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On October 08 2012 15:54 Omnidroid wrote:
In ZvP, during your typical 3 hatch opening, what time should you get your third queen so that it lines up the best economically?
I have a feeling you shouldn't be going 3 queens before third pops, maybe just before the hatch finishes so you can walk it down and inject instantly? Or maybe after third pops so you can squeeze in that much more drones?
I get my 3rd queen in my nat when my nat's queen finishes, but when the 2nd queen arrives at the 3rd it puts down a tumor instead of injecting.
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On October 08 2012 15:54 Omnidroid wrote:
In ZvP, during your typical 3 hatch opening, what time should you get your third queen so that it lines up the best economically?
I have a feeling you shouldn't be going 3 queens before third pops, maybe just before the hatch finishes so you can walk it down and inject instantly? Or maybe after third pops so you can squeeze in that much more drones?
It depends a little on what order you put down the first buildings/overlords, if you get third hatch before 2nd queen etc.
The most economical (or at least best flowing way) I found is to get 2nd queen(in main) before 3'd hatch. move the first queen to the natural and inject once. 20 sec before the larva pop you start your 3'd queen @ your nat (this should be at 34/36 if you made an OL at 32).
After your first queen injected at the nat you can either wait for energy and plant a tumor (to connect nat and third) before you walk it to the third, but I'mm starting to prefer to just walk it there after the inject and put a tumor + inject at the third instead.
this will make your 3 queens line up the injects pretty much perfectly and can comfortably get you to 70+ supply at 8mins (even though you skip one inject).
you also get one creep tumor either at your nat or third.
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On October 08 2012 16:59 Salomonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 15:54 Omnidroid wrote:
In ZvP, during your typical 3 hatch opening, what time should you get your third queen so that it lines up the best economically?
I have a feeling you shouldn't be going 3 queens before third pops, maybe just before the hatch finishes so you can walk it down and inject instantly? Or maybe after third pops so you can squeeze in that much more drones? It depends a little on what order you put down the first buildings/overlords, if you get third hatch before 2nd queen etc. The most economical (or at least best flowing way) I found is to get 2nd queen(in main) before 3'd hatch. move the first queen to the natural and inject once. 20 sec before the larva pop you start your 3'd queen @ your nat (this should be at 34/36 if you made an OL at 32). After your first queen injected at the nat you can either wait for energy and plant a tumor (to connect nat and third) before you walk it to the third, but I'mm starting to prefer to just walk it there after the inject and put a tumor + inject at the third instead. this will make your 3 queens line up the injects pretty much perfectly and can comfortably get you to 70+ supply at 8mins (even though you skip one inject). you also get one creep tumor either at your nat or third.
I'll try this again... I recall having problems with money with this queen timings. I often don't get enough money for drones and I get so much excess larva, which I'm supposed to be turning into drones. I currently just make a queen after a hatch is done and get my late 4th queen (for creep spread) after saturating all bases.
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the way I do it you should have enough money for both queens and drones, its tight but it should work. overlord timings can be crucial, I make mine at 9,15(after 16 hatch or at 16 before hatch if block is coming) 25, 32, 36, 50 and 54 for the opening.
If you don't skip one inject for a tumor you will have idle larva with this method.
I usually delay roach warren and get a 4th queen for creep if I scout early gas at toss nat, this is really nice for connecting bases and defending the first voidray if he goes for stargate. If he takes no gas/late gas I skip the queen and spend that money on roaches instead.
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Thanks 6xpcs that helped a ton. I'll have to catch up on everything has changed in sc2 the past year. Stephano wasn't even around yet when I stopped playing. I'm gun shy about engaging sometimes when I feel I'm ahead and I can just starve him out, but I think I just miscalculate what's going on and when I should attack. I have a much easier time knowing when to pull the trigger zvz and zvp.
I hate roaching roach against t, but it's the only thing that seems to let me stay alive. I always seem to forget roach speed for some reason. Probably because I have no idea what I'm doing and kind of do something different every time which isn't great. There are lots of periods of lulls in the game where I don't make units because I get so paranoid about my unit composition. I should probably just throw units at him, get macro better, and save the thinking/analyzing for after the game. I'm not very good at judging when I make a good trade or a bad trade either. It helped when you pointed out both the good trades and the bad ones.
