EPTAny aggresive openings or midgame plays that will surprise them?
I'm in bronze, btw.
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 393
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Durmaz21
Sweden52 Posts
Any aggresive openings or midgame plays that will surprise them? I'm in bronze, btw. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On October 01 2012 03:58 Durmaz21 wrote: Any way I can punish Terrans who refuse to move out and instead just turtle on 3 bases or so until they hit 200/200? Any aggresive openings or midgame plays that will surprise them? I'm in bronze, btw. There are a lot of options in the mid-game. However at bronze level I'd recommend just trying to keep your resources low and making sure your initial openings as well as tech are on time. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
He does a double pylon block -> cyber core block with 11gate zealot pressure...seriously I don't even know I thought I'd take a fast gas for ling speed, then I saw him wall off so I figured why not go 1 base muta. Then he shows up with a stalker and I GG out. Ironically enough, this replay is saved as Cloud Kingdom (69). Here: http://drop.sc/259763 Edit: Second time I've lost to this recently...any help is appreciated! | ||
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[Noman]
19 Posts
On October 01 2012 06:21 Mavvie wrote: what do I do against really gay, unorthodox openings from Protoss? He does a double pylon block -> cyber core block with 11gate zealot pressure...seriously I don't even know I thought I'd take a fast gas for ling speed, then I saw him wall off so I figured why not go 1 base muta. Then he shows up with a stalker and I GG out. Ironically enough, this replay is saved as Cloud Kingdom (69). Here: http://drop.sc/259763 Edit: Second time I've lost to this recently...any help is appreciated! I think your response was silly. You should be looking at it this way : in the early game, anything he does to delay you (double pylon block, cyber core) delays him as well. Since a decent toss is good at walling off I think the counterattack idea was ill-fated to begin with (wall+zealot will take down a huge amount of lings) and you had your overlord in a good spot to know that. What you should have done? I would say get as little lings as you need to survive (overlord could see units leaving his base), get 2 queens (one to inject main, one to start spreading creep so queens can defend), take out the blocking structures and play normally. He spent 350 minerals (not counting the zealots, which 2 queens and lings would easily defend against) on being annoying. Macro hatchery before expansion isnt a terrible idea, but IMO queen production is a better way to spend your money. | ||
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gronnelg
Norway354 Posts
On October 01 2012 03:58 Durmaz21 wrote: Any way I can punish Terrans who refuse to move out and instead just turtle on 3 bases or so until they hit 200/200? Any aggresive openings or midgame plays that will surprise them? I'm in bronze, btw. Yes. You can expand a lot, get a lot of money, macro hatches, all the tech and upgrades you want, and get a nasty 200/200 deathball with broodlords, infestors, and corruptors. Spines and spores at any weak point, then just contain him. Don't let him get a 4th. Ever. Let him mine out, and die by himself. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
I tried looking for a thread talking about this build and the reactions you should have against different openings from your opponent but can't find one, can some of you direct me to such a thread if it exists or tell me how you open with that opening depending on what you scout? | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
On October 01 2012 15:05 gronnelg wrote: Yes. You can expand a lot, get a lot of money, macro hatches, all the tech and upgrades you want, and get a nasty 200/200 deathball with broodlords, infestors, and corruptors. Spines and spores at any weak point, then just contain him. Don't let him get a 4th. Ever. Let him mine out, and die by himself. Seriously? He's in Bronze. I'm in Gold, and I can't do that. I can't control Infestors, can't spread creep well enough to mass spines/spores at the right spots, and only recently learnt to keep tabs on expansions semi-decently. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On October 01 2012 18:47 NeonFox wrote: So I'm seeing a lot (like more then half) of zergs going for some sort of 14 pool 16 hatch in ZvZ on ladder. I tried it (getting gas at 16 after hatch and queen right after) but I feel like the gas is late to react to 14/14 aggression openers and gives a lot of map control to the opponent. I typically 15 hatch 15 gas against 14 pools and it already feels like taking gas later would be bad. I tried looking for a thread talking about this build and the reactions you should have against different openings from your opponent but can't find one, can some of you direct me to such a thread if it exists or tell me how you open with that opening depending on what you scout? From what I've seen Gas is actually typically delayed a bit more 17/18 supply than what you tried for the 14 pool 16 hatch. I've also seen a lot of 15p/16h/17-18g which when I tried it out "feels" better (for whatever that is worth) The pool/hatch openers in ZvZ seem to work fairly similar to the economic hatch first variations (15h, 16p, 17g) as opposed to the fast gas/speed variant you are using. You simply will not get speed in time for an all in from a 14 pool. Going baneling before speed can be really good in that situation. If you scout another fast expand it should be ok to go for speed first as long as you are reasonably sure they are droning the natural. But either way you are going to have to cede map control and play defensively. So might as well try to power drone as much as possible until ling speed is finished. | ||
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
