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On October 03 2012 05:59 Mavvie wrote:
Wow, I understand why people vetoe condemned ridge. I played against a 2-base rine/tank/medivac all-in, and due to good macro I crush his initial attack and have ~15 drones at my third too. Then, he drops + sieges up at the cliff above my third. I took ~10 drones and a lot of lings of losses to an army that shouldn't have been able to touch me. Damn.
What's the best way to deal with something like this? I threw down IT/fungal, queens absorbed fire as I ran lings up the ramp of the cliff, but it is a very inefficient, dangerous way to deal with it. If he started his attack there, I might've lost; tanks are in range of hatch and I didn't have infestor tech out at that time.
If you are watching for drops there's no way he can get his tanks in position without getting spotted. Sounds like the only reason it worked was because there was an attack at the front you had to deal with. He had no third and his attack failed. The drop also made the attack on the front weaker. Maybe work on pulling your drones faster. It couldn't have been more than a couple tanks and those take a long time to kill a hatch. So trading zerglings and infestor energy for tanks doesnt seem so bad.
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On October 03 2012 05:59 Mavvie wrote:
Wow, I understand why people vetoe condemned ridge. I played against a 2-base rine/tank/medivac all-in, and due to good macro I crush his initial attack and have ~15 drones at my third too. Then, he drops + sieges up at the cliff above my third. I took ~10 drones and a lot of lings of losses to an army that shouldn't have been able to touch me. Damn.
What's the best way to deal with something like this? I threw down IT/fungal, queens absorbed fire as I ran lings up the ramp of the cliff, but it is a very inefficient, dangerous way to deal with it. If he started his attack there, I might've lost; tanks are in range of hatch and I didn't have infestor tech out at that time.
I like condemned ridge ridge, but to answer your question there are several ways to deal with that ledge. First you should have plenty of ol coverage around your third since there is so much dead space and hopefully you can pick up on the drop right away so you can be prepared. It also would be a good idea to spread creep either with tumors or ol then you can put spores and spines on the ridge to deter drops. Also for me if i crushed his initial push and decided to macro behind i would be getting spire tech and you could make 5 corruptors to patrol that area for drops. Corruptors are a good unit to mix in your ling infestor army cause they can pick off drops and kill off fungal'd medivacs and you can use them later for bl's.
Most importantly though after you kill his inital push you need to position your units defensively. You should be taking immdeitate map control with lings and spreading creep. With that you will have so much time to prepare for a push that you can repostion your lings and festors in your main and at third to instantly deny any doom drops.
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Awesome, thanks for the tips guys!
Yeah my overlord coverage is pretty bad; I get them into position to sac, but rarely in good spots to spot for drops. I couldn't deny him from sieging because
1) I scouted it too late; half the units were unloaded when I noticed
2) I had no units; I crushed his push, didn't expect him to do a tank drop lol
I had no trouble closing out the game, but just find the map silly. IMO it's one of the reasons that no tournaments use the map.
Also, no chance in hell that I'd build a spore ring against a 2base all in unless it's something like quadport banshee...
I'll focus more on overlord placement, and I guess that you break it like any other tank line; IT to absorb first shots, then queens, then lings engage.
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On October 03 2012 12:20 Mavvie wrote:
Awesome, thanks for the tips guys!
Yeah my overlord coverage is pretty bad; I get them into position to sac, but rarely in good spots to spot for drops. I couldn't deny him from sieging because
1) I scouted it too late; half the units were unloaded when I noticed
2) I had no units; I crushed his push, didn't expect him to do a tank drop lol
I had no trouble closing out the game, but just find the map silly. IMO it's one of the reasons that no tournaments use the map.
Also, no chance in hell that I'd build a spore ring against a 2base all in unless it's something like quadport banshee...
I'll focus more on overlord placement, and I guess that you break it like any other tank line; IT to absorb first shots, then queens, then lings engage.
One thing that also hasn't been mentioned is that if you're worried about a drop, you can just keep a handful of units up there until they're needed (like you would do with infestor/lings at bases to stop drops). As long as he doesn't push while dropping, you should be fine.
