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On October 20 2012 00:31 MiTakko wrote:
So yesterday i played a zvp, and i got beaten down by a 4gate, sounds odd i know..heres what happened. It was on daybreak, i try to 15pool hatch, the guy pylons my nat, so i take my expo at 3rd, then my ov arrives at his nat and sees no buildings. At this point i didn know what to do, my expo was so far away, so i decided to take my third anyways and try my best to hold whatever thats coming. Then i realized that i have nowhere to put up a spine, spine at third would have no point, and spine at main doesn seem to work that well..and my lings had no speed. Ive held a 4gate with 3 hatch before, but i wasnt forced to take my expo at my third so i could spine up with lings. So what should i do? And what if this happens on a 4 players map since nobody drone scouts anymore.
In situations like that, I think it is absolutely critical that you keep the 4 gates pylon from going up. If you keep the pylon from finishing you slow down the push long enough to stop it.
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On October 19 2012 11:22 Giganthrax wrote:
Could someone please give me links to some good ZvT/ZvP macro guides?
I'm platinum and, as it is right now, I'm completely at a loss as to how to win vs these two races. The only wins I get are via all-ins or allinish timing attacks, or if the opponent makes a lot of mistakes. Basically, it just feels like every match against these two is a horrible uphill battle. The problem obviously lies with me, but I'm at the point when I feel I'm just repeating same losses over and over again. Which is why I need someone to point me to a strong and safe macro styles to use in ZvP and ZvT.
This was posted just a few pages ago, but you should search for "[G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide" for great analysis of ZvP and ZvT in particular. For example:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340023
Goes into both MUs in great detail.
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Hey guys,
I've already looked at the "safe builds" page,
I'm a r2 diamond protoss player who wants to try zerg and I was wondering if those are what is standard among zerg these days? Or if that is outdated and there are more recent builds that are more "standard" nowadays?
Thanks.
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^
Check out belial's guides, just search "[G] Belial"
They cover ZvT and ZvP, but keep in mind Zerg isn't really a "build order" oriented race. It's scouting, reacting, and having a safe enough opener while not being too defensive.
All the threads linked from the safe builds page are from like, 2010/early 2011, so very outdated. I'll quickly go over ZvZ, because that's really not covered in any recent guide:
There are a few openers in the ZvZ early game.
1) There's cheese early pools (6-9), easily defended. There's guides on this topic.
2) There's 10 pool aggression, which counters hatch first but is behind every other opener
3) There's 15 hatch opener, which is the best IMO. A 9.5 drone scout on 2 player maps will get there in time so you can reactively go 15 pool should you scout a fast pool (pool before overlord, before ~1:30)
4) There's 15 pool -> 16 hatch openers, safe vs everything but weak vs hatch first.
To put things simply:
6-9 pool < 10 pool < 15 pool < 15 hatch < 10 pool
(6-9 pool loses to every opener, then it's a simple triangle like stargate < twilight < robo < stargate in PvP)
Generally builds take a fast gas. 14/14 is fine, but I like to go hatch + pool before gas, because I'm confident in defending any all in even with the delayed gas. Honestly, opening 14/14 is fine until you start to actually be at a disadvantage from playing slightly too safely.
5:00 spine is mandatory
Overlord or ling poke at 5:15 to 5:30 to see if he makes drones for his natural. If there's <4 drones at 5:30 then be wary of a ling/bane all in!
Ling speed -> bane nest for defensive banes. Here, there's 4 styles of midgame.
1) 2 base mutalisk
This style relies on dealing economic damage to your opponent, and is risky vs roach-based all ins. Basically if you don't kill the third, you've lost the game because your third is so late. Scout for roach/ling all ins, scout for mass roach all ins, scout for his muta play (carapace upgrades are AMAZING, never pick a fight you might lose, never micro mutas during fights). You can either try to end the game with mass muta (risky), or transition into macro by making only 8-10 mutas, killing all overlords on the map, and taking your third + going into roach/infestor.
