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On October 05 2012 18:38 oZe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 04:56 MstrJinbo wrote:On October 04 2012 23:14 AshenCZ wrote:On October 04 2012 04:05 Henk wrote:On October 04 2012 02:56 AshenCZ wrote:Hi, I just played ridiculous ZvZ because of my opponent going muta - how MANY spores per base if he goes muta and I go roach/infestor? I built 2 but he had like 16 mutas so that was kinda EZ for him  Resulted in 51 minute game with me having 18 Brood Lords at the end :-D Crazy scenarios with base trading included :-D So how many spores should protect me against like +/- 18 mutas till I get my festors out? Thanks! EDIT: Or are mass queens the answer? I had 4 of them to protect 2 bases but again, against that many mutas it just isn't fair... poor queens  The counter is scouting. You did not scout, or you would've seen him going mutas before 16 of them were in your base. Secondly, your tech was probably late. Before your enemy has 16 mutas you will surely have infestors out, and queens+spores+infestors will deal with mutas just fine. Post a replay if you feel like my advice isn't enough, and you would like me or someone else to take a look. wrong. I scouted the spire half way up but I didn't know how to properly react... do I rush infestors? do I mass queen? do I mass spore? That's why I asked. Thanks for nothing. I'm going to pile on a bit. But if you included the replay, people would not have to guess on the game state. Also you should try to be nice to others offering advice. People can write, but they cannot read. He asks "So how many spores should protect me against like +/- 18 mutas till I get my festors out?" and you respond with "Scout better" OMFG ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Aaaand this is where you're wrong. If I post the question 'How do I deal with a sentry immortal all in after I've made 90 drones and no units' you're saying you would not say 'scout better'?
He wouldn't have to ask this question if he scouted better. Preventing the problem alltogether usually works better than solving it on the go.
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On October 04 2012 23:47 AshenCZ wrote:
That guy I played against made like 15 spines at his natural so a counter attack failed to deliver :-D About hydras - can you really support hydras on 2 bases?
When i scout a spire i go for a fast third and protect it from lings with roaches, then when you see mutas flying out you make hydras into infest, take the 5th & 6th gas at your third, defend, attack, GG.
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On October 05 2012 18:38 oZe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 04:56 MstrJinbo wrote:On October 04 2012 23:14 AshenCZ wrote:On October 04 2012 04:05 Henk wrote:On October 04 2012 02:56 AshenCZ wrote:Hi, I just played ridiculous ZvZ because of my opponent going muta - how MANY spores per base if he goes muta and I go roach/infestor? I built 2 but he had like 16 mutas so that was kinda EZ for him Resulted in 51 minute game with me having 18 Brood Lords at the end :-D Crazy scenarios with base trading included :-D So how many spores should protect me against like +/- 18 mutas till I get my festors out? Thanks! EDIT: Or are mass queens the answer? I had 4 of them to protect 2 bases but again, against that many mutas it just isn't fair... poor queens The counter is scouting. You did not scout, or you would've seen him going mutas before 16 of them were in your base. Secondly, your tech was probably late. Before your enemy has 16 mutas you will surely have infestors out, and queens+spores+infestors will deal with mutas just fine. Post a replay if you feel like my advice isn't enough, and you would like me or someone else to take a look. wrong. I scouted the spire half way up but I didn't know how to properly react... do I rush infestors? do I mass queen? do I mass spore? That's why I asked. Thanks for nothing. I'm going to pile on a bit. But if you included the replay, people would not have to guess on the game state. Also you should try to be nice to others offering advice. People can write, but they cannot read. He asks "So how many spores should protect me against like +/- 18 mutas till I get my festors out?" and you respond with "Scout better" OMFG ^^^^^^^^^^^^
The reason is because no amount of spore will protect you from 18 mutas.
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On October 05 2012 15:58 Defenestrator wrote:
I had a question about ling micro in ZvP. I always seem to have terrible engagements vs toss with lings. How do you micro/engage with lings when:
1. You're defending? Are there different ways to micro lings depending on the composition you're facing?
2. You're attacking into him, and he's walled off?
Thanks.
The micro is the same in ZvT, you need to run your think through/around their units in order to get maximum surface area. If you just a-move, the your lings will derp around behind each other before finally finding a hole to attack in. Also, if the stalker ball gets too big, then lings suck without infestor support.
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On October 05 2012 16:31 nunez wrote:
anyone have any good advice for builds if you spawn horizontal zvt on entombed?
Whenever I get those positions, I do a roach/ling/bane all in. Those positions are just stupid.