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At ALL times in ZVT you should pretty much have 2-4 banes and 10 lings there ready to defend bases. It counters drops so hard and sometimes spines just wont do the trick because rines are so mauverable and DPS crazy
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Are there any good vods or teaching vids of people going bl zvt? I seem to start getting dropped all over the place and losing my bl's anyways because my army's so immobile. It's easy for terran to pump out vikings and I have a hard time micro'ing and being cost effective with corrupter bl infestor. The vods I've seen usually end up with the terran dealing with the bl super cost effectively, but then the zerg goes ultras or roach and then wins.
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On October 03 2012 13:57 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 12:20 Mavvie wrote:
Awesome, thanks for the tips guys!
Yeah my overlord coverage is pretty bad; I get them into position to sac, but rarely in good spots to spot for drops. I couldn't deny him from sieging because
1) I scouted it too late; half the units were unloaded when I noticed
2) I had no units; I crushed his push, didn't expect him to do a tank drop lol
I had no trouble closing out the game, but just find the map silly. IMO it's one of the reasons that no tournaments use the map.
Also, no chance in hell that I'd build a spore ring against a 2base all in unless it's something like quadport banshee...
I'll focus more on overlord placement, and I guess that you break it like any other tank line; IT to absorb first shots, then queens, then lings engage. One thing that also hasn't been mentioned is that if you're worried about a drop, you can just keep a handful of units up there until they're needed (like you would do with infestor/lings at bases to stop drops). As long as he doesn't push while dropping, you should be fine.
That's basically what happened though. There was a push at the front and drop at the back of the third. Single drops almost never do damage. It has to be multipronged drops or drop accompanying a push at the front.
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Hi, I just played ridiculous ZvZ because of my opponent going muta - how MANY spores per base if he goes muta and I go roach/infestor? I built 2 but he had like 16 mutas so that was kinda EZ for him  Resulted in 51 minute game with me having 18 Brood Lords at the end :-D Crazy scenarios with base trading included :-D So how many spores should protect me against like +/- 18 mutas till I get my festors out?
Thanks!
EDIT: Or are mass queens the answer? I had 4 of them to protect 2 bases but again, against that many mutas it just isn't fair... poor queens 
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On October 04 2012 02:56 AshenCZ wrote:Hi, I just played ridiculous ZvZ because of my opponent going muta - how MANY spores per base if he goes muta and I go roach/infestor? I built 2 but he had like 16 mutas so that was kinda EZ for him Resulted in 51 minute game with me having 18 Brood Lords at the end :-D Crazy scenarios with base trading included :-D So how many spores should protect me against like +/- 18 mutas till I get my festors out? Thanks! EDIT: Or are mass queens the answer? I had 4 of them to protect 2 bases but again, against that many mutas it just isn't fair... poor queens
The counter is scouting. You did not scout, or you would've seen him going mutas before 16 of them were in your base. Secondly, your tech was probably late. Before your enemy has 16 mutas you will surely have infestors out, and queens+spores+infestors will deal with mutas just fine.
Post a replay if you feel like my advice isn't enough, and you would like me or someone else to take a look.
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Canada161 Posts
Hi, I just lost a ZvZ vs a zerg 10pooling while bringing 8 drones with him, and leaving 4 in his base mining. He came into my base and made 2 spines. I opened 15 hatch, 15 pool, is there a way to stop this while opening 15 hatch? I keep trying to think of ways, but delaying for lings will let his spines finish, and just attacking with drones vs the 6drones 6lings will just get me killed. Is there a solution to beat this? I feel really stumped at this. Low masters by the way.
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^Nope. You lose if he does 10 pool 8/12 drones pulled if you open hatch first. Simple as that. The solution I use is to drone scout on 2 player maps, and simply open 15p/16h/17g on 4 player ones if I don't scout him with my overlord. Only way to avoid build order loss.
I mean, it's been defended before even at high levels, but you have to severely outmicro them/they have to screw up hard.
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Canada161 Posts
On October 04 2012 05:46 Mavvie wrote:
^Nope. You lose if he does 10 pool 8/12 drones pulled if you open hatch first. Simple as that. The solution I use is to drone scout on 2 player maps, and simply open 15p/16h/17g on 4 player ones if I don't scout him with my overlord. Only way to avoid build order loss.
I mean, it's been defended before even at high levels, but you have to severely outmicro them/they have to screw up hard.