2) 2 base roach/infestor with upgrades
Very strong, macro-oriented style. It's basically a 2 base infestor rush, be sure to scout any all ins coming and react accordingly. Take your third when he does. Try to hit a timing with 2/2 and a maxed roach/hydra/infestor army. Add in hydras at ~160-180 food, your choice really.
3) Fast third before lair
Get 4-6 banelings for defence, fast third base (6:00-6:30), then single evo + lair + gasses + roach warren, follow timings based on what he does. I don't really recommend this style, it's hard to pull off and requires scouting. I personally think it's really fucking strong, but it's risky vs all ins. If you suspect roach/ling all in you need a fast roach warren and some spines + banes. It's okay to lose your third; you're ahead in drones, upgrades, and tech (lair should be started)
Generally you want to end the game with roach/hydra/infestor aggression. As many infestors as possible, ~10 hydras, rest of supply roaches. Stay around 70 drones, try to get a fast-ish hive at least for 3/3. Drops are great, nydus are great too.
Overlords should be in position to scout his natural gas timings, natural drone count, and ALL units that leave his base.
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4) There's 15 pool -> 16 hatch openers, safe vs everything but weak vs hatch first.
I agree with what you said, but pool before hatch isn't weak vs. hatch first at all.
Basically both players are even since the one going pool first gets his first inject, but the one going hatch first gets his hatch and second queen a bit ealier.
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On October 20 2012 09:10 Riverhoover wrote:Show nested quote +
4) There's 15 pool -> 16 hatch openers, safe vs everything but weak vs hatch first.
I agree with what you said, but pool before hatch isn't weak vs. hatch first at all. Basically both players are even since the one going pool first gets his first inject, but the one going hatch first gets his hatch and second queen a bit ealier.
Yeah, but hatch first is better than a 15 pool
It's nothing near a build order win like 10 pool 8/12 drone all in vs hatch first, but it is a disadvantage. Also it gets a very late gas compared to most other builds
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It isn't really. It's probably one drone at most (correct me if I'm totally wrong please).
But what you said is that pool first is WEAK to hatch first which is just wrong.
The benefits you get from going pool first (safe vs. 10 pool and basically vs. everything else as you said) exceed the disadvantages (in case there are any).
I usually go 15/15/15 either way, so the gas timing is exactly the same and I don't know why you would delay your gas when your pool is ahead of your opponents (earlier lings -> earlier ling speed..bla)
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On October 20 2012 09:34 Riverhoover wrote:
It isn't really. It's probably one drone at most (correct me if I'm totally wrong please).
But what you said is that pool first is WEAK to hatch first which is just wrong.
The benefits you get from going pool first (safe vs. 10 pool and basically vs. everything else as you said) exceed the disadvantages (in case there are any).
I usually go 15/15/15 either way, so the gas timing is exactly the same and I don't know why you would delay your gas when your pool is ahead of your opponents (earlier lings -> earlier ling speed..bla)
I think it's a few drones, not just one. It's a real disadvantage, though, being down 2-3 drones that early. It's slightly better than 14/14, but it's behind--with a later hatch, how can it not be? The earlier inject evens out with the double inject that hatch first gets (roughly), then there's natural larvae production that puts your ahead. Which is why you might try to delay your gas, to make up that gap. I don't know anyone who'd say that 15p/16h is even with 15h; it doesn't need to make up as much lost ground as 14/14, but certainly it's between 14/14 and 15h in terms of econ.
The benefit is not losing to early pools and 10pools. I literally have not faced a 10p this season, though I only have 70ish games played total (so perhaps 20 zvzs, and thus expected value of less than 5% of games are 10p. actual value 0%).
I keep hearing that some pros use 15p/16h as their standard build in zvz. But I really don't think it's a build for anything but anti-10p.
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On October 20 2012 18:12 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:34 Riverhoover wrote:
It isn't really. It's probably one drone at most (correct me if I'm totally wrong please).
