EPTIt's mostly about broodlings and infested terrans, roaches don't matter.
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 401
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
It's mostly about broodlings and infested terrans, roaches don't matter. | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On October 08 2012 14:53 guitarizt wrote: I have a good game zvp that shows how my zvp games typically go. The start is a bit rough. It's probably fatigue. I was floating the most minerals I have been in a while. P is a top 8 diamond. Resource score was 54.6k to 44k in my favour. I asked him at the end what I did wrong and he said my infestors sucked which is probably the biggest thing. I hate using infestors and infestor and bl control are my weak points. Any tips? Do I need to worry about unit composition or is it really just control right now? http://www.filedropper.com/ohanale11 Game notes: + Show Spoiler + You see the forge at 3min (i.e. FFE), could've just dropped a hatch at your third instead of delaying. you take pretty early gases. macro is pretty off. at 11min you're at 90 supply. 12 min still no lair tech units. boy, if your macro is off, his macro is dead and buried; at 15 min, you're almost double his supply. if you had been keeping tabs on his army, you'd know you can walk in and run him over with 4base roach infestor. instead, his third is going up. 16:30 you blindly run in and get FF'd out. you stick around to the colossus laser light show for no reason. no real damage done. 19min you get crippled by zealot + dt harass. you really need to add spines and spores, at least when you max, if not the moment you suspect dts might be possible (after denying his third, in the case of this game, I would figure he feels behind enough to need dts). and restart hatches the moment they die (natural), and send drones back to mine (third). you're crippling yourself, now. you really need to take your fifth much faster, you need that gas for infestor BL, plus corruptors to deal with the mothership. wow your infestor control is nonexistant. you actually a-moved them with the rest of your army, did not attempt either fungal on stalkers to prevent BL-killing blinks or a neural on the mothership. you really, really need to work on your engagements, both zvt and zvp. you also stopped upgrading. once you hit max, you need to spine up and continue upgrading, and take as many gases as you can, not sit around at the tower. you really just sit there for 3 whole minutes (21-24?). the mass spore thing is just ... not correct. trade out the roaches and lings. don't overmax until your maxed army is the most supply-effective army you can muster. remax faster. do it while you're fighting. that's a big missing piece in your macro game. 26-27 min, you're remaxed and he has no mothership. what are you waiting for? you're really slow at reestablishing your fifth (which should have had spores and spines before it finished because you have overlord speed for easy creep dropping). you're also atrociously behind on upgrades. roaches 1-2. he's 3-1-3. and you have nothing but roaches (you have 3 BLs, no infestors). 27:45 ish, scoot the hell forward with your roaches. it's like you're blind to this, it makes your roaches suck. at least you got rid of a bunch of roaches; next time try going for the fourth (since he's sitting in mid), then splitting a group into the main. 30-31 minutes, ugh. bad infestor control (not terrible like before, but still remarkably bad), no spine wall, bad upgrades (3 melee 1 missile 2 armor), no reinforcements. poor coordination. Anaysis: Some general macro weakness in early-midgame, try to polish it up. Big problem: you don't reinforce. I saw it in your zvt, seeing it again in you zvp. it's the difference between cleaning up his army, and 2-3 colossi escaping. Second big problem: you suddenly stopped upgrading, in spite of having 2k/2k at times. Makes a world of difference when you're going max v max. It feels like you don't understand late game zvp. please, go watch stephano's zvp, pretty much any zvp on daybreak even. watch carefully, study what they do and try to see why they do it. BLs and infestors are best buddies, always; there's some kind of ground force to help power through stalkers if they blink forward. You can pre-emptively use ITs to screen out stalkers, or count on fungals to lock them down. count their bases, check their drone saturation if you can get a replay (e.g. MLG packs, GM replay packs in SC2 general). they have queens with their BLs, too. The BL-infestor duo saunters up to the fourth (e.g. daybreak front fourth, ohana side fourth, entombed 12 or 6 o'clock fourth) and just wears its way through, because broodlings are amazing. Also, I suggest watching games and just paying attention to infestor control. Watch the hotkeys (or check replays), infestors are always separate. Watch JUST infestors, track them through whole battles. They only jump in for a fungal, then they're back out; they dump ITs and run. Hell, go watch Dark play any matchup, he is an infestor incarnate, and I've never seen infestor use (abuse?) quite like his. Hope this helps. I may not have time to look at your zvz, though I will suggest you post a zvz loss instead. | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