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On October 05 2012 18:38 oZe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 04:56 MstrJinbo wrote:On October 04 2012 23:14 AshenCZ wrote:On October 04 2012 04:05 Henk wrote:On October 04 2012 02:56 AshenCZ wrote:Hi, I just played ridiculous ZvZ because of my opponent going muta - how MANY spores per base if he goes muta and I go roach/infestor? I built 2 but he had like 16 mutas so that was kinda EZ for him Resulted in 51 minute game with me having 18 Brood Lords at the end :-D Crazy scenarios with base trading included :-D So how many spores should protect me against like +/- 18 mutas till I get my festors out? Thanks! EDIT: Or are mass queens the answer? I had 4 of them to protect 2 bases but again, against that many mutas it just isn't fair... poor queens The counter is scouting. You did not scout, or you would've seen him going mutas before 16 of them were in your base. Secondly, your tech was probably late. Before your enemy has 16 mutas you will surely have infestors out, and queens+spores+infestors will deal with mutas just fine. Post a replay if you feel like my advice isn't enough, and you would like me or someone else to take a look. wrong. I scouted the spire half way up but I didn't know how to properly react... do I rush infestors? do I mass queen? do I mass spore? That's why I asked. Thanks for nothing. I'm going to pile on a bit. But if you included the replay, people would not have to guess on the game state. Also you should try to be nice to others offering advice. People can write, but they cannot read. He asks "So how many spores should protect me against like +/- 18 mutas till I get my festors out?" and you respond with "Scout better" OMFG ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thank you random guy, this was pretty much spot on
For all others - I imagined something like - when you see a spire going up, you take 3rd, protect it with roaches against lings and rush infestors to defend the muta in time.
Easy, clean and simple answer like this would do the trick. I don't usually rush the infestors out when I get lair - I get 1/1 going, roach speed and then eventually start getting infestors. Now I know that if I see a spire, Spores and queens aren't gonna cut it and I desperately need infestors and if I feel scared even hydras will help a ton.
Thanks!
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On October 05 2012 23:08 AshenCZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 18:38 oZe wrote:On October 05 2012 04:56 MstrJinbo wrote:On October 04 2012 23:14 AshenCZ wrote:On October 04 2012 04:05 Henk wrote:On October 04 2012 02:56 AshenCZ wrote:Hi, I just played ridiculous ZvZ because of my opponent going muta - how MANY spores per base if he goes muta and I go roach/infestor? I built 2 but he had like 16 mutas so that was kinda EZ for him Resulted in 51 minute game with me having 18 Brood Lords at the end :-D Crazy scenarios with base trading included :-D So how many spores should protect me against like +/- 18 mutas till I get my festors out? Thanks! EDIT: Or are mass queens the answer? I had 4 of them to protect 2 bases but again, against that many mutas it just isn't fair... poor queens The counter is scouting. You did not scout, or you would've seen him going mutas before 16 of them were in your base. Secondly, your tech was probably late. Before your enemy has 16 mutas you will surely have infestors out, and queens+spores+infestors will deal with mutas just fine. Post a replay if you feel like my advice isn't enough, and you would like me or someone else to take a look. wrong. I scouted the spire half way up but I didn't know how to properly react... do I rush infestors? do I mass queen? do I mass spore? That's why I asked. Thanks for nothing. I'm going to pile on a bit. But if you included the replay, people would not have to guess on the game state. Also you should try to be nice to others offering advice. People can write, but they cannot read. He asks "So how many spores should protect me against like +/- 18 mutas till I get my festors out?" and you respond with "Scout better" OMFG ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Thank you random guy, this was pretty much spot on For all others - I imagined something like - when you see a spire going up, you take 3rd, protect it with roaches against lings and rush infestors to defend the muta in time. Easy, clean and simple answer like this would do the trick. I don't usually rush the infestors out when I get lair - I get 1/1 going, roach speed and then eventually start getting infestors. Now I know that if I see a spire, Spores and queens aren't gonna cut it and I desperately need infestors and if I feel scared even hydras will help a ton. Thanks!
Infestors should be out by the time the other guy gets 18 mutas. 18 is about when the muta flocks start becoming hard to deal with without infestors. The spores main role is to set zone out the mutas and protect queens and vital tech structures. Queens with their 7 range will chase mutas away. So for spores having 3 in good positions are about as good as having 6. Lots of queens (I often get 6) will help a great deal especially if you take a third.