On October 01 2012 19:17 Salivanth wrote: Seriously? He's in Bronze. I'm in Gold, and I can't do that. I can't control Infestors, can't spread creep well enough to mass spines/spores at the right spots, and only recently learnt to keep tabs on expansions semi-decently. well to be honest thats what you need to work on... Yes it is harder to play a good eco game than it is to turlte on 2-3 bases, but honestly if he turtles halfway decently (meaning doesnt forget to build turrets and siegetanks against mutas or banelings) there is no way you can break him cost effectively. Basically if he goes for a hardcore turtle take your 4th immediatly, build up to 80 drones and rush for hive. Yes infestor control can be difficult, but on the other hand it is unlikely your opponents will split marines well or presplit their vikings if they go mech. infestor/bl/corruptor can beat any terran army with equal micro, he needs to outmicro you not the other way around. Concerning spines spores, you don't need any creepspread to spine your hive/spire and your 4th. Those areas need them basically on most maps (cloud kingdom spine and spore your natural and position your army between 3rd and 4th instead). Daybreak spine /spore your main and 3rd and position your army at your 4th in the middle. If you reach significant broods before he starts to move out, position your army in front of his wall and start shelling it. It will force an unsiege. | ||
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Drorctopus
Netherlands135 Posts
I'm a high dia zerg and i have got some general questions. I kind of know gas/lair timings but not exactly sure. Could you give me some general timings in every mu for gas/lair timings? | ||
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MiTakko
Canada15 Posts
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On October 01 2012 23:16 MiTakko wrote: In zvp where both players open standard, ffe and double expo, when i scout protoss' 4 gas and robo, how do i tell if its a centry immortal allin or taking a third? After seeing this info i put ling at third, and i dont see it by 9min or so i start massing units or even making a spine at third. But after making my units, the protoss thorws down his third and i dont know what to do with those units..tried attcking the third, and dont usually work out that well, (especially cloud kingdom). I just macro from there into infestors and broodloords, but sometimes i feel like im so behind with all those units that i made and not able to use it. So how do i identify an immortal allin or 3rd? What ae the correct timings for standard 3rd and what should i be looking for if it was immortal allin? Usually 3 gas before 6:30 imply a 3rd is coming up.. But if 4 gas are taken, immortal sentry might be the case. Sometimes a 3rd is taken anyway; you'll have to sac an overlord, or multiple overlords to scout the amount of gates and units he has. | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On October 01 2012 23:22 Henk wrote: Usually 3 gas before 6:30 imply a 3rd is coming up.. But if 4 gas are taken, immortal sentry might be the case. Sometimes a 3rd is taken anyway; you'll have to sac an overlord, or multiple overlords to scout the amount of gates and units he has. Just to add on, 6-8 gates and 8-10 sentries is typical immortal all-in. A lot of immortal expands seem to use 3 or 4 gates and around 6 sentries. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On October 01 2012 22:05 MstrJinbo wrote: From what I've seen Gas is actually typically delayed a bit more 17/18 supply than what you tried for the 14 pool 16 hatch. I've also seen a lot of 15p/16h/17-18g which when I tried it out "feels" better (for whatever that is worth) The pool/hatch openers in ZvZ seem to work fairly similar to the economic hatch first variations (15h, 16p, 17g) as opposed to the fast gas/speed variant you are using. You simply will not get speed in time for an all in from a 14 pool. Going baneling before speed can be really good in that situation. If you scout another fast expand it should be ok to go for speed first as long as you are reasonably sure they are droning the natural. But either way you are going to have to cede map control and play defensively. So might as well try to power drone as much as possible until ling speed is finished. I'll try to delay a bit gas then, I'm not comfortable with baneling before speed but it might be mandatory against agressive 14 pools yeah. When you say 14 pool allin do you mean one base baneling busts or do you include the 20-21 hatch 2 base speedling pushes as well? I think I saw Hyun going for a 14p/16h with earlier gas and just mass speedling into Dimaga's 15 hatch, worked really well I'll try to find the vod to check the timings. Also need to check the timings for maybe a second queen right away and a spine if a 14g/14p player seems to go for early agression. Thanks for the advice! | ||
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MiTakko
Canada15 Posts
On October 01 2012 23:32 Whatson wrote: Just to add on, 6-8 gates and 8-10 sentries is typical immortal all-in. A lot of immortal expands seem to use 3 or 4 gates and around 6 sentries. The last zvp i played i was allin by immortals=( and died horriblly. I dont haepve a rep atm, but basicly he did a good macro and build order for his allin, and i started to make units on 4 hatchs with 59 drones, and i had no time for my units to pop, is that too many drones to fend this build? i watchedthe rep, he warped 7 centris on the way to my base, rather than at home. I didn scout that, is that suppose to be easier to defend since he would have less FFs? If i were suppose to be scouting for centry counts, and the opponent warps centries at proxy, what should i do? | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On October 01 2012 23:22 Henk wrote: Usually 3 gas before 6:30 imply a 3rd is coming up.. But if 4 gas are taken, immortal sentry might be the case. Sometimes a 3rd is taken anyway; you'll have to sac an overlord, or multiple overlords to scout the amount of gates and units he has. You should also send a ling right away to the third when you scout single or double gas at the natural and your 7:00 overlord didn't give you enough info. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On October 01 2012 23:16 MiTakko wrote: In zvp where both players open standard, ffe and double expo, when i scout protoss' 4 gas and robo, how do i tell if its a centry immortal allin or taking a third? After seeing this info i put ling at third, and i dont see it by 9min or so i start massing units or even making a spine at third. But after making my units, the protoss thorws down his third and i dont know what to do with those units..tried attcking the third, and dont usually work out that well, (especially cloud kingdom). I just macro from there into infestors and broodloords, but sometimes i feel like im so behind with all those units that i made and not able to use it. So how do i identify an immortal allin or 3rd? What ae the correct timings for standard 3rd and what should i be looking for if it was immortal allin? Generally, if you see an obs it's less likely to be an all-in. If he kills rocks/postures to take a third, probably not all-in. Either way, against a robo if you aren't sure, make no roaches, just ling and get infestor pit. If he moves out after 10:00 then you'll have infestors in time, free win. Start hive, kill his army, double expo and spine up, you're miles ahead. If he moves out quickly (pre-10:00), then you'll make 15-20 roaches when he moves out. So like, 8:00-9:30 pure lings, you see him move out? Make a round of roaches. Get ready to flank, etc. play it right and you'll win. This all-in isn't really that scary anymore. If you're ever behind (say pylon blocks, zealot/stalker pressure kills a queen, etc) then just mass spines in nat when he moves out and baserace  | ||
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MiTakko
Canada15 Posts
On October 01 2012 23:46 Mavvie wrote: Generally, if you see an obs it's less likely to be an all-in. If he kills rocks/postures to take a third, probably not all-in. Either way, against a robo if you aren't sure, make no roaches, just ling and get infestor pit. If he moves out after 10:00 then you'll have infestors in time, free win. Start hive, kill his army, double expo and spine up, you're miles ahead. If he moves out quickly (pre-10:00), then you'll make 15-20 roaches when he moves out. So like, 8:00-9:30 pure lings, you see him move out? Make a round of roaches. Get ready to flank, etc. play it right and you'll win. This all-in isn't really that scary anymore. If you're ever behind (say pylon blocks, zealot/stalker pressure kills a queen, etc) then just mass spines in nat when he moves out and baserace I was always unsure about infstor ling vs immortal allins, how should i be spending my energies since i would only have about 4 infestors? Kill all centries with fungals then all into infested terrans? Does this work this well against this? I never really tried since most my opponent comes rather earlier and i would not have time to have infestors. | ||
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
On October 02 2012 00:00 MiTakko wrote: I was always unsure about infstor ling vs immortal allins, how should i be spending my energies since i would only have about 4 infestors? Kill all centries with fungals then all into infested terrans? Does this work this well against this? I never really tried since most my opponent comes rather earlier and i would not have time to have infestors. If you dont see attempts to take third from toss I dont think you should be teching to infestors. They are very expensive and if the all in comes early you wont have them on time and teching will make your army smaller, therefore it will be very difficult to defend. I think the most standard play right now is to stay on roach/ling until you see toss trying to secure third. Then you put the infestation pit and 2nd evo. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On October 02 2012 00:00 MiTakko wrote: I was always unsure about infstor ling vs immortal allins, how should i be spending my energies since i would only have about 4 infestors? Kill all centries with fungals then all into infested terrans? Does this work this well against this? I never really tried since most my opponent comes rather earlier and i would not have time to have infestors. For what it's worth, this is my experience against masters protoss in this scenario. After the standard 3 hatch into 6:00 double gas I usually get ling speed, then +1 melee then two more gasses and lair in this order with the gas. If I scout double gas I get the lair before +1 melee, I haven't tried before speed but it could be worth trying out. That way you should have infestors just before or as an immortal sentry or stargate comes (a bit later against stargate but the first few void rays/phoenixes are managable with queens). Just pump as many lings as you can from 4 hatches (a macro hatch a bit after you start lair is mandatory in this case). Delay as much as possible and don't be scared to put down spines with extra minerals if you can't spend it all, 4-5 spines at the third and 2-3 at the natural works well. I don't build roaches vs this at all and it's been a long time since I lost against it, to be fair protosses seem to use it a lot less. Even back then I rarely lost against it. Imo roaches are a bit useless, they get shredded by the immortals and pushed out of range by the FF. Gas is better spent into more infestors. Against the variant that hits earlier but with less stuff lings alone don't cut it since infestors will be slightly too late, spines are important. Just rush in with the lings, when he FF go back and let the spines hack away while he can't advance because of his own FF. +1 melee should kick in soon enough if he stays and commits to much, and by that time you'll also have infestors. | ||
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