I watched stephano vs huk on daybreak and I started to get the reinforcement thing. The first battle stephano lost all his units, but he rallied roaches and easily cleaned everything up. I'll try to check out dark's infestor control. Hopefully he has some reps out there showcasing it. For now I'm just going to spam IFs since that seems like a safe way for me not to suicide them forward. I just watched a nerchio vs bratok series today. I liked nerchio's style a lot, but it seems tricky having the right unit comp and control. Still it's probably infinitely easier than the random stuff I'm doing now. The only thing is game 3 on ohana nerchio threw down a roach warren, and I'm not sure how he knew bratok was going for blue flame. Should I just assume bf or two port banshee whenever I drone scout fast gas? OV sac at 6m probably helps a lot to make sure on ladder. The last game I watched was symbol vs taeja on metal. That was my favorite style of game and what I would feel by far the most comfortable doing even though symbol lost. He opened two base four queen no gas, slowly took his third, and went muta ling bane. I'm not sure if it's outdated now. I really miss playing on metal too. It was my fav map. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On October 09 2012 14:58 guitarizt wrote: Thanks again 6x. I'm starting to understand the areas where I need to improve. I feel like I have some clear paths to improve and this will save me a ton of time beating my head against the wall. As long as I get the games in I'm sure I'll be better at keeping up with upgrades, macro, and reinforcing. The only thing I'm a bit tentative about is still unit control since I have a hard time comprehending that for some reason. I'll have to focus even harder on that, and I think that will have to come from analyzing some reps. I watched stephano vs huk on daybreak and I started to get the reinforcement thing. The first battle stephano lost all his units, but he rallied roaches and easily cleaned everything up. I'll try to check out dark's infestor control. Hopefully he has some reps out there showcasing it. For now I'm just going to spam IFs since that seems like a safe way for me not to suicide them forward. I just watched a nerchio vs bratok series today. I liked nerchio's style a lot, but it seems tricky having the right unit comp and control. Still it's probably infinitely easier than the random stuff I'm doing now. The only thing is game 3 on ohana nerchio threw down a roach warren, and I'm not sure how he knew bratok was going for blue flame. Should I just assume bf or two port banshee whenever I drone scout fast gas? OV sac at 6m probably helps a lot to make sure on ladder. The last game I watched was symbol vs taeja on metal. That was my favorite style of game and what I would feel by far the most comfortable doing even though symbol lost. He opened two base four queen no gas, slowly took his third, and went muta ling bane. I'm not sure if it's outdated now. I really miss playing on metal too. It was my fav map. The unit control thing, just stutter step your roaches closer. Just play against a very easy AI, max on roach, then try to kill his base as quickly as you can. You'll notice that with anything more than 10ish roaches, you need the front ones to be in melee range, or else they're blocking a row or two of their buddies. Infestors, just keep them on a separate hotkey, force yourself to. It'll suck for 5-10 games, then it'll become natural. Oh and the moment you start losing, instead of tossing out ITs, just retreat. Save the energy for your when your reinforcements arrive (hopefully very soon, given that I've yelled at you twice about it). Often I just "feel" like terran is going mech, so I add a roach warren. Not seeing more than 3-4 marines, seeing more than 4 hellions, taking both natural gases super early, there're a lot of circumstantial cues that by themselves mean little, but two or three together should make you uncomfortable enough to at least drop the roach warren. it costs no gas, anyway, so it's not a big investment. I really don't think speedling+queen is a good way to fight hellions because of the tendency for terrans to add banshees--you need to be able to shut down hellions cold without relying on queens, because if banshees