EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 195
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Tribuno
Italy261 Posts
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On February 28 2012 05:22 Tribuno wrote: i can't win a ZvZ i think i have 20% win while the other 2 matchup i have maybe 70%, i m top 8 diamond but really can't do better because of my awful ZvZ. I open 14/14,scout, exp 21 and generally baneling into roach. But i don't know, i think i m too scared maybe, i don't drones enough and i get outmacroed in every roach vs roach.. but in the other match up my macro is ok! some suggestion? timing push? i don0't know.. every suggest is really well accepted.. ZvZ is just a hard match up, I think it's the most demanding match up in the game at higher levels. You either know what's going on or you don't, and that's really scary as Zerg, even versus other Zergs. The early game ling bane wars are a nightmare for people like me playing cross country with a delay, and Lair timings, Infestor timings, Hive timings are all just random and ridiculous, especially at lower levels like my own. I played a set of ZvZs with a fellow diamond player that I had BMed for doing stupid all ins with no intel whatsoever, and he told me he'd beat me in ZvZ every time. Which he did, by just coin flipping every single time. He would do a massive 2 base roach ling all in that hit right when my mutas popped without having any idea I was going muta AND I wasn't even doing the mass spine defense that gives away muta, I had SHOWN him defensive roaches. Yet he did it anyway and just hit the timing. Then the next game I tried an all in to take advantage of his greedy hatch first, but he had really good micro and I can't micro banelings too well on my connection. Last game, long macro ZvZ, I have the advantage after killing off his army and have 8 infestors out and he has none, only to find he has 8 broodlords. Yes, I should be overseer scouting his main for Hive, but I just didn't think it would make sense for a player to risk BLs like that after we had gone through such an intense roach war for 20 or so minutes constantly attacking and re-attacking. IF I had attacked him right after I killed his army, I had 54 roaches to 34 and 8 infestors to none, but I assumed he'd be reinforcing, so I was going to wait for my 2/2 to finish then go attack. He just randomly decided to go Broods and won. So to be honest, I really don't get ZvZ that much, but the advice I can give is to scout as much as possible without saccing too many units. Early game, it's okay to lose 5-7 lings if it means you get a scout of his main or his natural drone saturation. Don't just move command them into his main, micro them around the back of his nat, see if you can pick off a drone or two, scout scout scout. Even as I say that, I know I'm more of talking to myself because I don't scout nearly enough... t.t | ||
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yakitate304
United States655 Posts
On February 28 2012 05:22 Tribuno wrote: i can't win a ZvZ i think i have 20% win while the other 2 matchup i have maybe 70%, i m top 8 diamond but really can't do better because of my awful ZvZ. I open 14/14,scout, exp 21 and generally baneling into roach. But i don't know, i think i m too scared maybe, i don't drones enough and i get outmacroed in every roach vs roach.. but in the other match up my macro is ok! some suggestion? timing push? i don0't know.. every suggest is really well accepted.. ZvZ is an interesting matchup from a mental standpoint because it goes against the "defend with as little as possible" mantra that the other two Zerg matchups have. In my opinion, the best way to play ZvZ is with a much higher level of aggression than ZvT or ZvP. The build that I tend to open with in ZvZ is... 13gas (2 drones in gas, pull when you have 100 for Speed), 13 pool, 15 Hatch, 18 Speed, 18 OV, 20 Queen, and then pump Lings and apply pressure. *I'm trying to refine it a little bit because at times it can be awkward with the Speed/Queen timing* -If he also does a 2Hatch Speedling build you match him and can determine for yourself whether you want to Ling up or throw down a defensive Baneling nest and drone up while keeping your previous Lings alive -If he goes for a Roach expand you can generally whittle away at his Roaches and either breach the main, or take out his Natural, or both depending on how well he uses his Roaches and Queen -If he goes for a Ling/Bane all-in you have the the ability to throw down a well-placed Spine at your natural, and put your Queen in your ramp to negate most of his Banes, and then clean up the rest with your superior Ling count. From there, based on how many Lings you have, you can often deny his expansion while droning yourself and moving on to Roach or even a fast Lair tech. -If he plays greedily you just win outright Keep in mind that I'm only a high platinum player, but this style opening brought my ZvZ from a 30% winrate to about 70%. It's not reliant on winning the game with the first big push, but is capable of doing so. With superior Ling count, you can drone freely and generally get a fast third base as well. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
(edit: Posting hat a typo, I meant 14G, not 14H) | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On February 28 2012 06:15 [F_]aths wrote: How can I punish a 15 hatch in ZvZ when I open 14H14P? baneling all in. very fast muta. | ||