Yea that seems to be what most people I ask say. But, I mean, so many people go 15 hatch no drone scout. If so many people do that, there MUST be a way to defend it, no? Or else this build would be used so much more in tourneys since going 15 hatch is very standard.
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If you wanna be safe its much better to go 15 pool 16 hatch imo.
The advantage you get when going 15 hatch vs 15 pool is lost when you drone scout it seems to be better to just 15 pool if you always want to be safe.
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^Agreed, but if you scout his hatch first you can block it and go 17g/17p yourself. So IMO it's worth it, but yeah it's not much of a difference
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I absolutely cannot beat a protoss deathball featuring more than 2 colossus. I've never once done it. I know it's all about attack angles and flanking and fungal growth, but it's SO MUCH MICRO vs. the 1A spam click force fields that my opponent has to do.
Any suggestions on how I can take one down? We're talking a typical stalker/sentry/colossus death ball.
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On October 04 2012 06:15 Falcon-sw wrote:
I absolutely cannot beat a protoss deathball featuring more than 2 colossus. I've never once done it. I know it's all about attack angles and flanking and fungal growth, but it's SO MUCH MICRO vs. the 1A spam click force fields that my opponent has to do.
Any suggestions on how I can take one down? We're talking a typical stalker/sentry/colossus death ball.
You really need to be more specific than this. What timing is he using? What opening does he use? How many bases does he have before he pushes? How does he put pressure on you before the collossi push?
As of right now we can't help you other than theorize about microing various unit compositions vs his composition which any good player will tell you is useless banter.
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Hey, I'd like to know any high level Zergs thoughts on this way of defeating the sentry/immortal all-in:
http://drop.sc/261189
In the replay, I scout standard FFE and take a third like any sane Zerg would. His gas timings threw me off a little, but upon further scouting he was just doing a sub-optimal sentry/immortal all-in. He moved out ~30-45 seconds late because of this. I was able to get infestors out in time, and if I'd made an 8:00 macro hatch and drones instead of lings (I thought he was gonna do gateway pressure because no gas at natural), then I would've easily crushed his push right as it started. No flanks necessary, just fungal, fungal, then surround and win.
Thoughts? Would this work against a faster, better executed timing, or am I just lucky that he didn't do it right?
I end up going 3 base ultras because #yolo, also he warped in like 10 sentries and had no immortals so I figured that ultras would make GG, and they did.
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On October 04 2012 09:58 Mavvie wrote:Hey, I'd like to know any high level Zergs thoughts on this way of defeating the sentry/immortal all-in: http://drop.sc/261189In the replay, I scout standard FFE and take a third like any sane Zerg would. His gas timings threw me off a little, but upon further scouting he was just doing a sub-optimal sentry/immortal all-in. He moved out ~30-45 seconds late because of this. I was able to get infestors out in time, and if I'd made an 8:00 macro hatch and drones instead of lings (I thought he was gonna do gateway pressure because no gas at natural), then I would've easily crushed his push right as it started. No flanks necessary, just fungal, fungal, then surround and win. Thoughts? Would this work against a faster, better executed timing, or am I just lucky that he didn't do it right? I end up going 3 base ultras because #yolo, also he warped in like 10 sentries and had no immortals so I figured that ultras would make GG, and they did.
His timing was off by a little but that wasn't a macro issue he just didn't push out with units as fast as he could have. I didn't really pay attention to what he was doing but he got his nat gas at 7 and i believe that is pretty standard.
You gas'd at 25 supply which typically people don't gas until 44 supply. I feel like you got very luck by blind countering his build. You rushed infestors with no evos or upgrades. If he scouted and warped in zealots rather than stalkers then later zealots again instead of sentries it would probably had been gg.
You played a very risky style and it paid off but I see you losing to a lot of other timings doing this. No roaches or roach speed and straight to infestors with no upgrades not a very safe way to play.
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^I think you're misunderstanding my game plan.
In an ideal game, I'd take my first gas at 4:30 (I know this isn't standard, but it ends up being great if I don't get gateway all-inned, and okay if I do). Then, I play a standard macro game with slightly fewer minerals. Speed -> lair + 2nd gas. If I scout no gas at toss natural ~6:30 then I get a roach warren and use speedlings to delay his proxy pylons. Overlord sac tells me if it's a 7gate or just 4gate +1; just affects how many roaches I make.