and hellions hit two different places and you don't have enough queens to hold both spots, bad things happen. Be safe, get the roach warren. Nerchio is a good player to watch for late game BL and infestor, and especially for his spine wall + fungal defense against protoss (he is perhaps better than stephano at it, at least at times). He adds corruptors, too, so that the colossi can't just sit out of range and batter through. The key thing to do is watch his timings (which are based on what his opponent is doing), he has solid transitions that get him safely to BL-infestor. At given points, check what he has relative to his opponent, and get a feel for how/when/why he adds infestors, then spines, then BLs. This is mostly ZvP actually, I haven't seen much of his zvt. Dark adds infestors constantly, tends not to lose them, and often kills people just spamming out ITs; partially it's good to watch because it really demonstrates the power of infestors. He's changed the way I play ZvZ, actually. But he controls them well in all matchups. Muta ling bane is not really outdated, it just doesn't work well on certain maps. Mainly maps with chokes (where fungal is king; e.g. Cloud, Daybreak) and overly large maps (e.g. metropolis, where you want to macro up and want an infestor defense). Gasless openings into fast third are the standard these days, however, because it keeps up with 1rax FE variants while still being safe enough against most 2-base Terran timings/all-ins. Try it out, that's what I suggest. I would warn you specifically, though, that you'll need to learn infestor play regardless of whether you play zvt midgame as muta ling bane or ling infestor. | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
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Aelendis
Belgium892 Posts
On October 09 2012 17:25 guitarizt wrote: Gasless opening zvt feels so good to me. I hate the 15 hatch 16 pool 17 gas for ling speed. I feel so behind in econ, and it's probably not the best to do if they rax expo anyways right? Why do people go fast gas? I always pull off gas after 100, but when do I put them back on again? I have no idea about the timings with fast gas. It's so much easier for me to go gasless into ~32 drones and then take all four gas. Well, if you like gasless openings, just do gasless opening with 4 to 6 queens and quadruple gas near 44 food. Also, you say that people go for fast gas, but unless if I totally missed, i feel the metagame right now is still queens opening. However, people seems to rather make 4 queens and take double gas at more or less 32 food. | ||
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Tribuno
Italy261 Posts
On October 09 2012 05:16 bretfart wrote: Hi, I am high level Diamond player and have a question: I am using Dimagas ling/bling/drop style against toss because 1. They dont exepct it and build Stalker immortal blindly 2. I like that style. Lately I'm only getting master league opponents and I've troubles transitioning out of this style. Lets say I'm on three bases, defend the toss' push at around 10-12 minutes. toss takes 3rd, i Take 4th. but i only have ling / bling. I add infestation pit, start missile upgrade and hive tech asap, but if he goes templer/archon and attacks before broods I am pretty much lost because ling/bling doesnt do shit against this combo. How do I transition out of this probably? Any advice? hi, i am just low master player but if u go for a macro game, that is exactly the scariest moment of the game.. but i think u have two choices and both of them are good: 1. you can take your fourth and get a good amount of drones with 8 gasses building infestation pit, glands and hive asap. Start your spire when u start the hive. then u spend all of your gas on infestors (i want like 10 of them gradually) and u have to build a lot of spines.. but when i say a lot.. i mean really like 20 spines. I have found mass spines + infestor + ling/bane can deflect pretty much everything.. infested terran are really important as well. With this "turtle" u can build corruptors and waiting for greater spire to build broodlords. I like a second spire con upgrades and to build a second greter spire in case the first would be sniped. 