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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
@Post Above
Getting 3 gasses is acceptable, it just gives you a heavier ling composition. I actually prefer this style to the almost pure roach 4 gas. The 4th gas can also allow you to get other upgrades such as burrow, or roach move burrow.
Also, you are dead right about that 200/200 off 3 base. You shouldn't transition into the lategame style if you choose this style.
I think the best transition is into infestors. You just add them on to your roach ling army, and then if for some reason the game continues, you can transition more easily into broodlord-infestor because you are already half way there.
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Thanks Velvex and HighLach, I'll try to be more aggressive at multiple fronts and add on infestors as soon as I deny his third first time and hopefully break his 2 base defense. 
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Zheryn, you don't actually have to bust down his 2 base defense. You can starve him by denying him his third, like a contain. If you do contain him though, make sure you tech to infestors as discussed earlier. It's hard to beat a 2 base protoss army with just roach ling if they go all-in. Infestors do wonders.
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I have a question. I have been having a problem deciding which strategy to use against mech in ZvT. I have been using strategies such as: Mass Expand Defense to Broodlords, Heavy Roach Midgame with drops, and recently using ling infestor ultralisk. I really enjoy the last style. Ultralisks are surprisingly good against mech.
What are other peoples' ways of dealing with mech in ZvT?
Also, what problems have you guys had with ling/infestor/ultralisk in specific?
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On October 23 2012 06:24 HighLach wrote:
Zheryn, you don't actually have to bust down his 2 base defense. You can starve him by denying him his third, like a contain. If you do contain him though, make sure you tech to infestors as discussed earlier. It's hard to beat a 2 base protoss army with just roach ling if they go all-in. Infestors do wonders.
Yeah, I should try to add infestors earlier to be able to keep him contained. In the replay I posted, I just teched up while delaying his third for as long as possible and then retreating when he had a scary enough army for my roach ling. I often get in to the feeling like I have to get brood lords after he gets colossus, but I'll try to fight some more with his army with roach/ling/infestor if I have an economic advantage and see how it goes
@Above: I do my standard 2 base double upgrade opener with 6 queens, then go muta/bling since I fail at scouting and just do it vs everything. I'd go for a faster infestation pit if I knew he's meching tho :D Ling/ultra feels good, and banelings if he's low on tanks. Here's an example of how to NOT play vs mech, have a laugh at the most cost-ineffecient trades ever  http://drop.sc/266387
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I honestly wish that thors didn't hard counter mutas so much. It's okay when no one has upgrades, but the thors attack upgrade just makes mutas drastically worse.
Also, try to engage the toss from multiple angles. You can beat colossus with just roach ling, you have to have good positioning. Taking a group of roaches and focus firing the colossus with a good flank will cause him to 1. Try to micro it(it wont be firing when its moving) or 2. Let it die.
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Hey Guys
i recently joined a Clan to practice better against some builds etc. Usually iam playing against high masters.
Most of us r struggleing to hold the sentry immortal all in. But we have another damn Problem.
Most players go Nexus First into 6:30 3th/4th Gas into 2base Sentry immortal all in.
I know how long to drone, when to build what.
But one guy in our clan (1500pt master) isnt playing that style. He goes for 1 Gate expand with a lot of early pressure, 4 Gate Pressure into Immortal All in.
Cause of the early aggression i cant really take a 3rd. Also it feels like, i can never drone.. Iam in everything behind. If i build units he just defend it with 1 canon and sentry. - If i build drones he will punish me with 4 Gate Pressure.
Tried it with mass lings + infestors. But i was allready dead when the first infestor pop. Also my econmy was shitty as hell..
Whats your usual game plan against this style? I guess, if i turtle a bit, he just takes an easy 3rd and crush me later with an muuuch better economy.
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On October 23 2012 15:05 pAnatiC wrote:Hey Guys i recently joined a Clan to practice better against some builds etc. Usually iam playing against high masters. Most of us r struggleing to hold the sentry immortal all in. But we have another damn Problem. Most players go Nexus First into 6:30 3th/4th Gas into 2base Sentry immortal all in. I know how long to drone, when to build what. But one guy in our clan (1500pt master) isnt playing that style. He goes for 1 Gate expand with a lot of early pressure, 4 Gate Pressure into Immortal All in. Cause of the early aggression i cant really take a 3rd. Also it feels like, i can never drone.. Iam in everything behind. If i build units he just defend it with 1 canon and sentry. - If i build drones he will punish me with 4 Gate Pressure. Tried it with mass lings + infestors. But i was allready dead when the first infestor pop. Also my econmy was shitty as hell.. Whats your usual game plan against this style? I guess, if i turtle a bit, he just takes an easy 3rd and crush me later with an muuuch better economy.
