EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 411
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Malhavoc
Italy308 Posts
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Giganthrax
Serbia19 Posts
- How to defend vs cannon rush where the opponent actively cannons your natural and your 3rd? Basically, the way I see it, unless I spot the pylon instantly, as soon as it goes down, and pull drones off minerals to kill it, it's pretty much GG. He's going to place another pylon + cannon or two on my natural and force cancel. I can't leave my base and he just keeps cannoning me if I manage to get a drone out. Short of having a drone follow his probe around, I dunno what else I can do? Replay: http://drop.sc/265872 - How to defend vs pylon block on ramp? On some maps it's possible to break the wall because you can bunch up drones to do instant big hits on pylons, but on some maps it cant be done due to mineral placements (drones won't bunch up). Just watched Grubby totally murder Ret with this tactic, it was kinda sad. In fact, I dont understand why protoss players dont do this all the time vs zerg, seeing as it's a braindead tactic that totally shuts down the zerg and doesn't really hurt a toss's economy.  Replay: http://drop.sc/265871 Here's to hoping they add those burrowed supply depots to every map. -_- | ||
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M1cha84
Germany64 Posts
In the second case: I leave the game immediatly, when the P player gets to block your ramp, you are far behind. This is just bad map design or bad gameplay design if you ask me... | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On October 19 2012 02:48 Giganthrax wrote: - How to defend vs pylon block on ramp? On some maps it's possible to break the wall because you can bunch up drones to do instant big hits on pylons, but on some maps it cant be done due to mineral placements (drones won't bunch up). Just watched Grubby totally murder Ret with this tactic, it was kinda sad. In fact, I dont understand why protoss players dont do this all the time vs zerg, seeing as it's a braindead tactic that totally shuts down the zerg and doesn't really hurt a toss's economy. Replay: http://drop.sc/265871 Here's to hoping they add those burrowed supply depots to every map. -_- My response is to use 11 overpool into 7 RR vs 3-pylon block. Here's a rep: http://drop.sc/256301 Basically you transition immediately into a 7RR as soon as you see the 3 pylons go down with your overlord. If he doesn't pylon block you, then you simply transition by getting 4 lings and going 19hatch. If you macro properly I can still hit 70 supply by the 8:00 mark with this build. If he aggressively cannons (3+), then the best alternatives are to muta or nydus off of 1-base. remember that he's setting himself really behind with spending all those minerals, so if you have a clean muta/nydus build you can get pretty ahead. You don't even absolutely have to nydus into his base; sometimes outside is sufficient if he hasn't cannoned his front sufficiently. The most fun alternative by far is that if you drone scout, go proxy hatch him while he's blocking you out. If the hatch gets built it's pretty much insta-win; if not you may have to cancel and try for muta/nydus, but it's tough. Another set of alternatives come from cancelling your hatch and go into a roach rush off of a 14/15pool, but you lose the 75 minerals from the hatch cancel. Not the end of the world, but it puts you a little behind. There's a discussion of this at the bottom of the OP here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370042 You can just leave the game, but personally I really hate losing to this kind of stuff and I'd rather play it out =P the 11 overpool response into 7RR puts you even/ahead if he pylon blocks you, which is pretty evident from the replay even though I macro like shit. Not sure about a hatch cancel 14pool into 7RR. Also, unless you're sure you can break the wall, one of the worst things you can do is to drone stack. If you try to drone stack and fail, you immediately lose the game due to how much minerals you've lost. Make sure your spawning position and the map allows for drone stacking before attempting this. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
 LOL, for the record that's a joke related to Belial 11 overpool 18 hatch is pretty sick, and the listed transitions are good ^^ | ||
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Sajaki
Canada1135 Posts
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On October 19 2012 05:22 Sajaki wrote: Are you far behind if you take your third hatch as a macro hatch vs Terran (assuming standard play from T) and take the actual third base at at 8ish minutes? It just feels... better... i dunno. Feels like its also easier to defend a marine hellion timing, but i dunno. It's viable, but there's no reason to not take a third. Through basic scouting you can defend any timing, and it's a huge boost to your economy. Sure, if Terran attacks into you with a 2 base timing while you're on 2 bases of course you'll crush it, but only a retard will move out when he's ahead. 2 base macro hatch (fast lair usually, too) is "countered" by standard macro play from Terran; hellion/banshee into fast third double ebay -> marine/tank/medivac. You'll probably die to his 2/2 bio +1 tank timing if he's any good, and he'll have turrets in time for mutas if he's any good too. Just practice a 6 queen opener to take your third; 6Q + reactive slowling + 1 spine at nat + 1 at third and you're safe from anything. Just get evos ~55-60 to get spores out in time. | ||