2. you can skip spines and go for 4-5 ultras that really hepl vs forcefield and everything execpt immortal Obviously infestor are so important also with this style. U can deflect the toss push and transition into BL. I am not very familiar with this but i saw Symbol (gsl code s player) playing this and also u can find a topic in the strategy forum. good luck! | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On October 09 2012 20:54 Tribuno wrote: hi, i am just low master player but if u go for a macro game, that is exactly the scariest moment of the game.. but i think u have two choices and both of them are good: 1. you can take your fourth and get a good amount of drones with 8 gasses building infestation pit, glands and hive asap. Start your spire when u start the hive. then u spend all of your gas on infestors (i want like 10 of them gradually) and u have to build a lot of spines.. but when i say a lot.. i mean really like 20 spines. I have found mass spines + infestor + ling/bane can deflect pretty much everything.. infested terran are really important as well. With this "turtle" u can build corruptors and waiting for greater spire to build broodlords. I like a second spire con upgrades and to build a second greter spire in case the first would be sniped. 2. you can skip spines and go for 4-5 ultras that really hepl vs forcefield and everything execpt immortal Obviously infestor are so important also with this style. U can deflect the toss push and transition into BL. I am not very familiar with this but i saw Symbol (gsl code s player) playing this and also u can find a topic in the strategy forum. good luck! Ultras are good yeah Another way to have BL in times is to multi drop in protoss bases when the protoss starts to go out. This way you have enough BL when his army comes. | ||
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Alex)
Scotland263 Posts
On October 09 2012 17:25 guitarizt wrote: Gasless opening zvt feels so good to me. I hate the 15 hatch 16 pool 17 gas for ling speed. I feel so behind in econ, and it's probably not the best to do if they rax expo anyways right? Why do people go fast gas? I always pull off gas after 100, but when do I put them back on again? I have no idea about the timings with fast gas. It's so much easier for me to go gasless into ~32 drones and then take all four gas. You should try 15 hatch, 17 pool, 16 gas then build 3 drones to 18/18 then an overlord. I do it and I dont feel like my eco is bebide. I just love quick speed to deal with all ins and the gas is there if you need to go banes because you scout some stupid crazy all in. | ||
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ManicMarine
Australia409 Posts
If I do a 14drone scout and see the terran going CC first, what is the best way to respond? Should I get greedy myself, or try to break it? If greedy, then how greedy? I'm finding it tough to deal with all the options that terran has after taking a CC first. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On October 09 2012 17:25 guitarizt wrote: Gasless opening zvt feels so good to me. I hate the 15 hatch 16 pool 17 gas for ling speed. I feel so behind in econ, and it's probably not the best to do if they rax expo anyways right? Why do people go fast gas? I always pull off gas after 100, but when do I put them back on again? I have no idea about the timings with fast gas. It's so much easier for me to go gasless into ~32 drones and then take all four gas. 15h/16p/17g isn't actually used that much in zvt. You will more commonly see the first gas at 23 or 24 supply. Sub 20 supply gas is often used if the Zerg is cheesing (6min roaches or kyrix style baneling busts). When you get your gas at 23 or 24 you can just keep drones mining gas. A lot of times the goal is speedlings and a third base, but you could easily do a DRG style roach ling bane timing as well. | ||
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loginn
France815 Posts
On October 09 2012 22:30 ManicMarine wrote: Hi I'm a masters terran player who's been playing a lot of zerg lately. I can execute builds decently enough, and I've gotten good at holding allins, but I'm finding it hard respond when terrans go for greedy play. If I do a 14drone scout and see the terran going CC first, what is the best way to respond? Should I get greedy myself, or try to break it? If greedy, then how greedy? I'm finding it tough to deal with all the options that terran has after taking a CC first. If you see a CC first, usually the way to go is to build a fast 3rd hatch, if scouted early enough you can even go 3 hatch before pool. Breaking a CC first terran can be quite hard to do, cause they'll usually have enough bunkers to hold whatever you'll throw at them. If you really want to break it, a roach ling bane attack is probably the best thing to do. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On October 09 2012 22:30 ManicMarine wrote: Hi I'm a masters terran player who's been playing a lot of zerg lately. I can execute builds decently enough, and I've gotten good at holding allins, but I'm finding it hard respond when terrans go for greedy play. If I do a 14drone scout and see the terran going CC first, what is the best way to respond? Should I get greedy myself, or try to break it? If greedy, then how greedy? I'm finding it tough to deal with all the options that terran has after taking a CC first. This is somewhat a matter of taste, and it depends how greedy your opponent is being, and the map. A lot of times I will prefer to try to bust a CC first, since this just seems really greedy to me. To do so, try to deny scouting with a couple of lings/queen, make sure your nat has decent saturation, and try to scout him. If he is going anything but mass rax to open, an early bane bust will most likely work, if you open gas early. Something like 15h/16p/16g, drone until pool finishes, ling speed, then at 50 gas bane nest. Go all lings from 2 hatches, banes outside his base and go for it. Quick tip: if he has a standard depot/rax/depot wall, aim 5-6 banes at his rax. This will blow up both depots. I'm sure there're other builds, but this one is pretty simple and has worked for me. Also, if you open 14p/14g for some reason, just go allin with speedlings and it's a pretty easy win. I wouldn't normally recommend this though as you'll end up behind economically assuming he doesn't go CC-first. You can do something like 9 drone scout to decide how to open, but once again probably not worth it due to the eco hit. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
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AndySCWilson
43 Posts
Normally I drone scout to the side and if they're there I just cheese hitting some roach/ling/bane timing around 830 or so. But if they wall their front off with rax this is basically impossible. Then they can hit any 2-base timing they want and kill your third. Additionally they can easily take a third, then take the 4th that's between your spawns and turn it into a planetary... What to do  | ||
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lodeet
United States147 Posts
On October 10 2012 09:10 AndySCWilson wrote: ZVT Entombed Valley, Imba spawns (ie they're to your side). Normally I drone scout to the side and if they're there I just cheese hitting some roach/ling/bane timing around 830 or so. But if they wall their front off with rax this is basically impossible. Then they can hit any 2-base timing they want and kill your third. Additionally they can easily take a third, then take the 4th that's between your spawns and turn it into a planetary... What to do Veto map. I don't know what advice you're expecting if you fail a 2 base allin and think you can recover. Terrans can rax wall off on practically any map and this is not nearly as bad as shakuras where they can siege tanks on the ridges in the middle of the map denying forward expos and just overall extremely hard to play against. You can still take a fast third and have good ol spread between bases for drops then expand downward and block the middle expo with creep. Certain maps and spawns are disadvantageous for zerg while others not so much, it might be harder to play but i really dont think the terran has an overwhelming advantage. | ||
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AndySCWilson
43 Posts
Where do you take your 4th? Do you break down the rocks at the middle base? Around what time? How long do you fight them 3base-v-3base when they have such a short reinforcement path? | ||
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
On October 10 2012 09:10 AndySCWilson wrote: ZVT Entombed Valley, Imba spawns (ie they're to your side). Normally I drone scout to the side and if they're there I just cheese hitting some roach/ling/bane timing around 830 or so. But if they wall their front off with rax this is basically impossible. Then they can hit any 2-base timing they want and kill your third. Additionally they can easily take a third, then take the 4th that's between your spawns and turn it into a planetary... What to do Well you're going to have to play a fast-paced game at Tier 2. I recommend just going 2-base Mutalisk and taking a third at the middle then getting burrow banelings asap along the trails to your main base. Pretty much shuts down Hellion+Banshee since you're not going to be spreading much creep anyway, and can catch Terrans off guard with a big bane bomb. Or just veto the map, close vs Protoss sucks as well . 2-base colossus push is painful. | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
On October 10 2012 09:10 AndySCWilson wrote: ZVT Entombed Valley, Imba spawns (ie they're to your side). Normally I drone scout to the side and if they're there I just cheese hitting some roach/ling/bane timing around 830 or so. But if they wall their front off with rax this is basically impossible. Then they can hit any 2-base timing they want and kill your third. Additionally they can easily take a third, then take the 4th that's between your spawns and turn it into a planetary... What to do Easy answer: veto map. | ||
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