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On October 06 2012 05:25 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 02:43 Mavvie wrote:On October 06 2012 02:12 AshenCZ wrote:Mavvie - I switched to Zerg not a week ago but I've played ZvZs and broke them down and really saw roach/infestor as (for me) most fun to play playstyle  You go like 15 hatch 15 gas 15 pool into speed bane lair roach and then infestor with double evo, take a third and roach war. I love that style It's probably completely broken and people here will tell you not to do it because of the mistakes it has (I dunno about any but I am a noob :D) just another POV for you I guess I used to be Diamond protoss but I am like gold-plat zerg at MAX.  I've got the same with late game ZvP and mid game ZvT... no clue what to do to NOT die to pushes or like really well executed harass :-D Man I SUCK against hellion/banshee it makes me want to cry. I'll finally end up defending the harass, and I have 50 drones and 1.5k minerals LOL. ZvP is pretty easy though; defend any 2-base all-in, turtle with infestor/spine and get broods up just before his 3 base timing kills your last spine. Yeah, there are a few problems with that general ZvZ gameplan. IMO, there's a few options: 1) Fast third before lair -> roach/hydra (or roach/infestor vs mutas) 2) 2 base roach/infestor (usually single evo) into third, very strong vs mutas, very strong vs 2 base all ins3) 2 base lair (mutas or infestors are both good), use map control to secure your third Usually, you always want to get a single evo to pump out missile attack upgrades, then get a second evo for +2/+1 if you're going for roaches. 2/0 roaches demolish 2/1 roaches. 2/2 roach/hydra will demolish any sort of roach/infestor army. @Oboeman and iggym: Awesome. Yeah, I was ahead and threw the game away for sure. I'll be sure to reread that part of the guide, but isn't most of the content in his guides severely outdated? 2 base roach infestor into third is actually awful vs 2 base muta, unless you have creep spread all the way to your third (rare for most ppl) the muta player can just spread out and deny your third while taking his own
Unless you make more than 0 queens...even making a third queen will get creep to your third. Also overlords can drop creep- I used thhis to spore up my third against 2 base mutaㅊ, and defended it fine.
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On October 06 2012 05:46 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 05:25 Moosegills wrote:On October 06 2012 02:43 Mavvie wrote:On October 06 2012 02:12 AshenCZ wrote:Mavvie - I switched to Zerg not a week ago but I've played ZvZs and broke them down and really saw roach/infestor as (for me) most fun to play playstyle You go like 15 hatch 15 gas 15 pool into speed bane lair roach and then infestor with double evo, take a third and roach war. I love that style It's probably completely broken and people here will tell you not to do it because of the mistakes it has (I dunno about any but I am a noob :D) just another POV for you I guess I used to be Diamond protoss but I am like gold-plat zerg at MAX. I've got the same with late game ZvP and mid game ZvT... no clue what to do to NOT die to pushes or like really well executed harass :-D Man I SUCK against hellion/banshee it makes me want to cry. I'll finally end up defending the harass, and I have 50 drones and 1.5k minerals LOL. ZvP is pretty easy though; defend any 2-base all-in, turtle with infestor/spine and get broods up just before his 3 base timing kills your last spine. Yeah, there are a few problems with that general ZvZ gameplan. IMO, there's a few options: 1) Fast third before lair -> roach/hydra (or roach/infestor vs mutas) 2) 2 base roach/infestor (usually single evo) into third, very strong vs mutas, very strong vs 2 base all ins3) 2 base lair (mutas or infestors are both good), use map control to secure your third Usually, you always want to get a single evo to pump out missile attack upgrades, then get a second evo for +2/+1 if you're going for roaches. 2/0 roaches demolish 2/1 roaches. 2/2 roach/hydra will demolish any sort of roach/infestor army. @Oboeman and iggym: Awesome. Yeah, I was ahead and threw the game away for sure. I'll be sure to reread that part of the guide, but isn't most of the content in his guides severely outdated? 2 base roach infestor into third is actually awful vs 2 base muta, unless you have creep spread all the way to your third (rare for most ppl) the muta player can just spread out and deny your third while taking his own Unless you make more than 0 queens...even making a third queen will get creep to your third. Also overlords can drop creep- I used thhis to spore up my third against 2 base mutaㅊ, and defended it fine.
