The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 196

On February 28 2012 06:59 [F_]aths wrote:
1-base bane without speed?

On February 28 2012 09:12 Flonomenalz wrote:

oh yeah, the immortal drop into one base sentry Immortal thing.

Uh you need Roach/Ling/Queen and engage at your spines. You can also go Ling Hydra, but again engage only with spines. You should not take any damage from the WP harass (OL spread and 3 queens + a few lings, and should be able to get 2 bases fully saturated and ling hydra out in time for the 11 min attack. I think you can even rush to Infestors, that seems like a sick counter. Fungal on the sentries and lings clean up everything else.

On February 28 2012 06:55 Amaterasu1234 wrote:
http://drop.sc/122323

T goes Mech. I get drop tech.

T does absolutely nothing literally most of the game...then attacks. I absolutely crush his first army. T continues to attempt to take bases, I deny them to some extent but mech's firepower is absurd so I have to let him have them. I tech to broods. He gets vikings. I get corrupters to kill off vikings (which went surprisingly well, even though he did kill all my broods).

I still lose.

So, two things:

First off, T's are starting to sit around and do nothing for most the game and go for a big ol' end game push. How am I supposed to respond to this passive play? The usual "don't let them do wtfever they want" doesn't seem to work whenever they can immediately respond to it by simply moving a tiny portion of their army to deal with...wtfever I do.

Secondly, in the above replay, after I had gged and was kinda upset with how ridiculously strong mech is, I thought, with all those vikings, an ultra tech switch may have worked. But, idk now :/

On February 28 2012 20:56 HyperionDreamer wrote:
I just hate this whole attitude of "you can't let p/t get to 200/200 or you just lose" like what the fuck is that? You never heard anyone in brood war saying "if terran hits max its gg," people thought up smart ways to play conservative macro games in all situations, and I'm of the belief that there exists a way to play macro games vs toss and terran, I just have no idea what the fuck it is. 200/200 toss is almost unkillable and maxed terran on mech can be even worse, it's not like stalkers have 9 range against broods like thors do. People need to start talking about HOW to beat those late game compositions rather than saying "oh if he gets there it's over," and moving on to the next game.

I've been trying to do mad harass to keep protoss down on food and probes, but toss just makes 8 cannons at each base and your mutas/infestors/bane drops don't do shit all. I just do not get how you can actually play a legitimate game against a good toss right now, especially considering the only macro map has one of the most protoss slanted spawn setups every (TDA - no good third for zerg that isn't easy to 6 gate and kill). Stuff like cloud kingdom is decent in the early and midgame, but it almost seems to me like the map makers don't think over the actual setup of the map past 15 minutes (sometimes for blizzard not past 5 minutes). Antigua is the best example of this - the layout of the first 3 bases is pretty good but where is your fourth? Either take another main which has a shorter path to attack from the centre than defend, or take a side fourth that also has a shorter path to attack it. Playing vs t on that map is just absurd when they siege in the middle and go to town on 3 of your bases at once with no risk of losing the middle. Entombed is just "i heard toss has this thing called forcefield lets put the smallest ramps for them to defend", TDA is meh as before.... If you can get past the first 15 minutes it becomes by far the best map.

Can we please just take these shit shit blizzard maps out of the rotation and transplant all the GSL maps in? Daybreak is a fantastic example of a well thought out map imo. They have a good layout for the first 3 bases, some destructible terrain in the middle that you can open up to attack late game, and fourth/fifth bases that aren't fucking impossible to defend, and are closer to your enemy's base than yours, and no rocks blocking your expansions. Even dual sight (i'm not a fan of it compared to the gsl version of TDA and daybreak and metropolis) is better than every single blizzard sc2 map.

question with regards to lategame infestor/brood vs protoss: If I ever get there (protoss at my level is so allin I rarely do), I find that I can only get like 2-5 broods to actually fit in the 200 food cap, since I need to keep some corruptors to attempt to kill collosus before 6 of them instagib 50 food of roaches in 2 seconds. Since I'm not ending up with a huge huge brood force, they're relatively weak because of blink/voidrays/etc. How do you manage to get a reasonable number of broods out without dying because you're artificially keepng yourself on 160/200?