As for scouting, you should keep an eye on the 3rd and 4th gas. If they take it early you should be suspicious of possible mutas. Scouting the spire building is nice but if you scout the spire after you invest a ton of resources into roaches then you defense will naturally be weaker. It sounds like were defending 2 bases. Infestors should be out by the time they have 18 mutas. One does not just build 18 mutas. Usually you see 8-10 at first and they slowly add more. Often they will stop at 10 and transition to roach infestor. So it is critical to know if hes still building mutas. if you see the muta number increase you can add additional spores, but you should also try to streamline your infestor tech as the mere presence of infestors will make it too risky to try and do damage with mutas.
Again if you have a replay we can give more useful advice rather than the generic ones. My best guess is that you built too many roaches which slowed down infestors too much. But I can't say for sure without a replay
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Thanks jimbo! I just wasn't sure at all if I even should make infestors really really fast (asap) when going roach infestor so my defense really staggered I now know that if I see mutas I should rush the infestors as soon as I can and even when I do not see mutas I should make them really fast Thanks
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Haha, I just played the weirdest ZvZ yesterday.
It's 2base muta against 2 base muta, but my mutas were significantly faster + higher in number than his. I secured my third while denying his, and killed 2 of his mutas without taking any damage. I figured that only a retard would continue muta production, so I went into roach/hydra/infestor macro mode, completely skimping on units. I then make a lot of roaches to feel safe, delaying my infestors. I skipped spores because I had air superiority. Then, out of nowhere, a flock of like 25 mutas comes in, kills my mutas (nowhere to run), then splits them around and kills everything.
How do I scout mass mutalisk play? How do I prepare for it better? As I saw mentioned above, no amount of spores will work against that many mutas. Also, if he isn't retarded and just splits his mutas and sends 2-3 mutas at infestors to kill them, I feel like there's nothing I can do. Sorry for no rep, sc2gears was bugging out D:
I'm also interested in some early-game aggression builds that aren't cheesy/all-in. I've played against a few guys on ladder who would drone up both their bases, then hit me with ~6 banes and a ton of lings. It's more effective than I thought; I can't tech or take a third for fear of getting busted, while the heavy ling player has tons of map control. Any of you guys use this strategy? Any tips/link to a guide would be appreciated
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On October 06 2012 00:29 AshenCZ wrote:Thanks jimbo! I just wasn't sure at all if I even should make infestors really really fast (asap) when going roach infestor so my defense really staggered I now know that if I see mutas I should rush the infestors as soon as I can and even when I do not see mutas I should make them really fast Thanks
It's unfortunately not an easy question to answer. There are still muta/ling or muta/ling/bane Allins they can do especially if you take a third. So you still need units to defend those. the important thing is not getting infestors super fast but get them in time to deal with these larger muta flocks when queens and spores no longer cut it. You still need to make drones, units and tech as normal. Also you don't want to overcommit to defending mutas if they are going to transition to roaches.
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On October 06 2012 00:48 Mavvie wrote:Haha, I just played the weirdest ZvZ yesterday. It's 2base muta against 2 base muta, but my mutas were significantly faster + higher in number than his. I secured my third while denying his, and killed 2 of his mutas without taking any damage. I figured that only a retard would continue muta production, so I went into roach/hydra/infestor macro mode, completely skimping on units. I then make a lot of roaches to feel safe, delaying my infestors. I skipped spores because I had air superiority. Then, out of nowhere, a flock of like 25 mutas comes in, kills my mutas (nowhere to run), then splits them around and kills everything. How do I scout mass mutalisk play? How do I prepare for it better? As I saw mentioned above, no amount of spores will work against that many mutas. Also, if he isn't retarded and just splits his mutas and sends 2-3 mutas at infestors to kill them, I feel like there's nothing I can do. Sorry for no rep, sc2gears was bugging out D: I'm also interested in some early-game aggression builds that aren't cheesy/all-in. I've played against a few guys on ladder who would drone up both their bases, then hit me with ~6 banes and a ton of lings. It's more effective than I thought; I can't tech or take a third for fear of getting busted, while the heavy ling player has tons of map control. Any of you guys use this strategy? Any tips/link to a guide would be appreciated
I figured that only a retard would continue muta production
this is where you are very wrong
In mutalisk vs mutalisk, you can't stop making mutalisks or you lose. In a muta vs muta battle, whoever has a slight edge will win the battle by an absolute landslide. 24 mutalisks vs 20 mutalisks will end up with something crazy like 12 mutalisks surviving and you can't come back from that deficit, because you will lose a base and be down on gas and it just gets worse and worse.