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Sajaki
Canada1135 Posts
On October 19 2012 05:29 Mavvie wrote: It's viable, but there's no reason to not take a third. Through basic scouting you can defend any timing, and it's a huge boost to your economy. Sure, if Terran attacks into you with a 2 base timing while you're on 2 bases of course you'll crush it, but only a retard will move out when he's ahead. 2 base macro hatch (fast lair usually, too) is "countered" by standard macro play from Terran; hellion/banshee into fast third double ebay -> marine/tank/medivac. You'll probably die to his 2/2 bio +1 tank timing if he's any good, and he'll have turrets in time for mutas if he's any good too. Just practice a 6 queen opener to take your third; 6Q + reactive slowling + 1 spine at nat + 1 at third and you're safe from anything. Just get evos ~55-60 to get spores out in time. Ok so should the third go down at 35 or 45, typically? | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On October 19 2012 05:43 Sajaki wrote: Ok so should the third go down at 35 or 45, typically? Either way works, but personally I prefer 36 or 44 because that lines up with the overlord timings  I go 44 because I don't have to stop queen production, but I've seen pro Zergs take it at 36. Hell, I'm still unsure about the 6Q opener's timings. I usually take double gas at 44 after hatch, double evo at 55 and double gas at 60 but I think I should switch the double evo and second double gas around. Brb, checking belial's guide ^^ Edit: + Show Spoiler + The Basic Build Order is as follows: Hatch First 2xQueens 2xQueens ~35-45 Third, 2xGas (not a big deal when you take, it's a few drones vs hatch made earlier) 2xQueens ~55 Speed, Spine at Nat and Third, Sim City 2xEvo's at Natural to block 70+ 2xGas, Necessary Spores, Roach Warren or Baneling Nest | ||
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Azoryen
Portugal242 Posts
On October 19 2012 02:48 Giganthrax wrote: Two ZvP questions. - How to defend vs cannon rush where the opponent actively cannons your natural and your 3rd? Basically, the way I see it, unless I spot the pylon instantly, as soon as it goes down, and pull drones off minerals to kill it, it's pretty much GG. He's going to place another pylon + cannon or two on my natural and force cancel. I can't leave my base and he just keeps cannoning me if I manage to get a drone out. Short of having a drone follow his probe around, I dunno what else I can do? Replay: http://drop.sc/265872 - How to defend vs pylon block on ramp? On some maps it's possible to break the wall because you can bunch up drones to do instant big hits on pylons, but on some maps it cant be done due to mineral placements (drones won't bunch up). Just watched Grubby totally murder Ret with this tactic, it was kinda sad. In fact, I dont understand why protoss players dont do this all the time vs zerg, seeing as it's a braindead tactic that totally shuts down the zerg and doesn't really hurt a toss's economy. Replay: http://drop.sc/265871 Here's to hoping they add those burrowed supply depots to every map. -_- If you plan on buying HotS don't worry too much about number 2 because David Kim has aready stated that this is going to be dealt with in the beta. In the meantime, you may want to check this vid: | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
Standard roach/infestor macro game, no attacks until like forever, I lose lategame to a baserace (he managed to fungal about 20 infestors............shit) http://drop.sc/265935 Not sure what I should do against someone who's going ultra/infestor/corruptor. In this game my shit multitasking resulted in his corruptors demolishing all my air, but that wouldn't happen normally. How can I ever move out? Do I have to make a million spines? Turns out the counter to infestors is fungal, forgot about that and went up to nearly 30 infestors. Figured I'd have unlimited energy, wasn't expecting to lose them all for free. Missed the transfuse button because of bad hotkeys :C but really, what the hell do I do when I play against someone who'll never fight my army straight up? Even if I mine out the whole map, he can just baserace. It's really obnoxious and I have no idea what to do. No amount of spine/spore will stop a maxed out roach/infestor/ultra/corruptor army, and his moves at about 6 times the speed of mine. Are broodlords not viable on a map like Daybreak? I'm totally lost. My play was/is a little off today, and as a result I'm 0-5 which is no fun. Dying to stupid shit that I know how to defend, *sigh* Edit: My concern with ultras is that they're weak and expensive; you can only afford to transition into them if you haven't traded roach armies a lot. So perhaps if I don't have a lot of big fights I just go for ultras? :S | ||
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Giganthrax
Serbia19 Posts
Just tried doing llama's tactic after being pylon blocked, tried to make a secret expansion and go mutas, but protoss scouted, found my secret base, and that was GG after that. Llama's tactic won't really work unless I've hidden my scout drone at the start (which is kinda impossible, seeing as he'll see my scout drone and know it's out there somewhere). :/ | ||
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Giganthrax
Serbia19 Posts