I suppose but don't forget you are defending against mass ling as well.
Just so you know tho it is 10x easier to defend a third vs 2 base muta if you take a 7min and under third base.
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What are the gas timings i should be scouting for when playing against protoss and terran? I'd like anyone to add to what I already know or correct any presumptions that I make. I want to learn every gas timing I can and write it down, maybe I'll share it in a forum post some time. Help me start.
So far I know that if protoss takes:
0 gas no expand: zealot cheese
1 gas no expand: 4gate
2 gas no expand: dts/stargate all in
2 gas expand at 7 mins: gateway all in
3 gas expand at 7 mins could be anything really
4 gas expand at 7 mins high tech - numerous possibilities.
If terran takes
0 gas early game (scouting drone): 2rax or expand (i really don't know how to tell the difference unless u scout the cc, how do I know he isn't hiding a second rax?)
1 gas early game: if cc -> probably hellions, maybe stim timing that should arrive at ~7 mins? if no cc -> expect mm or some type of heavy unit push
2 gas early game: sac an overlord at 5(?) minutes - most likely banshees, could be blue flame hellion drop. Not sure how to react if he makes a cc as well.
I don't really know any other gas timings to look for for terran, especially once they have expanded.
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Also, when do people usually take their thirds vs terran?
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On October 06 2012 06:23 jshnaidz wrote:
Also, when do people usually take their thirds vs terran?
Everything you need to know about ZvT: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340023
Personally, I take it as soon as I can. I'm unsure which is better - 36 supply or 44 supply, but either after 2 queens are out (2 in production as well), or after 4 are out (2 more in production). I still suck though, and ZvT feels like my worst matchup, despite it being my highest winrate (about 70%). I'm actually going to re-read the guide, I need help vs hellion/banshee T.T
As a general rule, you can take your third if he takes his natural. You can drone your third once you rule out a fast 2 base all-in (mainly either a 4rax CS push, marine/hellion timing, bio/hellion timing, etc.). Queens are really good.
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Hello, I've got a problem with my play in ZvP that I can't seem to fix relating to the mid-game/early game; I'm a diamond level zerg grinding out customs before I ladder this season and the meta has thrown me off a bit. I've been practicing a stephano style esque build with 15 pool, 16 hatch, both my gases in my main at 36~, 2nd hatch before 5 min, and I get ling speed then lair then double evo with 2 more gases. I try to get 60 drones but I feel like I'm stripped for minerals vs 4/5 gate pressure or with 6 gate mass zealot +1. Alot of protoss now like to go warp prysm by throwing down an early robo that I'm not exactly sure how to deal with either unless I go mutas,
I've tried making 4+ queens and it sort of works but when they attack at the front and warp in my main with the prysm while I'm on 3 base it utterly destroys me. I like to favor +1 melee and +1 carpace upgrades but they never finish before alot of the attack timings protoss like to do with gateways. Any ideas/suggestions are welcome :D ! thanks
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On October 06 2012 08:24 xIcarus wrote:
Hello, I've got a problem with my play in ZvP that I can't seem to fix relating to the mid-game/early game; I'm a diamond level zerg grinding out customs before I ladder this season and the meta has thrown me off a bit. I've been practicing a stephano style esque build with 15 pool, 16 hatch, both my gases in my main at 36~, 2nd hatch before 5 min, and I get ling speed then lair then double evo with 2 more gases. I try to get 60 drones but I feel like I'm stripped for minerals vs 4/5 gate pressure or with 6 gate mass zealot +1. Alot of protoss now like to go warp prysm by throwing down an early robo that I'm not exactly sure how to deal with either unless I go mutas,
I've tried making 4+ queens and it sort of works but when they attack at the front and warp in my main with the prysm while I'm on 3 base it utterly destroys me. I like to favor +1 melee and +1 carpace upgrades but they never finish before alot of the attack timings protoss like to do with gateways. Any ideas/suggestions are welcome :D ! thanks
It is important to scout the gas timing at your enemys natural. If you see no 3rd and 4th gas between 6:30-7:00, it's probably going to be a 4 gate into something. So prepare for it and you can defend it pretty easily. 6 Gate mass zealot needs to be scouted. Again look for gas timing and be sure to scout every possible location for hidden probes and pylons. put down a roach warren quickly if neccessary and stop droning in order to get some units first. against warp prism again: watch out for gases. if you dont see them before 7 min mark you know that something tricky is going on. place your overlords everywhere to spot every patch between the bases. sack an overlord asap. Replay would be helpful!