If there IS gas at his natural ~6:30, then I skip roach tech entirely to make up for the economic loss of taking a fast gas. 8:30 macro hatch, standard stuff. But I start my lair >1 minute sooner than standard 3 hatch macro timings. It's a build Nestea used a few times. With the fast lair, you can get 10:30 mutas with a huge economy, and man does that wreck shit up. Double expand, standard muta/ling stuff just stronger. However, this game I scouted an immortal/sentry all-in. I have had terrible experiences with muta vs 7gate immortal/sentry in the past, so thought "fuck it, let's go infestors!". I shouldn't have skipped evos, oh well. I would've killed for 1/1 lings to meet his push.
Standard gas timings for sentry/immortal off a nexus first is 6:00 3rd gas, 6:25 4th gas. He had 0 at slightly past 6:30, so I read this as gateway aggression or all-in. Bad. Then he just did a delayed gas sentry/immortal, but he forced 12? lings out of me way earlier than I wanted to make any. If those were drones I could've got a macro hatch, more lings, more infestors, more spines when he hit.
You played a very risky style and it paid off but I see you losing to a lot of other timings doing this. No roaches or roach speed and straight to infestors with no upgrades not a very safe way to play.
But it's not risky if I scout and know what's coming. At any point, if I scouted something that I can't defend with 10:30 infestors and lings, I could have diverged into standard roach/ling defence. Not getting a 7:15 spore was risky, but again no gas at natural means he /probably/ isn't doing 2x stargate or anything crazy. And I did overlord sac and scout a robo.
Sure, it's greedy play, but that's like saying a fast third is greedy vs 1rax FE because you never know, he could be doing a 7rax!
TL;DR I wasn't playing blind, and if he didn't take late gasses I could say that I knew what he was doing from 6:30 until the end.
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On October 04 2012 09:58 Mavvie wrote:Hey, I'd like to know any high level Zergs thoughts on this way of defeating the sentry/immortal all-in: http://drop.sc/261189In the replay, I scout standard FFE and take a third like any sane Zerg would. His gas timings threw me off a little, but upon further scouting he was just doing a sub-optimal sentry/immortal all-in. He moved out ~30-45 seconds late because of this. I was able to get infestors out in time, and if I'd made an 8:00 macro hatch and drones instead of lings (I thought he was gonna do gateway pressure because no gas at natural), then I would've easily crushed his push right as it started. No flanks necessary, just fungal, fungal, then surround and win. Thoughts? Would this work against a faster, better executed timing, or am I just lucky that he didn't do it right? I end up going 3 base ultras because #yolo, also he warped in like 10 sentries and had no immortals so I figured that ultras would make GG, and they did.
Ok yeah he did a very sub-optimal build here. His robo was late, his gas was late, his sentries were late, and his gates were late. He also didn't do immortal/sentry. His moveout was almost entirely stalkers with the 3 immortals. A normal arrival time is about 40 seconds off as you noticed. It also contains 12 sentries. Not 2. The power of this build is in the sentries, which quite literally he did possess even 20% of what he needed to be any sort of danger.
Due to his weird way of doing this, you actually had no idea he was doing this until you went in the second overlord to his main and spotted the chrono'd robo with the 6 gates warping in. This overlord scout was actually quite late and would've been stopped cold by most good protoss.
This Protoss also for whatever reason elected to place his robo in a very obvious spot where you could easily see it. Most protoss in mid or high masters and higher will place the robo in the natural where a stalker/sentry combo prevents overlord or ling scouting or they stick it way over on the other side so your overlord takes the maximum amount of travel time from the ledge until it actually sees anything and thus giving them the most time to react and sent some AA up there to deny it.
While you still managed to macro up to a point where you could've hit 70 supply at the 8 minute benchmark, your build doesn't get enough gas to stop the more dangerous 2 base timings like the +2 blink 7 or 8 gate all-in.
His engagement choice was also terrible. Most protoss would've gone right in your third and ff'd a wall between the edge of your hatches and cutting your lings in half. His first warp-in at your third would've been probably nearly entirely zealots and the second one being entirely stalkers. Basically you faced a really really easily beatable build. It almost didn't matter what you did just because you making any sort of units would've worked because this guy had no idea how to use his army.
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EPT