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yoona2012
Denmark196 Posts
On February 28 2012 06:15 [F_]aths wrote: How can I punish a 15 hatch in ZvZ when I open 14H14P? Uhm. if you went 14 hatch, 14 pool and scout he goes 15 hatch and then 14/15/16 pool, you´re basically on even footing and theres nothing to punish xD | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On February 28 2012 06:23 yoona2012 wrote: Uhm. if you went 14 hatch, 14 pool and scout he goes 15 hatch and then 14/15/16 pool, you´re basically on even footing and theres nothing to punish xD Yeah I think it's safe to say he meant 14G14P. In which case the theoretical answer is: you can't. Try to put on fake pressure since you have speed first and hope he overreacts. 15hatch should beat 14/14 every time. But you can always baneling all in or fast muta, as stated above. On February 28 2012 06:39 KimJongChill wrote: it turns out that thor/tank/bfh is really good against broodlords It's really not. You just need a decent number, and don't have them stacked. | ||
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Grayboosh
United States68 Posts
My real question is, What do I do with my minerals once my 2nd hatch pops? I typically get meta boost, and pull 2 drones off gas, then build my first queen at the expo. I'm wondering if I should build a spine first, instead of a queen, because maybe I already have two much larvae at the moment? And that might help more against an early bane bust? | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On February 28 2012 06:41 Grayboosh wrote: In ZvZ, I go for a 15 hatch, 15 gas, 14 pool. First of all, is this pretty standard? Should I be doing a different variation of 15 hatch? If so, why? My real question is, What do I do with my minerals once my 2nd hatch pops? I typically get meta boost, and pull 2 drones off gas, then build my first queen at the expo. I'm wondering if I should build a spine first, instead of a queen, because maybe I already have two much larvae at the moment? And that might help more against an early bane bust? It's all preference. If you're getting both queens the moment your pool finishes you cant really afford all the larva so get 1 inject and 1 tumor. I prefer to get a spine with 2nd queen slightly delayed. I also prefer to keep 1 drone in gas, once I get 50 I add a second drone in gas and start my bane nest. Any scary all in will hit just before banelings, so make sure you see it coming so you can put your queens on the ramp and start a 2nd spine if needed. As for specific building timings.. 15/15/14 is the safest of FE builds ZvZ, if you get to scout him early and hes also 15 hatching you want to go 15/17/16 (in my opinion). If you scout a 14/14 expo I would go somewhere inbetween like 15/16/15. The differences aren't as big as they seem except for the super high levels, play for safety early rather than tiny edges unless you're mid/high masters. | ||
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Advocado
Denmark994 Posts
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rustypipe
Canada206 Posts
On February 28 2012 06:15 [F_]aths wrote: How can I punish a 15 hatch in ZvZ when I open 14H14P? You don't really need to punish him for it, you just need to prevent him from mineing from it till your expansion gets up then its back to even grounds. or You can bane bust him with an all in and try to snipe the hatch at the nat. | ||
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Kambing
United States1176 Posts
On February 28 2012 06:48 Advocado wrote: Does anyone know how Dong Rae Gu handles his injects and Queens? One hotkey per hatch. Double click hotkey, box queen, inject, repeat. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On February 28 2012 06:40 Clarity_nl wrote: Yeah I think it's safe to say he meant 14G14P. In which case the theoretical answer is: you can't. Try to put on fake pressure since you have speed first and hope he overreacts. 15hatch should beat 14/14 every time. But you can always baneling all in or fast muta, as stated above. It's really not. You just need a decent number, and don't have them stacked. I dunno, I had at least 8, and they couldn't even dent his army. The tanks/bfh seemed to kill the broodlings really fast, while the thors just wouldnt die. | ||
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
T goes Mech. I get drop tech. T does absolutely nothing literally most of the game...then attacks. I absolutely crush his first army. T continues to attempt to take bases, I deny them to some extent but mech's firepower is absurd so I have to let him have them. I tech to broods. He gets vikings. I get corrupters to kill off vikings (which went surprisingly well, even though he did kill all my broods). I still lose. So, two things: First off, T's are starting to sit around and do nothing for most the game and go for a big ol' end game push. How am I supposed to respond to this passive play? The usual "don't let them do wtfever they want" doesn't seem to work whenever they can immediately respond to it by simply moving a tiny portion of their army to deal with...wtfever I do. Secondly, in the above replay, after I had gged and was kinda upset with how ridiculously strong mech is, I thought, with all those vikings, an ultra tech switch may have worked. But, idk now :/ | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On February 28 2012 06:40 Clarity_nl wrote: 1-base bane without speed?Yeah I think it's safe to say he meant 14G14P. In which case the theoretical answer is: you can't. Try to put on fake pressure since you have speed first and hope he overreacts. 