But what you said is that pool first is WEAK to hatch first which is just wrong.
The benefits you get from going pool first (safe vs. 10 pool and basically vs. everything else as you said) exceed the disadvantages (in case there are any).
I usually go 15/15/15 either way, so the gas timing is exactly the same and I don't know why you would delay your gas when your pool is ahead of your opponents (earlier lings -> earlier ling speed..bla) I think it's a few drones, not just one. It's a real disadvantage, though, being down 2-3 drones that early. It's slightly better than 14/14, but it's behind--with a later hatch, how can it not be? The earlier inject evens out with the double inject that hatch first gets (roughly), then there's natural larvae production that puts your ahead. Which is why you might try to delay your gas, to make up that gap. I don't know anyone who'd say that 15p/16h is even with 15h; it doesn't need to make up as much lost ground as 14/14, but certainly it's between 14/14 and 15h in terms of econ. The benefit is not losing to early pools and 10pools. I literally have not faced a 10p this season, though I only have 70ish games played total (so perhaps 20 zvzs, and thus expected value of less than 5% of games are 10p. actual value 0%). I keep hearing that some pros use 15p/16h as their standard build in zvz. But I really don't think it's a build for anything but anti-10p.
Nah Riverhoover is right, 15p is almost as good as 15h. The only real disadvantage is the ~30 secs later ling speed but I'd rather take that than just build order lose games vs 10p (maybe you are lucky that you dont face them at all). I guess ppl still have the mentality of 14/14 vs hatch first which was indeed a big difference.
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So has anyone found a reasonable counter to Immortal sentry bullshit rather than being lucky that he fucked up his forcefields (which is impossible when you have like 40+ of them).
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On October 20 2012 20:33 syriuszonito wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 18:12 6xFPCs wrote:On October 20 2012 09:34 Riverhoover wrote:
It isn't really. It's probably one drone at most (correct me if I'm totally wrong please).
But what you said is that pool first is WEAK to hatch first which is just wrong.
The benefits you get from going pool first (safe vs. 10 pool and basically vs. everything else as you said) exceed the disadvantages (in case there are any).
I usually go 15/15/15 either way, so the gas timing is exactly the same and I don't know why you would delay your gas when your pool is ahead of your opponents (earlier lings -> earlier ling speed..bla) I think it's a few drones, not just one. It's a real disadvantage, though, being down 2-3 drones that early. It's slightly better than 14/14, but it's behind--with a later hatch, how can it not be? The earlier inject evens out with the double inject that hatch first gets (roughly), then there's natural larvae production that puts your ahead. Which is why you might try to delay your gas, to make up that gap. I don't know anyone who'd say that 15p/16h is even with 15h; it doesn't need to make up as much lost ground as 14/14, but certainly it's between 14/14 and 15h in terms of econ. The benefit is not losing to early pools and 10pools. I literally have not faced a 10p this season, though I only have 70ish games played total (so perhaps 20 zvzs, and thus expected value of less than 5% of games are 10p. actual value 0%). I keep hearing that some pros use 15p/16h as their standard build in zvz. But I really don't think it's a build for anything but anti-10p. Nah Riverhoover is right, 15p is almost as good as 15h. The only real disadvantage is the ~30 secs later ling speed but I'd rather take that than just build order lose games vs 10p (maybe you are lucky that you dont face them at all). I guess ppl still have the mentality of 14/14 vs hatch first which was indeed a big difference.
15pool with no drone scout is prett much even with a 15 hatch with drone scout, depending on when the scout is.
I'm pretty sure 15 hatch 9 scout is worse than 15 pool. A later scout is better, but it may not be early enough to actually react to anything.
blind 15 hatch is better than a 15 pool, but blind 15 hatch shouldn't be a real build.
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Basetrade with roach/ling and mass spines in natural or play muta with massing spines. I don't think you can stop it head on unless they are totally awful and don't ff at all..
That's what I heard. Actually I never won against an immortal/sentry all in even if I was 50-something supply ahead.
