usually select a bunch of drones then I do this twice: build > extractor hotkeys + left click on geyser
Any better techinque?

For 2) it takes me a lot of time (maybe 10 seconds game time). I usually just try grab 3 drones for each extractor separately and correct it if I grab 2 or 4 instead. It seems like there must be a better way.

1) I do exactly this, I think it works fine! I occasionally misclick but it's not that big a deal
2) You'll get better at it. Just know the "cloning" technique -- select at least 6 drones and right click a gas. Hold shift and in the UI at the bottom center click the drone wireframe icon three times. Release shift, then right click the other geyser. Hold shift, click three more drone wireframe icons, release shift and click minerals if there's any drones left selected.

Basically you tell all drones to mine the geyser, then tell all except three to go to the other geyser, then tell all except three more to mine minerals again

If the timings work out I like to build an extractor, wait for it to be ~1/2 way done then build 3 drones and egg rally into gas, works well too! Then you don't have to spend APM selecting drones, cloning, etc.

Thanks!
The "cloning" technique seems more complicated, but must be faster once you get used to it. Gotta practice that.

I though about the egg rally technique myself, but the problem is I hotkey all my hatches together and the drones may come from across the map for this if this is my 4th or 5th!
Do you hotkey hatches separately?
I believe there is no priorirty in the way the larva is spent across many hatches or is there?


The 'cloning' technique is really the way to go. It might take some practice, but it's so much smoother. I, being the mineralfreak I am, Press c three times while doing the cloning technique so I don't waste any minerals.
So: Select 6+ drones, click on extractor - press c- remove three with shift - click on other extractor - press c- remove three - click on minerals - press c

By doing this all minerals get returned with as little as possible mining time. While it might sound like a hassle, if you do it frequently it's basically second nature and I cringe when I see people not doing it. Ofcourse it's fine to start out without the c button, it doesn't make -that- much of a difference.

edit: About your rally problem; just make the 3 drones manually by going to the hatchery which you're making the extractors for. Personally I don't rally like that, but I guess you could if you wanted to. Requires same amount of apm anyway, and watching the extractor being halfway done costs the same amount of time as checking when it's done.
RaiZ
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
2813 Posts
October 18 2012 09:52 GMT
#8197
Just don't pay attention to the extractor being half done... Just send them right after being built... Most of the time your drones will be on natural going for main geyser, and they'll gather at about the perfect time.

You're just being too much nit picking.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. Oscar Wilde
Malhavoc
Profile Joined October 2010
Italy308 Posts
October 18 2012 12:14 GMT
#8198
What's the correct way to engage a bio/tank terran force with a ling/bling/infestor army? With just ling/bling, i move lings to surround everything, and micro banes onto marines. With infestors I'm not sure which way should I opt for:

1- same as with ling/bling, but with some fungals after it to increase dps and prevent them from escaping (infestors should stay behind all the time)

2- start with fungal, then attack with ling/bling. Infestors are forced to be in front, at least at the beginning

Of course the second option sounds way more efficient, but I feel like the infestors are too vulnerable when left in the front row: if I'm doing something else (like macro) while they are left in such a formation, terran can easily stim and kill all my infestors for free.
Thesper
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom37 Posts
October 18 2012 13:01 GMT
#8199
On October 18 2012 07:14 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
Getting speed early is never a waste. If a terran sees a zerg getting early speed, he has to keep in the back of his mind that a roach/line/bane timing can come which can lead him to not doing some 3cc build. You never have to sacrifice your overlord at 5:45. If the terran hasn't taken his expo at 5:45 you can pretty much guarantee he is going to cheese you so making a spine isn't that big an investment as you only have to survive the all in without taking much damage to come out ahead. If you don't want to spend money on a spine, you could just make an extra queen or two. Queens are good against any banshee cheese or hellion cheese and you can spread creep early game more effectively. Yes, you can hold most stim timings with just queens slow lings and spines but you have to micro really hard as slow lings are shit.


Just an fyi, you can start extractors as late as 44-45 supply and still hit the roach/ling/bane timing. The only real tells for Terran on knowing if it is or isn't coming or not is either seeing a fast third and lots of queens, or seeing 8+ roaches and lings moving out.
Mavvie
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Canada923 Posts
October 18 2012 13:04 GMT
#8200
On October 18 2012 21:14 Malhavoc wrote:
What's the correct way to engage a bio/tank terran force with a ling/bling/infestor army? With just ling/bling, i move lings to surround everything, and micro banes onto marines. With infestors I'm not sure which way should I opt for:

1- same as with ling/bling, but with some fungals after it to increase dps and prevent them from escaping (infestors should stay behind all the time)

2- start with fungal, then attack with ling/bling. Infestors are forced to be in front, at least at the beginning

Of course the second option sounds way more efficient, but I feel like the infestors are too vulnerable when left in the front row: if I'm doing something else (like macro) while they are left in such a formation, terran can easily stim and kill all my infestors for free.

Positioning is everything with infestors. Always research burrow. I'll assume we're talking about breaking a tank line that's already sieged.

-infested terrans must absorb the first tank shots. From worst to best: 1) throw a few IT into tank range, time it so that eggs land just before your ling/bane enters tank range. 2) burrowed infestor throws IT around marines to deal friendly splash. 3) throw IT onto tanks using a burrowed infestor to absorb all tank shots and make them shoot each other.

-flanks are absolutely amazing, but hard to execute. I should but I don't. Just split some army away and try to time everything, don't worry if it isn't perfect because it's still better than not flanking

During the engagement:
-fungal clumps of marines or medivacs (>5 units would get hit), spam IT around tanks.
-micro banes away from tanks and towards marines. I recommend the following hotkeys:
1- main ling force
2- main bane force
3- infestors
9(rebound to W, E, Y or something on left side) - flanking ling/bane

I recommend practicing it a lot in custom games. Keep an eye on your infestors, burrow them if they're being focused by tanks.
Getting back into sc2 O_o
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