The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 409

On October 16 2012 17:16 DeCiBle wrote:
do you just take the loss if you get hit with X build? (10 pool, for example is really common at my level) No drone scouting seems too risky to pay off. there are too many cheeses you can be hit with that will just instantly kill you without you being able to do much about it... 7 pool drone pull, and the basic early pool bling rushes seem like they'd be impossible to hold without first knowing what's coming.

if I was in a best of X series vs someone, i might consider a build that uses no drone scouting, especially since I'd have an idea of the other person's style and could just meta-game it. problem is I don't know what's coming.

i'm also really uncomfortable on relying on my overlord to scout, because i like to know when the pool and gas goes down.

one other question: when do you usually get gas in this MU and why?

On October 16 2012 18:47 Azoryen wrote:
I have trouble dealing with harassment in ZvT (hellions, banshees, drops) at gold level.
If I make spores there's always gaps the banshees can explore, if I make spines the hellions just run by.
Would appreciate any advice and also: what's the safest build against harassment?

I'm thinking going 6 queens, but the problem is they are slow. If I am at the front spreading creep hellions can just run by or take a different route. And banshees can fly between expansions faster than queens routes by ground (consider for example cloud kingdom going from main to 3rd).

On October 16 2012 19:05 6xFPCs wrote:


The big issue I have with zergs these days is that they rely on queens and speedlings to fight banshee hellion. Because you need queens+lings to fight hellions, but also queens to fight the banshees. So if hellions hit in one spot, and banshees in another, you can only properly defend one spot (the one to which you send queens). So I strongly recommend the mortal approach to dealing with it: roaches. Roaches handle hellions, queens handle banshees. No potential for a disadvantageous split.

You really only need one centered spore per base to handle banshees long enough for queens to make it back, especially if you're going roach (queens don't need to cover everything, just banshee spots). Regardless of whether you add roaches or not, you might want to just stop a-moving all your queens around and try to split it up to handle the relative threat a little more closely. One banshee doesn't require a 4-queen response, for instance. And as long as your queen can move in and out of spore cover, you can fight banshees one-on-one. And if you go to 6 queens, you should have enough to handle both threats. "Should".

If you're really having trouble with banshees finding gaps in spore coverage, though, then you might not be running your drones properly. You just need to run them long enough for queens to make it back, as you should still have the majority of each mineral line protected by spores.

I don't suppose I can ask you for a replay, too? Because it also sounds like you're not walling your front. A proper wall has a queen-size gap that you can easily plug, plus a spine that can hit hellions trying to kill that blocking queen. So if banshees hit your main, you send one queen to hold the wall, then the rest to deal with banshees. (You DO have at least 4 queens, yes?)

On October 16 2012 19:25 Azoryen wrote:

Actually, I only make 3 queens early (2 for injects and 1 for creep) and I add a forth when I make my macro hatch.
This is the build with gas at 16-17, not the gasless 4-6 queens, that's why I'm asking if I should try the gasless style: it seems safer against harassment.

I don't really get the 'move in and out from spore cover', because even gold players know how to hold position with the banshees and they have good range. This never works for me.
I don't usually save replays, but I can post it later when I play some games.

On October 16 2012 19:25 Azoryen wrote:

Actually, I only make 3 queens early (2 for injects and 1 for creep) and I add a forth when I make my macro hatch.
This is the build with gas at 16-17, not the gasless 4-6 queens, that's why I'm asking if I should try the gasless style: it seems safer against harassment.

I don't really get the 'move in and out from spore cover', because even gold players know how to hold position with the banshees and they have good range. This never works for me.
I don't usually save replays, but I can post it later when I play some games.

On October 16 2012 22:10 Brainiac_Br wrote:
Want to know ways (read All-ins and cheeses) to win before 10 minutes, am tired of long post 20 min. macro games

I tried Liquepidia Cheese section, 6 pool aren't working with me, poor micro, big maps, etc.

Using (and winning with) Ling Flood for ZvZ, so what All-ins do you guys recommend against P and T?

On October 16 2012 22:10 Brainiac_Br wrote:
Want to know ways (read All-ins and cheeses) to win before 10 minutes, am tired of long post 20 min. macro games

I tried Liquepidia Cheese section, 6 pool aren't working with me, poor micro, big maps, etc.

Using (and winning with) Ling Flood for ZvZ, so what All-ins do you guys recommend against P and T?

On October 17 2012 00:10 HighLach wrote:


Mavvie already said it, but that ZvP fake expo attack is really good. I want to talk about it in a little more depth. I like to do it a different way with early gas, and ling speed. I think Leenock pioneered this build, so if you want to watch a replay, pretty sure he has a few of them with this build.

9/10 Overlord
14/18 - Gas - Only mine 100 gas until the scouting probe out of your base, start mining again. Get ling speed right away.
14/18 - Pool
15/18 - Overlord
15/18 - Queen - Inject immediately, the inject lines up with the timing on your roaches.
17/26 - 2 pairs of lings to deny scouting. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. He can't see the cancel or your main/roach warren.
20/26 - Expand, cancel it before it finishes, you need the cash for roaches.
20/26 - Stop building drones at this point.
! Build the roach warren before 4:45 or it wont be ready.
The roach warren will put you at 19 supply, and when you cancel the hatch it will put you at 20. You should be anywhere from 20/34 or 20/42 when you attack.

When the inject pops, build all roaches, and follow up the attack with lings. Go right to his base and do not hesitate, attack immediately or you will lose.

Another thing, if you are doing a BO3, BO5 etc... you can just get the 100 gas, and then actually stop and just drone + expand. It puts you behind a regular 15 pool no gas expand, but if you throw this kind of all-in at an opponent, and then deny scouting just like you were going all-in, but macro, you can really mess with someones head.