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On October 20 2012 22:49 Oboeman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 20:33 syriuszonito wrote:On October 20 2012 18:12 6xFPCs wrote:On October 20 2012 09:34 Riverhoover wrote:
It isn't really. It's probably one drone at most (correct me if I'm totally wrong please).
But what you said is that pool first is WEAK to hatch first which is just wrong.
The benefits you get from going pool first (safe vs. 10 pool and basically vs. everything else as you said) exceed the disadvantages (in case there are any).
I usually go 15/15/15 either way, so the gas timing is exactly the same and I don't know why you would delay your gas when your pool is ahead of your opponents (earlier lings -> earlier ling speed..bla) I think it's a few drones, not just one. It's a real disadvantage, though, being down 2-3 drones that early. It's slightly better than 14/14, but it's behind--with a later hatch, how can it not be? The earlier inject evens out with the double inject that hatch first gets (roughly), then there's natural larvae production that puts your ahead. Which is why you might try to delay your gas, to make up that gap. I don't know anyone who'd say that 15p/16h is even with 15h; it doesn't need to make up as much lost ground as 14/14, but certainly it's between 14/14 and 15h in terms of econ. The benefit is not losing to early pools and 10pools. I literally have not faced a 10p this season, though I only have 70ish games played total (so perhaps 20 zvzs, and thus expected value of less than 5% of games are 10p. actual value 0%). I keep hearing that some pros use 15p/16h as their standard build in zvz. But I really don't think it's a build for anything but anti-10p. Nah Riverhoover is right, 15p is almost as good as 15h. The only real disadvantage is the ~30 secs later ling speed but I'd rather take that than just build order lose games vs 10p (maybe you are lucky that you dont face them at all). I guess ppl still have the mentality of 14/14 vs hatch first which was indeed a big difference. 15pool with no drone scout is prett much even with a 15 hatch with drone scout, depending on when the scout is. I'm pretty sure 15 hatch 9 scout is worse than 15 pool. A later scout is better, but it may not be early enough to actually react to anything. blind 15 hatch is better than a 15 pool, but blind 15 hatch shouldn't be a real build.
I don't even think you have to dronescout. At least I don't do it anymore except for when I'm facing a random.
-Terran 1rax CC, CC first or 2rax (or something else you can't see, even if you dronescout cause of the marine). 2rax is not too good if you control right. When you scout them with your lings and they don't have an expansion, they're most likely gonna have one or two gas geysers and you should prepare by habing lings constantly poking/ building extra queens and/or spines/spores if need be.
-Protoss will most likely FFE or gateway-fe and you can fly your overlord over their natural to see gas timings or army conposition. Good thing about dronescouting in this MU is that you can delay their nexus if they decide to play nexus first.
-Zerg...well, I play 15 pool on every map nowadays, don't need it^^
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On October 20 2012 21:26 Hing wrote:
So has anyone found a reasonable counter to Immortal sentry bullshit rather than being lucky that he fucked up his forcefields (which is impossible when you have like 40+ of them).
Yeah opening with hydras gives you almost a free win vs this all in (and many others as well). I know ppl are gonna say "omg zlol hydras so bad insta lose" but actually if you play smart they are pertty good, especially when 90% of tosses just do a 2 base all ins.
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On October 20 2012 23:13 syriuszonito wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 21:26 Hing wrote:
So has anyone found a reasonable counter to Immortal sentry bullshit rather than being lucky that he fucked up his forcefields (which is impossible when you have like 40+ of them). Yeah opening with hydras gives you almost a free win vs this all in (and many others as well). I know ppl are gonna say "omg zlol hydras so bad insta lose" but actually if you play smart they are pertty good, especially when 90% of tosses just do a 2 base all ins.
With 4 gases? Or do you take a 5th or even 6th?