You have to spend every single gas on mutalisks, and all your minerals on expansions and lings, fight non-stop with zerglings to try to deny his expansions so that you get a slight gas advantage.
The defender will always have the advantage in a mutalisk fight, partly because of spores and queens, but mostly because of faster reinforcements. The new mutalisks will arrive during the battle boosting his numbers, so you can't exactly fight on his half of the map without taking losses.
But if you DO attack with mutalisks, and he has spent any gas on anything not a mutalisk, you will crush him. so he has to keep making mutalisks, and you need to be just aggressive enough to keep him on edge, but not so aggressive that you overcommit and take losses.
be very aggressive with lings, defend with mutalisks and some lings. When you know where his mutalisks are (because he is using them to kill your lings), go somewhere else with your mutalisks and kill an extractor. Always scout ahead with a mutalisk in case he tries an infestor switch. don't fly anwhere that you would get trapped.
only make the infestor switch when you feel like you have a comfortable mutalisk lead, and even while making the switch, you can't afford to bank gas for infestors, you need to continue muta production and squeeze out infestors little by little.
if you want to watch awesome muta vs muta games, look at violet vs Nerchio at IEM. There was a game where violet made the infestor switch too early and got smacked because of it (cloud kingdom, maybe?) and there was a game that escalated up to 40+ mutalisks (entombed), nerchio made the late infestor switch, and just barely survived with the help of mass queen transfusing mutalisks, even though he had been denying violet bases with lings pretty effectively. and then once the infestors were out, violet let himself get cornered.
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Thanks a ton man!
So are you saying that if I go 2 base mutalisk and plan on switching into roach/infestor macro after making 10, I'll lose to 2 base mutalisk that keeps making mutas? I remember chaos's ZvZ guide that talked about muta/ling vs muta/ling and how crazy it was, massing lings and hatcheries and mutas against him doing the same, counterattacks everywhere.
Yeah I figured mass mutalisk was just cheesy, but I see your point. If I had kept up muta production I would've had more and been able to deny any multiprong, which would've helped. I'll be sure to watch those games!
Thanks again, really helped clear things up
I'm still not sure what to do in ZvZ. I've got the infestor/spine turtle down in ZvP, ling/infestor double evo down in ZvT, but I'm so clueless as to what to do in ZvZ. I'm considering that ZvZ version of ling/infestor double evo, but I'm not sure.
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hey i have a question about zvt... i like the muta/ling/bling style, but i dont know when to take gas and/or a third when it goes into a macro game with no weird cheeses or something like that. anyone got an answer for this? thanks
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Mavvie - I switched to Zerg not a week ago but I've played ZvZs and broke them down and really saw roach/infestor as (for me) most fun to play playstyle You go like 15 hatch 15 gas 15 pool into speed bane lair roach and then infestor with double evo, take a third and roach war. I love that style It's probably completely broken and people here will tell you not to do it because of the mistakes it has (I dunno about any but I am a noob :D) just another POV for you I guess I used to be Diamond protoss but I am like gold-plat zerg at MAX. 
I've got the same with late game ZvP and mid game ZvT... no clue what to do to NOT die to pushes or like really well executed harass :-D
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So are you saying that if I go 2 base mutalisk and plan on switching into roach/infestor macro after making 10, I'll lose to 2 base mutalisk that keeps making mutas? I remember chaos's ZvZ guide that talked about muta/ling vs muta/ling and how crazy it was, massing lings and hatcheries and mutas against him doing the same, counterattacks everywhere.
Chaos's guide has it exactly right. it's not exactly 2 base mutalisk anymore because you are both going to be expanding like crazy and denying expansions, but you should be able to hold your 3rds.
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On October 06 2012 02:20 Oboeman wrote:
Chaos's guide has it exactly right. it's not exactly 2 base mutalisk anymore because you are both going to be expanding like crazy and denying expansions, but you should be able to hold your 3rds.
And if you denied his third to begin with, that's a great situation, because you can match him muta-for-muta with a slow infestor transition.
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On October 06 2012 02:12 AshenCZ wrote:Mavvie - I switched to Zerg not a week ago but I've played ZvZs and broke them down and really saw roach/infestor as (for me) most fun to play playstyle You go like 15 hatch 15 gas 15 pool into speed bane lair roach and then infestor with double evo, take a third and roach war. I love that style It's probably completely broken and people here will tell you not to do it because of the mistakes it has (I dunno about any but I am a noob :D) just another POV for you I guess I used to be Diamond protoss but I am like gold-plat zerg at MAX. I've got the same with late game ZvP and mid game ZvT... no clue what to do to NOT die to pushes or like really well executed harass :-D
Man I SUCK against hellion/banshee it makes me want to cry. I'll finally end up defending the harass, and I have 50 drones and 1.5k minerals LOL.