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Spoilered, i wrote a lot! :D
please read tho if u are below mid master and want zvp advice
+ Show Spoiler +I like 15pool 16 ovie 16 hatch queen 1 set of lings, 24/26 hatch, 23/26 ovie, 32 ovie, 34/36 3rd queen, 5:55 double gas
Roach warren timed vs opponent's gas count, if hes on 1 gas in main nothing else 6:00 warren, if 2 gas no gas yet, 6:40 warren, if very quick 3rd 4th gas 7:20 warren (he couldn't have placed gates). If 3 gas go around 7:00 warren.
Ling speed before lair is fine but vs very quick 4 gas protoss id suggest quicker lair or quicker 1/1 upgrades instead of ling speed, as you wont have to worry about warpin pressure.
vs zealot+stalker poke i like to make 3 more sets of lings for total of 8, with a queen u will be able to defend or kill off a loan zealot. (start building them after stalker movies out you see it with ovie over his nat often)
1st Ovie in natural should stay to check 3rd 4th gas timing, 2nd overlord should be suiciding through main at 6:50 same time natural ovie safely pokes around the natural (important to return to ledge safely for checking gases later). With 2 ovie poke you will practically always scout a large # of gates and will often see stargate/robo/twilight.
3rd ovie goes to 3rd base to watch for cannons (personal preference), 4th 5th 6th go to common proxy pylon locations or places you can see a probe coming. Afterwards ovies can be spread to watch for warp prisms or put safely in your base incase of stargate.
Most of the time 3rd 4th gas at ~65 supply (3x queen, 1x ling, = ~58 drones)
Lots and lots of stalkers = expect blink timing, most protoss attacks build stalkers LAST so if theyre making a lot of stalkers before a push is coming they will most likely go for blink and not immortal/stargate right away.
Vs protoss with at least 3 gas i suggest a 7:00 4th queen built at the 3rd base. This will help defend initial voidray and spread additional creep, also good in general cuz creep mostly just costs APM.
1st creep tumor should spread from your 3rd base towards the most popular direction of warpins, on cloud kingdom its in the secret hallway then secondarily towards your 4th base, on ohana its towards the rocks near your 3rd or out into the open near 3rd.
Overlord creep as lair finishes can help with catching up on creep spread (5 well placed creeping ovies and 1 near full energy queen can make up a lot of missed creep spreading quickly). Also a slow overlord that won't be killed can make a tumor spread practically 3x as fast with good attention max distance every spread.
4 gas roach ling will defend most 2 base allins (i like to go 6 gas vs obvious 2 base collosus for corruptor), if protoss takes 3rd you can get your 4th and either attack or drone and spine and make a lot of infestors.
If you overmade ling+roach and hes in a defensive posture with a mostly slow moving force (cannons, sim city, sentry, immortals, stalkers WITHOUT blink) getting overlord speed and drop is a great way to trade away your supply, since if he turtles on 3 base your roach ling will be nearly useless. Also forces good multitasking by protoss if you like to test your opponent, do 1 big drop and an equal sized frontal attack in 2 dif areas and a 3rd minor drop in a mineral line, thats ideal IMO. Watch out for observers! Be much more careful about the drop, best done if you kill off an observer. Overseer and a queen under obs will kill it easily.
So yea basics are early game do PERFECT droning, every larva and every overlord should be mapped out since you are basically playing vs yourself for first 8 minutes. Creep spread will not be harassed at all so it should be in 2 very specific directions to defend 2 base pushes and connect 3 bases in time for 2nd unit of stargate getting out.
Most of my advice is for early-midgame since its more black and white to me. You can go mutaling with bane/roach, roach ling infestor, infestor lots of spines quicker hive, or many dif things that all are very dif playstyle. So yea get yourself a really big advantage early on and u will be set up well for later game.