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On October 21 2012 00:03 Riverhoover wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 23:13 syriuszonito wrote:On October 20 2012 21:26 Hing wrote:
So has anyone found a reasonable counter to Immortal sentry bullshit rather than being lucky that he fucked up his forcefields (which is impossible when you have like 40+ of them). Yeah opening with hydras gives you almost a free win vs this all in (and many others as well). I know ppl are gonna say "omg zlol hydras so bad insta lose" but actually if you play smart they are pertty good, especially when 90% of tosses just do a 2 base all ins. With 4 gases? Or do you take a 5th or even 6th?
5:30 2 gases
7:00 2 more
skip the evo chamber and roach warren, first 100 to lair, then ling speed. Once lair is done (8min) make hydra den and overseer, this way you will know exactly what is coming. If any kind of a 2 base all in just make range for hydras and collect your win with hydra/ling, if he attempts to take third you can either pressure with ~16 hydras/lings (works very good vs sentry/immortal toss will almost never have colossus tech to defend this easily) and tech/ take 4th base behind it or dont build any hydras and just go for a macro game.
This is ofc when you see gases taken on natural, if no gases till 6:45 build roach warren/evo and play a standard game because its very hard to defend 7g without roaches.
can provide a replay if needed
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Since I started Starcraft I have had issues holding off early game pressure. I have a reasonably high winrate in longer games, where I don't do stupid stuff (Run headlong into a terran turtle 6 times  ). However I just completed 2 matches which I feel well define my inability to hold off early game pressure. Below are 2 replays, any suggestions would be appreciated.
http://drop.sc/266345
I scouted no expansion, and a few gateways expecting early pressure, and immediately came home and built a bunch of zerglings, 3 spines and continued droning. I know that most of my engagements here were poor but is there anything beyond that I am missing?
http://drop.sc/266346
I scouted a no wall off barracks building and expected some kind of early marine pressure 6-10 marines. So I again built 4 spines and started pumping zerglings. He hit before the spines were completely up and I held off the first wave only to die to the second. Again suggestions would be appreciated.
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On October 20 2012 22:49 Oboeman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 20:33 syriuszonito wrote:On October 20 2012 18:12 6xFPCs wrote:On October 20 2012 09:34 Riverhoover wrote:
It isn't really. It's probably one drone at most (correct me if I'm totally wrong please).
But what you said is that pool first is WEAK to hatch first which is just wrong.
The benefits you get from going pool first (safe vs. 10 pool and basically vs. everything else as you said) exceed the disadvantages (in case there are any).
I usually go 15/15/15 either way, so the gas timing is exactly the same and I don't know why you would delay your gas when your pool is ahead of your opponents (earlier lings -> earlier ling speed..bla) I think it's a few drones, not just one. It's a real disadvantage, though, being down 2-3 drones that early. It's slightly better than 14/14, but it's behind--with a later hatch, how can it not be? The earlier inject evens out with the double inject that hatch first gets (roughly), then there's natural larvae production that puts your ahead. Which is why you might try to delay your gas, to make up that gap. I don't know anyone who'd say that 15p/16h is even with 15h; it doesn't need to make up as much lost ground as 14/14, but certainly it's between 14/14 and 15h in terms of econ. The benefit is not losing to early pools and 10pools. I literally have not faced a 10p this season, though I only have 70ish games played total (so perhaps 20 zvzs, and thus expected value of less than 5% of games are 10p. actual value 0%). I keep hearing that some pros use 15p/16h as their standard build in zvz. But I really don't think it's a build for anything but anti-10p. Nah Riverhoover is right, 15p is almost as good as 15h. The only real disadvantage is the ~30 secs later ling speed but I'd rather take that than just build order lose games vs 10p (maybe you are lucky that you dont face them at all). I guess ppl still have the mentality of 14/14 vs hatch first which was indeed a big difference. 15pool with no drone scout is prett much even with a 15 hatch with drone scout, depending on when the scout is. I'm pretty sure 15 hatch 9 scout is worse than 15 pool. A later scout is better, but it may not be early enough to actually react to anything. blind 15 hatch is better than a 15 pool, but blind 15 hatch shouldn't be a real build.