The infested terran point helped a ton. I have the exact same problem zvp and I need to realize that IFs do a lot of dps. For some reason it's like my brain can't comprehend some of the newer things going on now. I'll have to check out more games so I can understand what's going on with the flow of the game and unit comp. I wanted to focus on playing a ton of games first to work on my mechanics.
I'm trying to rush to hive because everyone seems to think bl are so great zvp. They say zerg is really strong late game now so I thought I'd try rushing for hive zvt too. I still need at least 8 gas though and I'll try to focus on 10 gas for hive against a mech t. It's just another case of me stumbling around in the dark with what new style of play everyone is doing. It's tough cause I haven't seen it yet except for some zvp games, but I'm going to catch up on some games tonight to see what's going on. It seems really weird zerg rushes for hive and bl's so fast zvp in the games I've seen so far.
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this should sounds like a stupid question but still..i am really terrible using fungal on mutas.. do u have some tips? also if they are clumped i can't chain fungal them most of the times :/
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On October 08 2012 21:12 Tribuno wrote:
this should sounds like a stupid question but still..i am really terrible using fungal on mutas.. do u have some tips? also if they are clumped i can't chain fungal them most of the times :/
Do you have flyer helper enabled? It helps immensely cause you have to aim fungals on the ground beneath the mutas and the flyer helper shows the little dots on the ground. As for chain fungaling, the fungal duration is 4 in-game seconds, which is almost exactly 3 real-time seconds. So, every time you throw a fungal, count to 3 and fungal again.
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Hi
How does it happen that i have to reset all off my rally points from all off my hatcherys every two to three times during a game?
It's really annoying if you know your hatch doesn't operate relaiable :/
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On October 08 2012 23:57 Striker.superfreunde wrote:
Hi
How does it happen that i have to reset all off my rally points from all off my hatcherys every two to three times during a game?
It's really annoying if you know your hatch doesn't operate relaiable :/
Rally points get reset primary because one of two things happen:
(a) You rally onto a unit or building that subsequently dies, or
(b) You right-click on the hatch that you have selected which erases its waypoints.
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On October 08 2012 23:57 Striker.superfreunde wrote:
Hi
How does it happen that i have to reset all off my rally points from all off my hatcherys every two to three times during a game?
It's really annoying if you know your hatch doesn't operate relaiable :/
This started happening to me lately. I think it's the result of holding down CTRL while hotkeying your army and then not letting go when you next hit the hotkey for your hatches. It's pretty devastating when you're on 4-5 bases. What's strange is that it never happened to me until recently. I just chalk it up to sloppiness and trying to play faster than I'm capable of.
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On October 08 2012 23:57 Striker.superfreunde wrote:
Hi
How does it happen that i have to reset all off my rally points from all off my hatcherys every two to three times during a game?
It's really annoying if you know your hatch doesn't operate relaiable :/
What I like to do is when I morph units, is add them to my control group right away. By doing this units get rallied to wherever you want without having to pay additional effort. You do this by ctrl-clicking all the eggs you're morphing (this separates the eggs from the unused larvae) and then adding them to your hotkey by using shift+hotkey button. (1, 2 or 3 for me).
I've seen many pros doing this recently and although it might take a little bit of time to get used to, it's so incredibly useful. I often lost to immortal sentry all ins because I had a quarter of my army sitting around in front of my natural because I forgot to rally them, and even if I rallied them, I had to box everything, which is really annoying when you're trying to flank and such.
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Hi,
I am high level Diamond player and have a question: I am using Dimagas ling/bling/drop style against toss because 1. They dont exepct it and build Stalker immortal blindly 2. I like that style.
Lately I'm only getting master league opponents and I've troubles transitioning out of this style. Lets say I'm on three bases, defend the toss' push at around 10-12 minutes. toss takes 3rd, i Take 4th. but i only have ling / bling. I add infestation pit, start missile upgrade and hive tech asap, but if he goes templer/archon and attacks before broods I am pretty much lost because ling/bling doesnt do shit against this combo.
How do I transition out of this probably? Any advice?
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^ replays would be nice. I don't know how dimaga plays, but IMO a "macro" style of this would be to start infestation pit after drops/bane speed/overlord speed, then start hive + spire. Delay these if you're getting attacked early as you need 70 drones on 3 bases if you're mining all the gas (you will want to with all that tech).
Generally take a fourth as soon as you rule out a gateway all in.
My question:
If I'm playing a drg-style muta ZvP, if I rule out a gateway all-in should my 8:30 hatch be a macro hatch or a fourth? It seems crazy to take an 8:30 fourth...