I open 2 base mutas against it. Fully saturate your 2 base, take third and mass some lings. With ling spine you will be able to hold off any pressure from him. Once the mutas are out saturate third, take 4th and start being agressive with muta ling. If you do it properly he will take some serious econ damage and you should be able to overwhelm him with muta ling with your superior econ.
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Canada16217 Posts
On October 23 2012 14:19 HighLach wrote:
I have a question. I have been having a problem deciding which strategy to use against mech in ZvT. I have been using strategies such as: Mass Expand Defense to Broodlords, Heavy Roach Midgame with drops, and recently using ling infestor ultralisk. I really enjoy the last style. Ultralisks are surprisingly good against mech.
What are other peoples' ways of dealing with mech in ZvT?
Also, what problems have you guys had with ling/infestor/ultralisk in specific?
The key to defeating mech is having a better economy and trading armies before they are maxed, or getting your ultimate late-game army. You can do simple roach attacks if they are only building thors, if they have siege tank-hellion, roach drops are a good idea. Ling/infestor ultralisk is a good comp, in most situations and you can easily tech switch into bl infestor, there are no major problems with ling/infestor/ultralisk(other than obvious hard counters: marauder,siege tank), it's mobile, as well the army itself is very strong when you engage properly.
Roach drops and roach attacks probably the most effective ways of dealing with mech.
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On October 23 2012 17:43 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 14:19 HighLach wrote:
I have a question. I have been having a problem deciding which strategy to use against mech in ZvT. I have been using strategies such as: Mass Expand Defense to Broodlords, Heavy Roach Midgame with drops, and recently using ling infestor ultralisk. I really enjoy the last style. Ultralisks are surprisingly good against mech.
What are other peoples' ways of dealing with mech in ZvT?
Also, what problems have you guys had with ling/infestor/ultralisk in specific? The key to defeating mech is having a better economy and trading armies before they are maxed, or getting your ultimate late-game army. You can do simple roach attacks if they are only building thors, if they have siege tank-hellion, roach drops are a good idea. Ling/infestor ultralisk is a good comp, in most situations and you can easily tech switch into bl infestor, there are no major problems with ling/infestor/ultralisk(other than obvious hard counters: marauder,siege tank), it's mobile, as well the army itself is very strong when you engage properly. Roach drops and roach attacks probably the most effective ways of dealing with mech.
My opinion is that you absolutely cannot face a maxed mech army with any lategame composition. Techswitching might be workable, but one-to-one armies just does not end well for the zerg. I have never managed to win a 200 vs 200 fight against mech with BL-infestor (haven't tried ultralisks, personally). Even if other masters players are able to, I still think trading out armies, roach vs anything costing gas, while ballooning in econ (win a fight, add a base) is the right way to go.
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I really want to use banelings in my ZvP which usually means ling/bling/muta. I know dimaga uses this style but questions i have is that do i open 2 or 3 base and what time should i get lair and the gases? I've won and lost doing 2 and 3 base but which is more effective? I dont really use the 3rd except for larva. or some replays could help for timings. don't know where to find Dimaga's or anyone else's shit
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also lol what's the problem with going ling infestor against P?
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IMO the best muta/ling/bane VOD out there is DRG vs Alicia MLG Spring Championship, Finals Game 1.
Holy shit. Like, he played perfectly, and when he finally sniped all the sentries he transitioned into mass ling/bane with 30 mutas to literally rape up the rest of his shit. Sorry for the language, but that's the only way to describe it. Alicia opened with a safe macro build, got blink quick (but went for DTs before storm, admittedly), and still got destroyed once his sentries died (which didn't take too long, mutas are powerful in the 30's).
http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/events/17-spring-championship#1423/1502/1;89946
(casted by Tastosis )
Edit: Okay fine, I'll actually answer the questions too:
Yeah, 3 base is good. Rule out 2 base all in, skip roach warren if you can (ie. no gateway pressure or sentry/immortal or anything crazy). I'd try to kill your opponent with muta/ling/bane once you reach max + 4/5 bases (90 drones). Fast double evo is crucial for any sort of zergling-based style.
Ling/infestor does work. Not as an endgame composition, but I use it at mid masters and almost always get a terrific lead by killing their third. Granted, I usually face 2 base all ins that fail, but man is it a good way to secure a win. Just get 10-15 roaches to deal with any number of zealots, then start hive after 4-8 infestors (stylistic choice). By the time hive/GS is done, you'll have 16-20 infestors, which is the magic number. Not to mention you can spawn SO MANY MARINES and kill his army or at least force him to sac his third. Never use all the infestor energy, never lose any infestors (burrow is crucial). If you trade lings while keeping the infestors and roaches alive then you're trading minerals for gas and energy, which is always a good trade against Protoss, especially when your hive tech is on the way. I like to aggressively expand because of the mobility of the Zergling and defensive power of the infestor. If he attacks, he's all in. He either kills my army and wins the game or gets crushed by fungals, IT, and mass ling/a few roaches.