On February 29 2012 04:53 Kraelog wrote:
@Hyperion


You can certainly play long macro games against terran and protoss on most maps (I agree Antique is total crap), but instead on focusing on doing harass to keep their food count low, I believe it is more important to restrict their choices for the late game maxed army composition.

In the case of Protoss, in an ideal scenario he will have a momaship, 8 max energy sentry's, 5 Collosi, 5 templar with maxed energy, 2 immortals, 3 archons and some gateway stuff sprinkled on top. As zerg it is Freaking impossible to win when Toss has his perfect BBQ Death Ball. So I feel you should be attacking consistently and trading mineral units for gas units in order to limit the toss which units he can make. The Ret VOD covered by Day9 is a good example.

In the case of Terran, with Bio its all about limiting the tank count and not dying to harass. With Mech its limiting the amount of gas the Terran can have.

On February 29 2012 05:19 Vandrad wrote:
My biggest problems right now are something I would call "abusive all-ins".
I don't have this problem vs Protoss because Im going 14 pool so cannon rush won't do anything ...

But in ZvZ I have no answer to 6/7 pool with pulled drones. I know you can do the mineral stacking trick but I actually think this doesn't really work as I'm losing still too many drones.

In TvZ it's even worse. So the terran 2-raxes but this isn't the problem. The problem is that he builds 2 bunkers at your ramp.
How should I break this with marines behind it and SCV's repairing it?

On February 29 2012 07:17 Kraelog wrote:


Never ever let him build bunkers at your ramp. The moment you see its 2rax patrol a drone at your ramp. Once u are walled in your expo is dead and it's gg.

On February 28 2012 20:56 HyperionDreamer wrote:
I just hate this whole attitude of "you can't let p/t get to 200/200 or you just lose" like what the fuck is that? You never heard anyone in brood war saying "if terran hits max its gg," people thought up smart ways to play conservative macro games in all situations, and I'm of the belief that there exists a way to play macro games vs toss and terran, I just have no idea what the fuck it is. 200/200 toss is almost unkillable and maxed terran on mech can be even worse, it's not like stalkers have 9 range against broods like thors do. People need to start talking about HOW to beat those late game compositions rather than saying "oh if he gets there it's over," and moving on to the next game.

I've been trying to do mad harass to keep protoss down on food and probes, but toss just makes 8 cannons at each base and your mutas/infestors/bane drops don't do shit all. I just do not get how you can actually play a legitimate game against a good toss right now, especially considering the only macro map has one of the most protoss slanted spawn setups every (TDA - no good third for zerg that isn't easy to 6 gate and kill). Stuff like cloud kingdom is decent in the early and midgame, but it almost seems to me like the map makers don't think over the actual setup of the map past 15 minutes (sometimes for blizzard not past 5 minutes). Antigua is the best example of this - the layout of the first 3 bases is pretty good but where is your fourth? Either take another main which has a shorter path to attack from the centre than defend, or take a side fourth that also has a shorter path to attack it. Playing vs t on that map is just absurd when they siege in the middle and go to town on 3 of your bases at once with no risk of losing the middle. Entombed is just "i heard toss has this thing called forcefield lets put the smallest ramps for them to defend", TDA is meh as before.... If you can get past the first 15 minutes it becomes by far the best map.

Can we please just take these shit shit blizzard maps out of the rotation and transplant all the GSL maps in? Daybreak is a fantastic example of a well thought out map imo. They have a good layout for the first 3 bases, some destructible terrain in the middle that you can open up to attack late game, and fourth/fifth bases that aren't fucking impossible to defend, and are closer to your enemy's base than yours, and no rocks blocking your expansions. Even dual sight (i'm not a fan of it compared to the gsl version of TDA and daybreak and metropolis) is better than every single blizzard sc2 map.

question with regards to lategame infestor/brood vs protoss: If I ever get there (protoss at my level is so allin I rarely do), I find that I can only get like 2-5 broods to actually fit in the 200 food cap, since I need to keep some corruptors to attempt to kill collosus before 6 of them instagib 50 food of roaches in 2 seconds. Since I'm not ending up with a huge huge brood force, they're relatively weak because of blink/voidrays/etc. How do you manage to get a reasonable number of broods out without dying because you're artificially keepng yourself on 160/200?