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On October 09 2012 05:16 bretfart wrote:
Hi,
I am high level Diamond player and have a question: I am using Dimagas ling/bling/drop style against toss because 1. They dont exepct it and build Stalker immortal blindly 2. I like that style.
Lately I'm only getting master league opponents and I've troubles transitioning out of this style. Lets say I'm on three bases, defend the toss' push at around 10-12 minutes. toss takes 3rd, i Take 4th. but i only have ling / bling. I add infestation pit, start missile upgrade and hive tech asap, but if he goes templer/archon and attacks before broods I am pretty much lost because ling/bling doesnt do shit against this combo.
How do I transition out of this probably? Any advice?
It sounds like you're taking your infestation pit far too late. I'm not too familiar with the style but ling/bling drops sounds pretty gas-light (after you invest in drop tech it's just banes, which aren't too expensive), so you should be prepping for T3 transition when on 3-base. By the time you get to 4-base you should be preparing to actually BUILD the T3 units, not transitioning into them. There's a tremendous lag between infestation pit and BL's, so this is a pretty big deal (I forget infestation pit build time, but 100s for spire/hive + 100s for greater spire + infestation pit + BL morphing ~= 4:30 in game time).
It's probably good to watch a dimaga replay to see what he does (or some other higher-lvl player), but infestation pit once drop tech finishes sounds like a good timing to prep the transition.
Also, if he's going heavy templar/archon, you may want to add roaches for additional survivability.
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On October 09 2012 05:26 Defenestrator wrote:
It sounds like you're taking your infestation pit far too late. I'm not too familiar with the style but ling/bling drops sounds pretty gas-light (after you invest in drop tech it's just banes, which aren't too expensive), so you should be prepping for T3 transition when on 3-base. By the time you get to 4-base you should be preparing to actually BUILD the T3 units, not transitioning into them. There's a tremendous lag between infestation pit and BL's, so this is a pretty big deal (I forget infestation pit build time, but 100s for spire/hive + 100s for greater spire + infestation pit + BL morphing ~= 4:30 in game time).
It's probably good to watch a dimaga replay to see what he does (or some other higher-lvl player), but infestation pit once drop tech finishes sounds like a good timing to prep the transition.
Also, if he's going heavy templar/archon, you may want to add roaches for additional survivability.
The problem with roaches though is that I dont have missile upgrade since I am going for melee and carapace. But maybe you are right and I should put down my infestation pit and roach warren as soon as drops are ready. I will try that and upload a replay if I am still having problems. (Do you think ling/bling is inferior to roach/ling before t3? I only know dimaga among the pros who is favouring this style)
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Against Templar/Archon builds, i've found two things really useful with the banerain style.
First = more banelings =) Being cost-effective is not the point imo
Second = Corruptor spell against Archon. Makes them die soooooo fast with mass lings. Another way is to get infestation pit and fungal so you can banerain freely on your opponnent army.
But i really prefer using corruption coz it combo very well with Ultra/ling/Bane/Infestors, the banked gas allows you to make lots of infestors at once, and get neural parasite. Going straight to broodlord after Banerain style is a bad idea imo, coz you need IT with Mss BL. And IT won't be upgraded . (And BL is boring but that...)
About this style i have one question. I've found that with Fuzzy delayed third, if you're getting Hive before speed you can have Drop + speed around 10:20/30. I'm wondering if it's a good way to deal with immortal/sentry pushs, i should obviously tempo with some lings to get some banes ready, but on paper it sounds cool.
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On October 08 2012 16:25 [Noman] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 15:54 Omnidroid wrote:
In ZvP, during your typical 3 hatch opening, what time should you get your third queen so that it lines up the best economically?
I have a feeling you shouldn't be going 3 queens before third pops, maybe just before the hatch finishes so you can walk it down and inject instantly? Or maybe after third pops so you can squeeze in that much more drones? I get my 3rd queen in my nat when my nat's queen finishes, but when the 2nd queen arrives at the 3rd it puts down a tumor instead of injecting.
In ret's games on chanmanv's pro corner he did something slightly different each time so I'm not sure if it matters that much at this level yet. He went 22 hatch in all three games I saw. The order I mostly like that he used on cloud kingdom if I didn't mess anything up was 16 queen, 23 queen, 5:00 tumor at his third, 44 for his third queen. The only thing I don't like his that his third queen was super late this game. In his other two games I saw he got his third queen on 31 and 34. I like getting it on 31.