ZvP is pretty easy though; defend any 2-base all-in, turtle with infestor/spine and get broods up just before his 3 base timing kills your last spine.
Yeah, there are a few problems with that general ZvZ gameplan. IMO, there's a few options:
1) Fast third before lair -> roach/hydra (or roach/infestor vs mutas)
2) 2 base roach/infestor (usually single evo) into third, very strong vs mutas, very strong vs 2 base all ins
3) 2 base lair (mutas or infestors are both good), use map control to secure your third
Usually, you always want to get a single evo to pump out missile attack upgrades, then get a second evo for +2/+1 if you're going for roaches. 2/0 roaches demolish 2/1 roaches. 2/2 roach/hydra will demolish any sort of roach/infestor army.
@Oboeman and iggym:
Awesome. Yeah, I was ahead and threw the game away for sure. I'll be sure to reread that part of the guide, but isn't most of the content in his guides severely outdated?
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On October 06 2012 02:06 erw wrote:
hey i have a question about zvt... i like the muta/ling/bling style, but i dont know when to take gas and/or a third when it goes into a macro game with no weird cheeses or something like that. anyone got an answer for this? thanks
I usually open 15 hatch/16gas/15 pool
I really like this build as the gas basically times the build for you. When you get for first 100 gas get ling speed, second hundred gas -> lair, lair should pop just a little before you get enough gas for spire. Once you put down your spire take the rest of your gases cause you will need a lot for mutas.
As for third expansion it depends a lot on what you scout (you should drone scout). If you see cc first from him I would just get two hatches before pool. If he goes rax -> CC and then follows up with hellion/banshee which is pretty much metagame I take my third as soon as mutas are out to push back the hellions and banshees. They you can also take a 4th really quickly if you so desire. If he looks like he is powering instead of going hellion/banshee i would take my third as soon as I saturate my first two base.
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Hi,
I am diamond Zerg and have troubles with new Terran style (1 Rax FE, into hellions, into Cloaked banshee and fast third). I used to go for 6 queens, now I've heard that 4 queens with quicker gas is better. But after taht I have no idea what to do.
Questions:
- When to take 3rd base?
- When take gases again (how many)
- always go roach bane with this into muta? (vortix style)
- When to go for Infestors?
- For how long can I drone up safely?
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On October 06 2012 02:43 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 02:12 AshenCZ wrote:Mavvie - I switched to Zerg not a week ago but I've played ZvZs and broke them down and really saw roach/infestor as (for me) most fun to play playstyle You go like 15 hatch 15 gas 15 pool into speed bane lair roach and then infestor with double evo, take a third and roach war. I love that style It's probably completely broken and people here will tell you not to do it because of the mistakes it has (I dunno about any but I am a noob :D) just another POV for you I guess I used to be Diamond protoss but I am like gold-plat zerg at MAX. I've got the same with late game ZvP and mid game ZvT... no clue what to do to NOT die to pushes or like really well executed harass :-D Man I SUCK against hellion/banshee it makes me want to cry. I'll finally end up defending the harass, and I have 50 drones and 1.5k minerals LOL. ZvP is pretty easy though; defend any 2-base all-in, turtle with infestor/spine and get broods up just before his 3 base timing kills your last spine. Yeah, there are a few problems with that general ZvZ gameplan. IMO, there's a few options: 1) Fast third before lair -> roach/hydra (or roach/infestor vs mutas) 2) 2 base roach/infestor (usually single evo) into third, very strong vs mutas, very strong vs 2 base all ins3) 2 base lair (mutas or infestors are both good), use map control to secure your third Usually, you always want to get a single evo to pump out missile attack upgrades, then get a second evo for +2/+1 if you're going for roaches. 2/0 roaches demolish 2/1 roaches. 2/2 roach/hydra will demolish any sort of roach/infestor army. @Oboeman and iggym: Awesome. Yeah, I was ahead and threw the game away for sure. I'll be sure to reread that part of the guide, but isn't most of the content in his guides severely outdated?
2 base roach infestor into third is actually awful vs 2 base muta, unless you have creep spread all the way to your third (rare for most ppl) the muta player can just spread out and deny your third while taking his own
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EPT