On February 29 2012 11:36 theMarkovian wrote:
Question: Against Hellion openings, when do you take back map control? I don't die to Hellions straight up, don't let them inside my mineral line with Queens, a spine and some zerglings. But I can't really scout untill I have an overwhelming force of Zerglings (enough to surround them, with speed) making me weak to allins, etc. and having difficulty getting my third up.

Do you make enough lings to fight Hellions in the open before saturating both your bases? Do you do it after and immediatly expand to your third? I am too passive, I think. Though I am having fun with bad Terrans that suicide their initial hellions, kill too few zerglings and drones, and then die to a ling counter into their natural.

On February 29 2012 11:36 theMarkovian wrote:
Question: Against Hellion openings, when do you take back map control? I don't die to Hellions straight up, don't let them inside my mineral line with Queens, a spine and some zerglings. But I can't really scout untill I have an overwhelming force of Zerglings (enough to surround them, with speed) making me weak to allins, etc. and having difficulty getting my third up.

Do you make enough lings to fight Hellions in the open before saturating both your bases? Do you do it after and immediatly expand to your third? I am too passive, I think. Though I am having fun with bad Terrans that suicide their initial hellions, kill too few zerglings and drones, and then die to a ling counter into their natural.

On February 29 2012 05:19 Vandrad wrote:
My biggest problems right now are something I would call "abusive all-ins".
I don't have this problem vs Protoss because Im going 14 pool so cannon rush won't do anything ...

But in ZvZ I have no answer to 6/7 pool with pulled drones. I know you can do the mineral stacking trick but I actually think this doesn't really work as I'm losing still too many drones.

In TvZ it's even worse. So the terran 2-raxes but this isn't the problem. The problem is that he builds 2 bunkers at your ramp.
How should I break this with marines behind it and SCV's repairing it?

1-2 Ultras are not going to do anything for you against Muta/Infestor/BL. I cannot see how you can engage efficiently even with just 2-4 BLs out. The BL player does not have to attack ever because if he hits a critical mass of BLs he just wins vs Ultras, so Ultra player has to take the initiative. How do you engage? Mutas have to come forward to hit Broods, which lets them eat fungal. Ultras have to come forward to hit Infestors, which gets murdered by ITs and Broodlings. Plus you still have your own Mutas. I cannot, simply cannot see how Ultra/Muta/Infestor beats BL/Muta/Infestor unless you catch the other player not microing and kill all his infestors before he casts a bunch of IT.

I mean, you know just how badly ITs destroy Ultras, right?

If you want to play later tonight, we can run it in unit tester or something. You go Muta Infestor with 2 Ultras, I'll go Muta Infestor with... 2-4 Broods?

I used to think I knew this.....but what do I upgrade for stronger brood lords?

What do you do on TDA against ffe these days? I find myself losing a third hatchery for free so many times cause of those goddamned rocks at the natural third base. Those need to be removed.

On February 29 2012 22:37 Digitalis wrote:
What is the "perfect" zerg army, well not really the perfect just the one that everyone should work towards.
It was like broodlord infestor..... and something else?

On February 29 2012 05:08 KimJongChill wrote:
I'm having trouble against turtling terrans atm, but against toss muta zvp is now my standard, since I can contain them well, and even if they can get up to three bases I force them to throw down excessive static d and remake probes constantly. Imo roaches/hydras, and to an extent infestors, are absolutely worthless in zvp as long as protoss is smart about engaging and playing defensively. I've seen that zerg deathballs of pure brood/corrupter/infestor with spines can actually fight head to head with protoss deathballs, but getting to that kind of composition is really hard.