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ATTENTION FELLOW ZERGS! I have discovered a new Zerg wall that does NOT require any units to stand guard! I already posted a thread on this.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=377713
Edit: Some of you may know already but a lot of Zergs out there do not, and I think it is my duty to tell them about this.
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On October 24 2012 06:25 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 17:43 NovemberstOrm wrote:On October 23 2012 14:19 HighLach wrote:
I have a question. I have been having a problem deciding which strategy to use against mech in ZvT. I have been using strategies such as: Mass Expand Defense to Broodlords, Heavy Roach Midgame with drops, and recently using ling infestor ultralisk. I really enjoy the last style. Ultralisks are surprisingly good against mech.
What are other peoples' ways of dealing with mech in ZvT?
Also, what problems have you guys had with ling/infestor/ultralisk in specific? The key to defeating mech is having a better economy and trading armies before they are maxed, or getting your ultimate late-game army. You can do simple roach attacks if they are only building thors, if they have siege tank-hellion, roach drops are a good idea. Ling/infestor ultralisk is a good comp, in most situations and you can easily tech switch into bl infestor, there are no major problems with ling/infestor/ultralisk(other than obvious hard counters: marauder,siege tank), it's mobile, as well the army itself is very strong when you engage properly. Roach drops and roach attacks probably the most effective ways of dealing with mech. My opinion is that you absolutely cannot face a maxed mech army with any lategame composition. Techswitching might be workable, but one-to-one armies just does not end well for the zerg. I have never managed to win a 200 vs 200 fight against mech with BL-infestor (haven't tried ultralisks, personally). Even if other masters players are able to, I still think trading out armies, roach vs anything costing gas, while ballooning in econ (win a fight, add a base) is the right way to go.
The key IMO is to use lots and lots of infestors. Spam infested terrans all over the mech army as your other units engage it. It causes splash and infested terrans do a lot of damage, I even upgrade them just for this reason. Also, using ling/infestor/ultra, you can change your composition to deal with his army. Heavy hellions = More Ultras. Heavy Tank/Thor = More Lings.
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On October 23 2012 15:05 pAnatiC wrote:Hey Guys i recently joined a Clan to practice better against some builds etc. Usually iam playing against high masters. Most of us r struggleing to hold the sentry immortal all in. But we have another damn Problem. Most players go Nexus First into 6:30 3th/4th Gas into 2base Sentry immortal all in. I know how long to drone, when to build what. But one guy in our clan (1500pt master) isnt playing that style. He goes for 1 Gate expand with a lot of early pressure, 4 Gate Pressure into Immortal All in. Cause of the early aggression i cant really take a 3rd. Also it feels like, i can never drone.. Iam in everything behind. If i build units he just defend it with 1 canon and sentry. - If i build drones he will punish me with 4 Gate Pressure. Tried it with mass lings + infestors. But i was allready dead when the first infestor pop. Also my econmy was shitty as hell.. Whats your usual game plan against this style? I guess, if i turtle a bit, he just takes an easy 3rd and crush me later with an muuuch better economy.
You aren't droning properly. If someone opens gateway, you should be safe to take a third ~30-40, basically, once speed is done (see its a gateway opening, get gas for speed, remove drones off gas). Basically, when toss expands to his nat, you should be able to take your third (give or take for speed, if he does like quick zealot/stalker pressure, etc). Put down a roach warren around 35-50, depending on the build (ie 3 gate sentry expand, need a roach warren around 35). Really depends on scouting, but if you see him make extra gateways as his wall-in at the nat, a forge is upgrading, etc, you should really pump out a couple roaches at 50+, and then continue droning.
I mean, the extremes are that if he goes gate/nexus/forge or core/core or forge into tech (stargate, twilight, robo), you can make the roach warren at 50 and drone up to 60-70, and if he goes 3 gate sentry expand, you'll need a roach warren ~35 (40 at latest) and a couple roaches made as soon as it finishes in case of pressure and then more if he actually pushes out, even if he goes tech but especially if he does something like 4 gate pressure.
And just like in the case of a 4 gate +1 or 6/7/8 gate pressure when going fast third vs ffe, you should not make a lair, only drone up to 50-60, and pump pure units, and you'll basically die if you started lair and droned to 70+, but similarly, if someone goes 1 gate tech, you'll 'die' because your drone count will be too low and lair/tech is too late if you only a bunch of roaches and only droned to 40-50 and started lair late and they went tech-econ and a later push.
