EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 416
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
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courtpanda
866 Posts
On October 31 2012 04:58 Defenestrator wrote: Still pretty standard in today's play, though most Z's probably do 15pool instead of 14pool. Not a huge difference though, and maybe a 17pool in ZvT. would it be better to early pool without scouting, or later pool with scout? i don't want to blind 17 pool in case of 2rax | ||
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HerbMon
United States459 Posts
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
On October 31 2012 13:39 courtpanda wrote: would it be better to early pool without scouting, or later pool with scout? i don't want to blind 17 pool in case of 2rax Something like 15/16 pool are safe, and getting a 14 pool would be like you 100% know it's a 2 rax, anything above 16 supply and not getting a pool is playing greedy. Recommend: 15 hatch 15/16pool. You almost always want to scout unless you are REALLY confident or you want to 15 hatch 14 pool every game. Getting anything above a 16 pool would be in response to your opponents greed(CC first) | ||
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courtpanda
866 Posts
On October 31 2012 13:56 HerbMon wrote: i scout on the 10th drone and it seems to work fine. the drone hits the base around 15 supply if not sooner. plenty of enough time to react properly. 10th drone feels a little early. ive been scouting at 12 supply and i usually get there in time On October 31 2012 13:59 NovemberstOrm wrote: Something like 15/16 pool are safe, and getting a 14 pool would be like you 100% know it's a 2 rax, anything above 16 supply and not getting a pool is playing greedy. Recommend: 15 hatch 15/16pool. You almost always want to scout unless you are REALLY confident or you want to 15 hatch 14 pool every game. Getting anything above a 16 pool would be in response to your opponents greed(CC first) my question was does the extra resources from not scouting justify 14 pool? or is it more economic to send a drone scout but get a later pool? also, whenever i see cc first, i go 3 hatch before pool. greed is fun. | ||
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straycat
230 Posts
I feel that: - If I make blords/infs enough to make the deathball really deathballish (1), I need to complement it with spines due to lack of roaches to hold blink stalkers at bay (my fungals are not perfect...), but this slows my approach so much that they generally have mommaship out, because I had to spread creep etc, and they can take another base, too, and be on 4 bases.  - If I make blords/infs enough to make the deathball really deathballish (2), I feel I lack mobility/defense to counter the zealot harass that good (imo) protosses go for. The kind when 6+ zealots arrive at a base and make short work of everything there. - If I, to some extent, have roaches to stave off blink-ins under the blords, the deathball doesn't feel as deathballish anymore, and my siege power is diminished. How do I balance these factors and achieve true OP status?  edit: compliment -> complement haha | ||
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LordImmortala
Korea (South)41 Posts
Im a low plat in KOR server. I try to hold two base double robo by going corruptors,but seem to fail cuz I just have too little roaches. If it is simply triple robo mass colossi style and not an all in,I tryto go broods and get wiped by harassment and vortex. I go ultras and he pop three immortals at a time plus mass chargelots... How should I engage with corruptor/roach agaimst two base?or how shouuld I deal with robo heavy style in general? | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On October 31 2012 22:21 LordImmortala wrote: how should I deal with mass colossi and immortal style? Im a low plat in KOR server. I try to hold two base double robo by going corruptors,but seem to fail cuz I just have too little roaches. If it is simply triple robo mass colossi style and not an all in,I tryto go broods and get wiped by harassment and vortex. I go ultras and he pop three immortals at a time plus mass chargelots... How should I engage with corruptor/roach agaimst two base?or how shouuld I deal with robo heavy style in general? Go mutas? Mutas are great vs robo play. Also, you should be able to hold pretty much anything with roach ling. Just prepare 2-3 flanks. You really need to upload a replay though, your questions are very general. Make more spines in lategame vs harass, and split your BL better. Try to neural his MS. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