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On October 09 2012 05:42 bretfart wrote:
The problem with roaches though is that I dont have missile upgrade since I am going for melee and carapace. But maybe you are right and I should put down my infestation pit and roach warren as soon as drops are ready. I will try that and upload a replay if I am still having problems. (Do you think ling/bling is inferior to roach/ling before t3? I only know dimaga among the pros who is favouring this style)
No one that I know of gets missile upgrades in today's meta - it's all melee/carapace when people go roach/ling into festor. The roaches are mostly there to tank and to not be completely negated by FF; lings also benefit the most in DPS increase from melee upgrades (and obviously both benefit from carapace). Not sure which is better between roach/ling and bane/ling, but bane rain with proper control/micro (which is pretty tough IMO) should be just fine vs most toss comps in the midgame.
I've also wondered why no one gets missile upgrades - I think it'd be pretty sweet to stay on roach/ling/festor for a little longer before T3 on 3 evo, since IT's benefit a ton from missile upgrades.
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On October 09 2012 06:47 guitarizt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 16:25 [Noman] wrote:On October 08 2012 15:54 Omnidroid wrote:
In ZvP, during your typical 3 hatch opening, what time should you get your third queen so that it lines up the best economically?
I have a feeling you shouldn't be going 3 queens before third pops, maybe just before the hatch finishes so you can walk it down and inject instantly? Or maybe after third pops so you can squeeze in that much more drones? I get my 3rd queen in my nat when my nat's queen finishes, but when the 2nd queen arrives at the 3rd it puts down a tumor instead of injecting. In ret's games on chanmanv's pro corner he did something slightly different each time so I'm not sure if it matters that much at this level yet. He went 22 hatch in all three games I saw. The order I mostly like that he used on cloud kingdom if I didn't mess anything up was 16 queen, 23 queen, 5:00 tumor at his third, 44 for his third queen. The only thing I don't like his that his third queen was super late this game. In his other two games I saw he got his third queen on 31 and 34. I like getting it on 31.
I'm not Ret, but TangSC taught me:
15 pool, 16 hatch, 15 overlord + queen + ling, 18-21 (or 22) drones, first queen injects main then walks to natural, start new queen immediately in main. 23 or 24 third hatch, usually 4:10-4:15. At 34 supply (after 32 overlord), or when natural inject is 30/40 done, start new queen in natural. Natural queen drops a tumour before going to third, then voila you have 3 queens with perfectly timed injects, except the queen at your third has 3-4 extra energy, no big deal. And you get an active tumor, seems like the most efficient way IMO.
Is Fuzzy's late third opening actually better? I haven't tested, but I just can't believe it...
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On October 09 2012 06:50 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 05:42 bretfart wrote:
The problem with roaches though is that I dont have missile upgrade since I am going for melee and carapace. But maybe you are right and I should put down my infestation pit and roach warren as soon as drops are ready. I will try that and upload a replay if I am still having problems. (Do you think ling/bling is inferior to roach/ling before t3? I only know dimaga among the pros who is favouring this style)
No one that I know of gets missile upgrades in today's meta - it's all melee/carapace when people go roach/ling into festor. The roaches are mostly there to tank and to not be completely negated by FF; lings also benefit the most in DPS increase from melee upgrades (and obviously both benefit from carapace). Not sure which is better between roach/ling and bane/ling, but bane rain with proper control/micro (which is pretty tough IMO) should be just fine vs most toss comps in the midgame. I've also wondered why no one gets missile upgrades - I think it'd be pretty sweet to stay on roach/ling/festor for a little longer before T3 on 3 evo, since IT's benefit a ton from missile upgrades.
Just going to add my thoughts, defenestrator gave a good overview of it already.
Missile is nice if you want to do a roach-heavy play to deny their third, or because you're ahead and you want to kill him, or you want to do a hydra-because-2-stargate-VR attack, but with the sentry-immortal heavy styles most protoss use, you'll want lings, and ling upgrades so they stay useful.
Banes become mostly useless after blink finishes, at high diamond and up. There're exceptions, of course, but by and large you'll die without infestors to lock down stalkers. Banes on zealots is usually not as good as it should be, either. You end up struggling to use banes, instead of making toss struggle against roach-ling. Basically, banes drop off in usefulness, use the gas for something better after you've warded off a 2-base whatever, or attempted to deny his third.
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EPT