If you hold the 4 gate pressure, you should end up way ahead and will be maxed out on roach/ling when the immortal/sentry follow-up comes.
You really need to post a replay, but if Toss expands, you are totally safe to take your third. It sounds like you arent droning hard enough when you need to, and dont know when to build units. To stop any toss all-in, its about roach/ling. Not mutas, not ling/infestors, not hydras, just roach/ling with good macro and positioning.
A replay would go a long way in helping you out, but roughly against such a gateway, expand, 4 gate pressure, immortal/sentry push, it'd be something like roach warren around 40, make a handful of roaches at 50+ and 2nd gas for lair after the roaches, drone/units as necessary due to pressure, continue droning up until you have about 60-70 drones and mass roach/ling because you see he's clearly not expanding and has lots of gateways in his main.
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On October 24 2012 18:22 porygon361 wrote:ATTENTION FELLOW ZERGS! I have discovered a new Zerg wall that does NOT require any units to stand guard! I already posted a thread on this. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=377713Edit: Some of you may know already but a lot of Zergs out there do not, and I think it is my duty to tell them about this.
I think it's a bit bold to say that you have discovered a new zerg wall...
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Is there any good thread on Life's style? Or just must-watch games that show his ZvZ and ZvT? I couldn't find any detailed info on timings, etc. On paper what he does sounds very interesting but having been busy the last month I didn't watch much of him.
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Hello, I have a few questions about scouting.
ZvT:
Basically, I have no idea what to scout for in this MU. I send in a 12 drone to check if his barracks is in his base or if he's proxying me, and that's about it. After that I dunno what he's making until I see the actual units on the map. I'm platinum and terrans in my league always do one of the following:
- hellion/banshee harass into 3rd & mech
- hellion harass into 3rd & bio/tank
- marine/tank pushes into 3rd with drops
How do I scout these things? What do I look for? How many gas will he get for each build? When is the best time to sac an overlord?
ZvP
Okay the way I understand it: 2 base toss (especially if he takes gas on natural) means timing attack incoming around ~9-10mins, so I build roaches, lings & spines to defend. However, I dunno how to differentiate a 2 base all-in toss from a macroing toss. At what time do macroing toss usually get their 3rd? What should I look out for when poking his wall? When is the good time to sac an overlord?
Thanks.
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On October 25 2012 09:17 Giganthrax wrote:
Hello, I have a few questions about scouting.
ZvT:
Basically, I have no idea what to scout for in this MU. I send in a 12 drone to check if his barracks is in his base or if he's proxying me, and that's about it. After that I dunno what he's making until I see the actual units on the map. I'm platinum and terrans in my league always do one of the following:
- hellion/banshee harass into 3rd & mech
- hellion harass into 3rd & bio/tank
- marine/tank pushes into 3rd with drops
How do I scout these things? What do I look for? How many gas will he get for each build? When is the best time to sac an overlord?
ZvP
Okay the way I understand it: 2 base toss (especially if he takes gas on natural) means timing attack incoming around ~9-10mins, so I build roaches, lings & spines to defend. However, I dunno how to differentiate a 2 base all-in toss from a macroing toss. At what time do macroing toss usually get their 3rd? What should I look out for when poking his wall? When is the good time to sac an overlord?
Thanks.
Try to sac an OL at around 6:30 in both MU's. In ZvT, if you see multiple factories, he's probably going mech. Otherwise it's most likely marine/tank. If you scout a starport with tech lab, obviously banshee. It's very tough to scout with a drone for gas timings against T; sac OL is a lot better vs this.
Also scout his front with a ling to see if he has a lot of barracks or just 1 rax with bunker. If you see a lot of rax's, he's probably not teching and going more marine-heavy; you can pretty much rule out hellion/banshee (if he does this, it'll be delayed).
In ZvP, keep a ling at his 3rd. Try to drone such that you hit 70 supply at around 8 minutes. To scout an allin, keep an eye on the gas at the natural (you should have an OL in position for this). If he's on 2gas at 6:30~7, make a few roaches since he may be gateway allin'ing or 4-gate into 3rd.
When you sac your OL at 6:30, check for a robo and a twilight. If you see a twilight/robo, he's most likely going to expand, or at least have a pretty delayed push. This means you can drone up to 70 or so and then just pump units in time for his attack. If you do NOT see a twilight and just a robo, you should probably prep for an immo/sentry allin. Make units after 8min. until he takes his 3rd or allin's you. Also try to keep track of his gateway count - 4+ gates warping in probably means allin, so you should pump units.
As for scouting his front, check for activity on the forge and cyber with your ling. If you see a lot of chrono's going down on the cyber, it's most likely a gateway allin/gateway pressure. This can hit as early as 7:45ish I think. If you see an early +1 on the forge, also an indication of a timing.
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EPT