On October 16 2012 22:10 Brainiac_Br wrote:
Want to know ways (read All-ins and cheeses) to win before 10 minutes, am tired of long post 20 min. macro games

I tried Liquepidia Cheese section, 6 pool aren't working with me, poor micro, big maps, etc.

Using (and winning with) Ling Flood for ZvZ, so what All-ins do you guys recommend against P and T?

On October 16 2012 22:10 Brainiac_Br wrote:
Want to know ways (read All-ins and cheeses) to win before 10 minutes, am tired of long post 20 min. macro games

I tried Liquepidia Cheese section, 6 pool aren't working with me, poor micro, big maps, etc.

Using (and winning with) Ling Flood for ZvZ, so what All-ins do you guys recommend against P and T?

On October 16 2012 19:25 Azoryen wrote:

Actually, I only make 3 queens early (2 for injects and 1 for creep) and I add a forth when I make my macro hatch.
This is the build with gas at 16-17, not the gasless 4-6 queens, that's why I'm asking if I should try the gasless style: it seems safer against harassment.

I don't really get the 'move in and out from spore cover', because even gold players know how to hold position with the banshees and they have good range. This never works for me.
I don't usually save replays, but I can post it later when I play some games.

On October 16 2012 15:02 DeCiBle wrote:
I want to add replays for this, but I'm not sure how.

Basically I've kind of lost my ability to survive early cheese in ZvZ... not even cheese, really. I tend to go 14 hatch and try to make it work. Is 14 hatch still viable in ZvZ?

so... being brief my issues have been:
mostly early game ling/bling, and mostly aggressive builds. i've been losing a lot to 14g/14p then a queen, expand (not saturated, but used for extra zerglings). I get speed slower, and I'm always at a loss as to when I'm doing just enough to defend, or when I'm over-committing to defense. When banelings come through it tends to get really messy, mostly because banelings are a pain to deal with.

Variations on this have been:
the 12 pool/11gas variant with no expand
They don't remove from gas and go baneling heavy variant
14/14 pull gas and mass zerglings
14/14 transitions, including: mass ling into infestor.
mass ling harass push to put me into a defensive stance, followed by macro follow up-
...into mass muta. (just need scouting tips and timings on this one)
standard late-game

my responses and their weaknesses (that set me on edge):
I've found early roach isn't really viable from a strategic standpoint. If you hold off that first push, you're kind of stuck vs a decent player, because you can't move out on the map or they'll get a surround and kill you, allowing them a faster 3rd.

get 2 gasses the second i scout an earlier gas than me, then get a faster 150 gas then pull X drones (i play with the number) and try to play standard from there. (this sometimes works, as banelings come out in time to intercept the mass speedlings, and if I spread and control well I can win, but the problem is i'm kind of fighting from behind at this point, it feels, so I'm kind of counting on my control to get me out of the tight situation). This also causes problems when they go full all-in, because I need to control really well to keep up, and one slip-up loses me the game. Another problem is that the faster banelings will keep them from outright killing me, but I'm kind of in the dark as to what's happening behind the push as to whether they're droning or taking a fast 3rd behind it. (which is hard to gauge, as all bling wars tend to end differently)

I get 1 gas, skip speed and go only banelings and throw down 2 spines. This is pretty solid initially. it's just awkward to transition out of, because of how delayed speed is. It kind of forces a roach play follow up, which (from my experience of maybe being a little over-greedy) can cause problems when coming up against ling/infester or ling/muta, and especially mass muta behind it.

try to go pure minerals and throw down 3 spines throughout my nat and block the ramp with slowlings. This delays speed, and I only do this when I've either messed up my gas timing, or when I'm playing around with options to counter early ling/bling vs my 14 hatch. It's kind of dicey. Never feels safe, but on the occasion they mess up and i can hold without losing too much. it's actually decent vs baneling heavy play, as banelings don't do well vs the spines.

again: early roach just hasn't worked for me at all, so I don't go early roaches vs it. Also also: I'm usually at a loss for what transitions to do. I've taken a little hiatus from the game and the ZvZ match up has a lot of new builds I'm not comfortable or used to, so the midgame is kind of stressful. I scout well, but i'm not familiar with the new builds, so its mostly like "ok he's doing X... I know he's doing X... ok... good.... he's doing X... cool..." *continue standard build and shrug* This is only for things I'm not 100% on, like ling/infestor into hive tech... and to a minor extent mass muta play is awkward to fight against, because I'm not used to being pinned down, it's just not a comfortable place for me to be, so i tend to base-race or be active on the field, even when it's not a good idea to do so.


my opener was 14hatch 16 pool, but i found that delayed pool too much, so I've been doing 14 hatch 15 pool lately. My gas timing is up in the air. it's usually "when I scout him building his gas, I'll build mine. If he built his gas before me, immediately get gas after pool". I don't think that's a wrong mentality, but it's all very awkward and shaky in practice.

Any help or 14 hatch opener tips or pointers you live by would be appreciated. Thanks for reading my big wall of text.

On October 17 2012 09:01 MrBitter wrote:
Looking for winning replays of 2 base muta vs fast 3 CC Terran.

Anybody have some from GM/Pro level?

On October 17 2012 10:09 Mavvie wrote:

Pretty sure this isn't possible unless they go into mech and don't have thors/turrets in time (which won't happen at gm/pro level).
Why go 2 base muta? You need to do lots of damage, not to say it isn't impossible but it's harder to win IMO

On October 17 2012 10:23 lodeet wrote:


2 base muta hits right before terran production kicks in and before combat shield + stim finishes giving you a chance to kill researching tech lab and pretty much win the game. Muta very strong vs current terran meta.