- If I make blords/infs enough to make the deathball really deathballish (1), I need to complement it with spines due to lack of roaches to hold blink stalkers at bay (my fungals are not perfect...), but this slows my approach so much that they generally have mommaship out, because I had to spread creep etc, and they can take another base, too, and be on 4 bases. Once you hit 12 broodlords (and stop at 14 at most), your army should be invincible to anything short of a vortex. If you don't have perfect fungals then you need to work on having perfect fungals. They're necessary. IT spam is good if he commits/you think he's going to commit. Always have 6-8 corruptors so you can always snipe a mothership (they kill motherships SO fast - suicide in the corruptors, use corruption and focus the mothership, it's scary how this nearly always gets the kill). The only time you need spines is when he's pushing you before colossi. - If I make blords/infs enough to make the deathball really deathballish (2), I feel I lack mobility/defense to counter the zealot harass that good (imo) protosses go for. The kind when 6+ zealots arrive at a base and make short work of everything there. Spo' crawlers, mo' crawlers. But yeah, you should be swimming in minerals, so you should have ~24 spines (~8 per active base), 1 spore per base, and 1 overseer just in case the spore gets killed. Use overlords to generate creep while the hatch is making so spines are up in time. Also, in the lategame I like to have about 40 3/3 cracklings. They trade well with zlots and DTs, are great for counters, and stop blink-ins cold. Cracklings are scary, especially when there's a ton of broodlings for the colo to attack instead. 6 Zealots is nothing. Try 10 zealots and 4 DTs, they can often snipe the hatch even ignoring 6 spines because +3 DTs do the same DPS as an immortal? Not sure, but I think it's 60/1.5ish, so it's pretty close to an immortal. And there's 4 of them. And there's 10 zealots. Basically 70 drones, 30 spines, 14 broodlords, 8 corruptors for mothership snipe, and ALL the rest of your supply goes into infestors. You can even do a mass spore/cancel to get 5-10 more infestors out. A handful of lings for run-bys is always helpful, even in lategame. IT harass is really powerful at sniping bases/mothership tech. | ||
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LordImmortala
Korea (South)41 Posts
On October 31 2012 23:10 Henk wrote: Go mutas? Mutas are great vs robo play. Also, you should be able to hold pretty much anything with roach ling. Just prepare 2-3 flanks. You really need to upload a replay though, your questions are very general. Make more spines in lategame vs harass, and split your BL better. Try to neural his MS. Cant upload a replay cuz I write frommy iPad... But i do use mutas against p occasionally, but To really go mutas I need to stockpile gas and it means i have to get gas at 5min or sth,,, i open 3hatch gasless against FFE so if i stockpile guess blindly its useless against stargate builds cuz i cant get mutas.(i dont like infestors so i dont go that route)but when i do go muta and p goes colossi, i just base race with ton of spines in my natural and win most of the time. By the way, my macro and multi tasking is plausible in my level(one reason I prefer ,mutas over infestors)though micro and scouting and positiong need some work | ||
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X3GoldDot
Malaysia3840 Posts
On October 31 2012 23:46 LordImmortala wrote: Cant upload a replay cuz I write frommy iPad... But i do use mutas against p occasionally, but To really go mutas I need to stockpile gas and it means i have to get gas at 5min or sth,,, i open 3hatch gasless against FFE so if i stockpile guess blindly its useless against stargate builds cuz i cant get mutas.(i dont like infestors so i dont go that route)but when i do go muta and p goes colossi, i just base race with ton of spines in my natural and win most of the time. By the way, my macro and multi tasking is plausible in my level(one reason I prefer ,mutas over infestors)though micro and scouting and positiong need some work Well first thing u need to do is like Infestors lol, they are so much better than mutas | ||
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LordImmortala
Korea (South)41 Posts
On November 01 2012 00:50 X3GoldDot wrote: Well first thing u need to do is like Infestors lol, they are so much better than mutas But infestors are more micro intensive than mutas, so I prefer mutas since my micro is not good. | ||
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dabuz
10 Posts
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On October 31 2012 23:46 LordImmortala wrote: Cant upload a replay cuz I write frommy iPad... But i do use mutas against p occasionally, but To really go mutas I need to stockpile gas and it means i have to get gas at 5min or sth,,, i open 3hatch gasless against FFE so if i stockpile guess blindly its useless against stargate builds cuz i cant get mutas.(i dont like infestors so i dont go that route)but when i do go muta and p goes colossi, i just base race with ton of spines in my natural and win most of the time. By the way, my macro and multi tasking is plausible in my level(one reason I prefer ,mutas over infestors)though micro and scouting and positiong need some work It sounds like you are trying to tech too fast. You should not have to start stockpiling gas at 5 min. Standard gas timings (2 at 6 min or 3 at 6:30) should work just fine. Also I suggest first chance you get to add a replay as that would greatly help us answer your questions. But I agree that mutas are a good bet judging by what you have told us so far. | ||