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Hi, i haven't been playing starcraft 2 for more than a year. I wasn't very good player, knew some opening builds, however, i am now afraid, that most of them are outdated :S. Could someone please give me currently basic build orders against all three races? And maybe there is something else i should be concerned about? Thanks!
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On October 06 2012 21:16 Gr1m.R wrote:Hi, i haven't been playing starcraft 2 for more than a year. I wasn't very good player, knew some opening builds, however, i am now afraid, that most of them are outdated :S. Could someone please give me currently basic build orders against all three races? And maybe there is something else i should be concerned about? Thanks!
Basic Advice fpr ZvX
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Firstly I am a medium Bronze league Zerg and want to prevent another game like what just happened to me from happening again.
I just finished a game where a 2 base Terran turtled immensely with about 20 Vikings, 10-15 Siege Tanks, and several thors and marines.
The game went on for about an hour and we mined out the entire map, me with 6 bases and him with 2. I denied his 3rd and 4th on Ohana for the entirety of the game, but I could not do enough damage to cause him to come out of his shell. I used a combination of Roach, Ling and Baneling attacks to try and break into his wall.
In the end I had lost so many units I mined out all the minerals on all 6 of my bases. He was still sitting on a 200/200 army
My question is thus, with infestors being so fragile how do I get them close to the wall. And then Fungals or Infested Terran?
Should I have gone mass Corruptor/Broodlord to try and break the wall and have nothing to run in with.
Or should I have used Ultralisks somewhere in the match and if so where.
I want to be able to deal with a turtling terran should I run up against one again.
I am willing to fire up a replay if someone can point me in the direction of a site to do so on.
Note: My macro is decent for a bronze league, but my micro sucks and I am well aware of this.
-Angothoron
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On October 07 2012 03:46 Angothoron wrote:
Firstly I am a medium Bronze league Zerg and want to prevent another game like what just happened to me from happening again.
I just finished a game where a 2 base Terran turtled immensely with about 20 Vikings, 10-15 Siege Tanks, and several thors and marines.
The game went on for about an hour and we mined out the entire map, me with 6 bases and him with 2. I denied his 3rd and 4th on Ohana for the entirety of the game, but I could not do enough damage to cause him to come out of his shell. I used a combination of Roach, Ling and Baneling attacks to try and break into his wall.
In the end I had lost so many units I mined out all the minerals on all 6 of my bases. He was still sitting on a 200/200 army
My question is thus, with infestors being so fragile how do I get them close to the wall. And then Fungals or Infested Terran?
Should I have gone mass Corruptor/Broodlord to try and break the wall and have nothing to run in with.
Or should I have used Ultralisks somewhere in the match and if so where.
I want to be able to deal with a turtling terran should I run up against one again.
I am willing to fire up a replay if someone can point me in the direction of a site to do so on.
Note: My macro is decent for a bronze league, but my micro sucks and I am well aware of this.
-Angothoron
Just go for brood/corruptor/infestors. Even if he has twenty vikings, corruptors will still trade well, you can fungal, and since you're on 6 bases, you can really afford to trade inefficiently, as long as you have saturated bases. The broodlings are going to be all you really need to break into the main.
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On October 07 2012 03:46 Angothoron wrote:
Firstly I am a medium Bronze league Zerg and want to prevent another game like what just happened to me from happening again.
I just finished a game where a 2 base Terran turtled immensely with about 20 Vikings, 10-15 Siege Tanks, and several thors and marines.
The game went on for about an hour and we mined out the entire map, me with 6 bases and him with 2. I denied his 3rd and 4th on Ohana for the entirety of the game, but I could not do enough damage to cause him to come out of his shell. I used a combination of Roach, Ling and Baneling attacks to try and break into his wall.
In the end I had lost so many units I mined out all the minerals on all 6 of my bases. He was still sitting on a 200/200 army
My question is thus, with infestors being so fragile how do I get them close to the wall. And then Fungals or Infested Terran?
Should I have gone mass Corruptor/Broodlord to try and break the wall and have nothing to run in with.
Or should I have used Ultralisks somewhere in the match and if so where.
I want to be able to deal with a turtling terran should I run up against one again.
I am willing to fire up a replay if someone can point me in the direction of a site to do so on.