I'm platinum and, as it is right now, I'm completely at a loss as to how to win vs these two races. The only wins I get are via all-ins or allinish timing attacks, or if the opponent makes a lot of mistakes. Basically, it just feels like every match against these two is a horrible uphill battle. The problem obviously lies with me, but I'm at the point when I feel I'm just repeating same losses over and over again. Which is why I need someone to point me to a strong and safe macro styles to use in ZvP and ZvT. | ||
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heha
Australia425 Posts
On October 19 2012 11:22 Giganthrax wrote: Could someone please give me links to some good ZvT/ZvP macro guides? I'm platinum and, as it is right now, I'm completely at a loss as to how to win vs these two races. The only wins I get are via all-ins or allinish timing attacks, or if the opponent makes a lot of mistakes. Basically, it just feels like every match against these two is a horrible uphill battle. The problem obviously lies with me, but I'm at the point when I feel I'm just repeating same losses over and over again. Which is why I need someone to point me to a strong and safe macro styles to use in ZvP and ZvT. Hey man, just commenting on your pylon block comment from earlier. If the protoss is competent, and pulls off the three pylon block, you're dead. They can get up 2 bases faster than you can, and shouldn't die to things like proxy hatch/nydus. Your only hope is to learn when a 12/13 forge finishes, and have a drone patrolling the ramp at that time. Safe macro styles atm in ZvP and ZvT are: ZvP: 14/15pool hatch queen hatch (third) Get 2 gasses at 6:00, first 200 gas towards ling speed/lair Get roach warren + evo at 7:00 Go from there ZvT: 6 queen opener, hatch first, keep double making queens until you have 6. The gas timings range from after the 3rd/4th queen, to after the third, which can be put down before/after the 5th/6th queens. Afraid I can't be more help  | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
6:30 (6:45 if forge first) you need a gas count. 2? 6:30 roach warren, lair first unless he's 7gating 3? Standard macro, 7:15 roach warren/evo to be safe. Lair first, mass drones 4? 2 base tech all in. Sentry/immortal, blink, colo, double stargate. 7:15 roach warren/evo, 8:00 macro hatch, mass lings after 68 drones tops. 4 gas for quicker timings, try to get fast infestors. Infestor/ling/roach wins against sentry/immo and blink. | ||
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Luzun
Brazil4 Posts
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heha
Australia425 Posts
On October 19 2012 12:06 Luzun wrote: Ok. I'm a high master zerg (Main account with 850 points +350 bonus pool and smurf with around 1250), and right now I can't play zvz. I have no clue how to play. I mean, I do the standard stuff, roach, infestor and hydra, but I can't win, especially vs early muta agression. I'm a very macro oriented player, and I'd be really happy if you guys could help me. I don't think posting a replay of mine would help, because I'd like to reformulate everything concerning zvz. Thanks. :/ Sorry but without a replay there's not a lot of help we can give. I suppose we can try theorycrafting. 1. How many queens do you get at the start? 2. What lair tech do you normally choose? 3. How are you at dealing with heavy ling-bling pressure (1/2 base), or roach timings. 4. Do you die because you're too greedy, or not greedy enough? | ||
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
On October 19 2012 12:06 Luzun wrote: Ok. I'm a high master zerg (Main account with 850 points +350 bonus pool and smurf with around 1250), and right now I can't play zvz. I have no clue how to play. I mean, I do the standard stuff, roach, infestor and hydra, but I can't win, especially vs early muta agression. I'm a very macro oriented player, and I'd be really happy if you guys could help me. I don't think posting a replay of mine would help, because I'd like to reformulate everything concerning zvz. Thanks. Was in the same spot some time ago now I am doing a good job in zvz. Do you want to open with muta or stick to standard roach/infestor? | ||
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MiTakko
Canada15 Posts
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On October 20 2012 00:31 MiTakko wrote: So yesterday i played a zvp, and i got beaten down by a 4gate, sounds odd i know..heres what happened. It was on daybreak, i try to 15pool hatch, the guy pylons my nat, so i take my expo at 3rd, then my ov arrives at his nat and sees no buildings. At this point i didn know what to do, my expo was so far away, so i decided to take my third anyways and try my best to hold whatever thats coming. Then i realized that i have nowhere to put up a spine, spine at third would have no point, and spine at main doesn seem to work that well..and my lings had no speed. Ive held a 4gate with 3 hatch before, but i wasnt forced to take my expo at my third so i could spine up with lings. So what should i do? And what if this happens on a 4 players map since nobody drone scouts anymore. For this reason I think you need to drone scout on 4 player maps. Also delay putting down your 3rd until your overlord gets to the front of his nat... this should tell you immediately whether or not he opened gate-1st or forge-1st, and if it's gate-1st then use 4 ligns to clear your nat to build there and take your gas. | ||
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