Ok, I'm willing to defer to you guys on this. My ZvZ understanding is not up to par, what I said is based on my experience, which is exclusively 15h drone scout with 10th drone.
Oboe, do you use 15p 16h as your standard ZvZ build then? I'm more curious than ever about it; I've been avoiding it because 2 queen block + spine just seems like the cornerstone of safe ZvZ, and I'm hesitant about anything that messes with that timing.
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On October 21 2012 15:48 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 22:49 Oboeman wrote:On October 20 2012 20:33 syriuszonito wrote:On October 20 2012 18:12 6xFPCs wrote:On October 20 2012 09:34 Riverhoover wrote:
It isn't really. It's probably one drone at most (correct me if I'm totally wrong please).
But what you said is that pool first is WEAK to hatch first which is just wrong.
The benefits you get from going pool first (safe vs. 10 pool and basically vs. everything else as you said) exceed the disadvantages (in case there are any).
I usually go 15/15/15 either way, so the gas timing is exactly the same and I don't know why you would delay your gas when your pool is ahead of your opponents (earlier lings -> earlier ling speed..bla) I think it's a few drones, not just one. It's a real disadvantage, though, being down 2-3 drones that early. It's slightly better than 14/14, but it's behind--with a later hatch, how can it not be? The earlier inject evens out with the double inject that hatch first gets (roughly), then there's natural larvae production that puts your ahead. Which is why you might try to delay your gas, to make up that gap. I don't know anyone who'd say that 15p/16h is even with 15h; it doesn't need to make up as much lost ground as 14/14, but certainly it's between 14/14 and 15h in terms of econ. The benefit is not losing to early pools and 10pools. I literally have not faced a 10p this season, though I only have 70ish games played total (so perhaps 20 zvzs, and thus expected value of less than 5% of games are 10p. actual value 0%). I keep hearing that some pros use 15p/16h as their standard build in zvz. But I really don't think it's a build for anything but anti-10p. Nah Riverhoover is right, 15p is almost as good as 15h. The only real disadvantage is the ~30 secs later ling speed but I'd rather take that than just build order lose games vs 10p (maybe you are lucky that you dont face them at all). I guess ppl still have the mentality of 14/14 vs hatch first which was indeed a big difference. 15pool with no drone scout is prett much even with a 15 hatch with drone scout, depending on when the scout is. I'm pretty sure 15 hatch 9 scout is worse than 15 pool. A later scout is better, but it may not be early enough to actually react to anything. blind 15 hatch is better than a 15 pool, but blind 15 hatch shouldn't be a real build. Ok, I'm willing to defer to you guys on this. My ZvZ understanding is not up to par, what I said is based on my experience, which is exclusively 15h drone scout with 10th drone. Oboe, do you use 15p 16h as your standard ZvZ build then? I'm more curious than ever about it; I've been avoiding it because 2 queen block + spine just seems like the cornerstone of safe ZvZ, and I'm hesitant about anything that messes with that timing.
I go 15p/16h most of the time yes.
As long as there is no delay on either first or second queen, you can still block your ramp before 14/14 banelings would arrive. The spinecrawler is naturally later, but you have the option of starting it in your main and walking it down instead of starting it in your natural. You can go baneling nest before speed if it looks like he took gas much earlier, or go speed first if his gas was about the same time or later. The same rules apply.
On 2p maps, I would consider going 15 hatch with a late scout, but instead of going straight to his base, look for his 2nd overlord with your drone. I don't know the timing, but as long as you see the 2nd overlord before your place the hatch you can do it safely. I think this lets you get away with a later scout, in which case 15 hatch is still be ahead.
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Ive been wondering, in all match ups, what is a optimal way of managing infestor energy? How many fungals and when to spam eggs, lately ive been watching streams and some times sees no fungals in zvz, just all ITs, i tend to spam eggs only zvt mech, and fungals the repair squad. Just some feedbacks, thanks
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EPT