Note: My macro is decent for a bronze league, but my micro sucks and I am well aware of this.
-Angothoron
basically you've done quite well. You've denied his 3rd and 4th and you have taken 6 bases. Thats good. From that point on you almost cant lose. Against a meching player you should build enoug broods AND curroptors. with 6 bases after an hour you should have SO MANY MINERALS in your account ,that you can make 30 spines and build even more curroptors and broodlors so you can get a 230/200 army (or even more). Attack his fortress, kill as much as you can and INSTANTLY remax. Kill him again There is NO WAY he can remax as quickly as you can. a terran like this should be no match for you
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In ZvP, What is the correct response to 2-base 4gate pressure from toss? Also, how do you differentiate this from a 7/8 gate (other than obviously seeing the gateways or robo)?
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^6:30 roach warren if there's no gas at natural. Delay a bit if he went cannon or pulon before gate.
Have some larvae at your third and some gas ready at 7:30 to make 5-6 roaches. Generally you can safely sac an overlord at 7:15 if his units are out on the map, gates are big and easy to scout. In that case just mass roach/ling and hope you hold!
Iirc, most fast 7/8 gates don't even take the natural gasses by 7:30-8:00, while 4gate +1 into tech or expand will.
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On October 07 2012 09:19 Defenestrator wrote:
In ZvP, What is the correct response to 2-base 4gate pressure from toss? Also, how do you differentiate this from a 7/8 gate (other than obviously seeing the gateways or robo)?
Early lings and lingspeed should help against that
Usually they do a 7gate 1 gas pressure into allin, you should easily see this if theres no gas at 7:00 and the gateways are almost up, he'll be pumping out units at 7:30 so you have to scout early with your ovvie.
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^Sorry but I respectfully completely disagree with this.
+1 zealots destroy lings, doesn't matter if you have +1 or not. You need roaches to kill +1 zealots, and it's not that big an investment.
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On October 07 2012 10:45 Mavvie wrote:
^Sorry but I respectfully completely disagree with this.
+1 zealots destroy lings, doesn't matter if you have +1 or not. You need roaches to kill +1 zealots, and it's not that big an investment.
Agreed, if you don't throw down a roach warren in response to a 4gate +1, you will most likely lose right then and there. A lot of the zergs I've faced try to skimp on roaches and just build lings and spine, and they just don't cut it.
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On October 07 2012 12:23 Whatson wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2012 10:45 Mavvie wrote:
^Sorry but I respectfully completely disagree with this.
+1 zealots destroy lings, doesn't matter if you have +1 or not. You need roaches to kill +1 zealots, and it's not that big an investment. Agreed, if you don't throw down a roach warren in response to a 4gate +1, you will most likely lose right then and there. A lot of the zergs I've faced try to skimp on roaches and just build lings and spine, and they just don't cut it.
Thanks ^^
When I played toss for a week, 4gate +1 won every game I did it. It was fucking funny, like how hard is it to scout gas timing at 6:30 and get a roach warren? Some people confuse me 
However, I think it is very hard to tell the difference between a 2gas 7gate +1 and just 4gate +1 pressure, and from there is it 4gate +1 into an all in like 7gate +2 blink? Is it immortal/sentry? Is he expanding off twilight or robo?
ZvP is a hard matchup, and scouting is hard. I almost lost to a guy who went fast robo into hidden stargate/robo expand...happened to be a BO win against my mutas, and I would've simply lost if he hadn't completely forgotten to multitask (FF ramp while harassing phoenix; I just walked in and killed him lol).
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On October 07 2012 12:28 Mavvie wrote:
However, I think it is very hard to tell the difference between a 2gas 7gate +1 and just 4gate +1 pressure, and from there is it 4gate +1 into an all in like 7gate +2 blink? Is it immortal/sentry? Is he expanding off twilight or robo?
One thing I realized, but have not tested out yet, is that if he goes 4gate +1 into any other 2-base allin, you should have time for hydras, or maybe even infestors. If he goes straight into immo/sentry though, you have to be extremely sharp with your tech to have it kick in in time (and you can't do roaches with either; it's either hydra/ling or infestor/ling). I think either hydras or infestors with roaches are pretty good responses to most 2-base allin transitions off of 4gate +1.
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EPT