15hatch should beat 14/14 every time. But you can always baneling all in or fast muta, as stated above. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On February 28 2012 06:59 [F_]aths wrote: 1-base bane without speed? That's like the super hardcore version, but yeah it basically depends on if it's a reactionary all in or planned. There's like a 100 all in timings 14/14 against 15 hatch, it's why zvz feels like a coinflip sometimes when you're the 15 hatcher. However my advice would be: If you prefer longer macro games, open 15 hatch and learn how to defend stuff, rather than opening 14/14 and playing from behind. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On February 28 2012 06:55 Amaterasu1234 wrote: http://drop.sc/122323 T goes Mech. I get drop tech. T does absolutely nothing literally most of the game...then attacks. I absolutely crush his first army. T continues to attempt to take bases, I deny them to some extent but mech's firepower is absurd so I have to let him have them. I tech to broods. He gets vikings. I get corrupters to kill off vikings (which went surprisingly well, even though he did kill all my broods). I still lose. So, two things: First off, T's are starting to sit around and do nothing for most the game and go for a big ol' end game push. How am I supposed to respond to this passive play? The usual "don't let them do wtfever they want" doesn't seem to work whenever they can immediately respond to it by simply moving a tiny portion of their army to deal with...wtfever I do. Secondly, in the above replay, after I had gged and was kinda upset with how ridiculously strong mech is, I thought, with all those vikings, an ultra tech switch may have worked. But, idk now :/ Watching now. Okay, your drop tech finishes at 13:20 ish, and you never drop. WHY? What is the point of getting drop tech if you're never going to use it until...never? 17 mins in not a single amount of harassment on him. You're letting mech get free 3/3 upgrads and 3rd base. Now he has free 4th base and still not a single drop. You get 3/3 upgrades for Roaches which isn't going to do anything for you once you go BL infestor. You still have a bunch of OLs with Roaches and no drops, now going full BL infestor with NP. You sac a bunch of roaches after killing his first army (instead of dropping his main to kill tech and force him to funnel units into his main) and then you remax... ON MORE ROACHES? WTF Why are you making more roaches? You ahve the bank to go BL infestor Corruptor, and you are going some weird Roach Muta Corruptor wtf? Okay, I LOVED your whole midgame. Your injects were flowing nicely, you wer well upgraded drop tech. Then you never dropped. The only time you used drops was to engage his tank lines (which was a very nice move, but useless at that point) and you let him get 4 bases and 14 thors, tanks, and a bunch of vikings fully upgraded. And you're trying to beat that with Muta/Corruptor/Roach? Why did you spend money on 3/3 upgrades for Spire if you're only going to make Corruptors and about 4 Broods the whole game? Why are you not making Infestors when you are banking a ton of gas, know he has a high Viking count, and you researched NP? tldr - Your mechanics are good, your decisions made no sense. The moment drop tech finishes you should be dropping his main. Then run the rest of your roaches into his natural, or his third (which should just be landing). Then once he cleans up drop in main, you should have already double expanded and threw down infestation pit. You do not need 3/3 roach upgrades unless you plan on going roach drop infestor the entire game. I don't know why you neglected the best zerg composition in the game. | ||
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
so i want to know was my drone count good and what should i do when i see a 1baseing toss trying to make a push with sentries + immortals? | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On February 28 2012 09:01 archonOOid wrote: i'v lost a a game vs a 1 baseing protoss. he opened up with warp prism trying drop in main but did zero damage and after that pushed with 4 immortals + sentries and crushed me. my strategy when i saw 1base + immoral drop was to build 3 (gas) + 16 (main) + 8 (natural) drones and then pump out roaches and zerglings but i failed. so i want to know was my drone count good and what should i do when i see a 1baseing toss trying to make a push with sentries + immortals? oh yeah, the immortal drop into one base sentry Immortal thing. Uh you need Roach/Ling/Queen and engage at your spines. You can also go Ling Hydra, but again engage only with spines. You should not take any damage from the WP harass (OL spread and 3 queens + a few lings, and should be able to get 2 bases fully saturated and ling hydra out in time for the 11 min attack. I think you can even rush to Infestors, that seems like a sick counter. Fungal on the sentries and lings clean up everything else. | ||
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