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straycat
230 Posts
On October 31 2012 23:22 Mavvie wrote: Once you hit 12 broodlords (and stop at 14 at most), ... Thank you for the advice! I'll try with this as a guideline for a month or two and see if I fare better. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On November 01 2012 01:30 dabuz wrote: Diamond player here struggling against Terran mech. Early and mid game, find it hard to scout mech early enough to react and kill it with roaches, and I'm struggling to find a way to hit lategame and get broodlord/ corruptor/ infestor tech before dying to a push. How is zerg supposed to respond to Terran mech? Post a replay if you can. More than four hellions is a strong signal that it's mech. A low marine count early on is a medium signal that it's some kind of tech play, i.e. banshee or mech. This is all from 1rax FE opening standpoint, but probably holds true across any opening. They want those four gases going ASAP, and they want hellions instead of marines. Here's my key to beating mech--upgraded roaches. You always have more gas to spare for upgrades than a mech player, use it to stay ahead on upgrades. I don't use much else, though I add a small number of lings to attract initial tank and thors shots, and banes as they get higher hellion counts and I start to max. You must stay active with the roaches. If he's greedy, hit him, break his production (tech labs) or worker lines, and trade out your roaches. If he's going straight into thors (no tanks), trade roaches for thors. If he's going tank heavy, do something else (some kind of tech, or double expand) while you contain him in the meantime. Don't let him move forward without leapfrogging siege tanks. Lose roaches if you have to, just force a siege and use the time to pump units. If you can't fight him, counter. Take bases as you can, spine them lightly (2-3 spines). With your roaches roaming the map, he should get nothing out but hellions until he pushes--at which point, fight if you will win for sure, delay if you aren't sure. Take far bases if you like, you just need to have a base to run drones to should it devolve into a baserace. When you engage, scoot in. Roaches are melee units, or so the mindset should be. When you're hugging the opponent, you maximize the number of roaches that can fire (HUGE issue for many; in fact, the primary problem I watch for when people as for vs mech help), and it encourages his tanks to splash his own units (unless manually controlled). Make sure you shoot when his tanks shoot, and move when they're quiet (or else you squish your roaches together and give him extra splash damage). With some speedlings in the pack, you can a-move all the same and the tanks and thors will waste their first volley on the useless lings (they'd evaporate to the hellions). Remember to inject--every larvae is a roach, every roach is a big deal. When you're microing your roaches, any moment where you don't need to reposition them (say, after you're hugging thors) should be spent spamming "s rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr" to remax quickly. Here's two replays where I surge around the map with tides of roaches and ride the waves of efficiency and trading to "weird" wins. Note how I'm active and aggressive with my army, my upgraded roaches stand toe-to-toe with thors, and I take opportunities as they come, whether it's shoddy defenses or odd counterattacks. vs high diamond (diamond according to drop.sc... thought he was masters), mech with banshees: http://drop.sc/269782 vs mid-masters, greedy mech: http://drop.sc/269781 EDIT: Forgot to mention, I think BL-infestor is pretty bad against mech. Hellions are like mini-colossi, thors are vikings with three times the tanking power, and tanks auto-snipe infestors from a huge range, it's like walking into a hard counter. I would rather have roach infestor and just flood him with ITs than try to make BLs work. Hell, I'd rather have the equivalent BL investment in unupgraded, non-speed banelings, that's how little faith I have in BL vs mech. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
More than four hellions is a strong signal that it's mech. A low marine count early on is a medium signal that it's some kind of tech play, i.e. banshee or mech. This is all from 1rax FE opening standpoint, but probably holds true across any opening. They want those four gases going ASAP, and they want hellions instead of marines. 6 to 8 hellions can still transition to bio. I think you can make a case that the 7th and 8th hellion strongly indicate mech but up to 6 doesnt say too much. | ||
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Melaine
United States56 Posts
I had issues with this in Dim, was plat last season, got to dim this season. I open with standard 15 pool, 20 hatch, 24 hatch, hit my timmings for lair @ 7:20, I can't punish him for having no units, he has alot of cannons, he turtles on 2 base, then takes a 3rd cannons up (literaly 10+ cannons) I respond with taking a 4th, infestors upgraded+Corupters, I can't engage his small army, the protoss just turtles untill he gets a mass of carrier/mothership/voids, I had a 200 supply of infestor/corupter avoided vortex, could not touch his 3/3 air army. I will upload a replay when I get hope, but it's pretty annoying to deal with. Is mass infestor with NP the answer? because my mass Courupters get owned | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On November 01 2012 17:59 Melaine wrote: Which is the proper way to deal with a Protoss who goes for a normal looking FFE, then just cannons off and goes for mass voids, carriers and mothership. I had issues with this in Dim, was plat last season, got to dim this season. I open with standard 15 pool, 20 hatch, 24 hatch, hit my timmings for lair @ 7:20, I can't punish him for having no units, he has alot of cannons, he turtles on 2 base, then takes a 3rd cannons up (literaly 10+ cannons) I respond with taking a 4th, infestors upgraded+Corupters, I can't engage his small army, the protoss just turtles untill he gets a mass of carrier/mothership/voids, I had a 200 supply of infestor/corupter avoided vortex, could not touch his 3/3 air army. I will upload a replay when I get hope, but it's pretty annoying to deal with. Is mass infestor with NP the answer? because my mass Courupters get owned This shouldn't be too hard to deal with. You can take the entire map, he only has TWO bases. You should get a huge air army LONG before he has anything to deal with your mass corruptor. Also why 20H 24H? Just take hatch right after you put down your pool. I usually do 14P 15H, some do 15P 16H. Edit: You say he turtles on 2 base, yet manages to take a third. You should be able to deny his third pretty much forever, he invested all those minerals into defending his natural (and I expect main, in case of mutas..) | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On November 01 2012 17:59 Melaine wrote: Which is the proper way to deal with a Protoss who goes for a normal looking FFE, then just cannons off and goes for mass voids, carriers and mothership. I had issues with this in Dim, was plat last season, got to dim this season. I open with standard 15 pool, 20 hatch, 24 hatch, hit my timmings for lair @ 7:20, I can't punish him for having no units, he has alot of cannons, he turtles on 2 base, then takes a 3rd cannons up (literaly 10+ cannons) I respond with taking a 4th, infestors upgraded+Corupters, I can't engage his small army, the protoss just turtles untill he gets a mass of carrier/mothership/voids, I had a 200 supply of infestor/corupter avoided vortex, could not touch his 3/3 air army. I will upload a replay when I get hope, but it's pretty annoying to deal with. Is mass infestor with NP the answer? because my mass Courupters get owned i had trouble with this in diamond too, and I know this sounds lame but it's countered by macro. You should make a grand total of 0 units before 80 drones. Take fast gasses and pump infestors while droning 5 bases (so you're going drone-infestor til 90 drones), then throw down double spire and a 6th for gas. Ling-corruptor will deny his fourth forever, to the point where he'll make a deathball push all in off 3 bases (you'll have 2-2 air and infestors). Turn 20 drones into spores if you deny his fourth, and make more infestors or corruptors (void rays means infestors, carriers means corruptors). Counterattacks with lings are great, though admittedly you can't pull that off unless Protoss is bad (or forgets shield ups). I recommend double evo for melee/carapace so you can switch to ultras. I'm not sure if ultras are a good idea, but it worked the last time I played against this style (maybe 1 per 100 ZvPs). Ultra/bane/ling rolled through his cannons, economy, and production. Ultralisks just don't give a fuck. IMO this works if you have the bank to remax on corruptors as soon as you lose everything. Mass spores eith extra minerals is good, but make sure to replace the drones! Never fight over cannons. Never let him get cannons to his fourth. If he brings his army out of cannon range, chain fungal and shove your corruptors down his throat. If its 14 geysers to 6, you can be as cost inefficient as you like. Injects are SO crucial, and it will be a 30+ minute game. A macro hatch st every base isnt a bad idea. The moment he switches into mass gate for archons/zealots get a ton of spines to deny counterattacks, and get greater spire. 3/3 broodlords actually couldn't care less about stalkers/archons, especially because grounf weapons won't be anywhere near +3 unless he goes full retard in the midgame (ie skips shield ups). Just never forget that cannons are a fucking good unit, so NEVER attack into them. Just take literally the whole map. Get burrow and neural, never lose infestors. If he goes mothership you can probably get the flank + neural with a burrowed infestor. Just my thoughts on playing against the style TL;DR: he sacrifices ALL aggressive potential, so take the map, get infestors and quadrouple upgrades (2x air 2x ground), get mass spore/spine for insurance with extra minerals, and NEVER let him get cannons up at his fourth. Never fight over cannons, always fungal + fight if he is away from cannons. Deal with mothership like any ZvP. | ||
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