EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 197
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Iridium
Sweden90 Posts
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Falcon-sw
United States324 Posts
On March 01 2012 01:27 Iridium wrote: I just opened 14pool against an FFE and my protoss opponent threw down a pylon behind my natural expansions mineral fields. I saw this with my overlord and immediately sent 4 drones to deny the pylon, however it got up with around 30% hp left (but no shield left), afterwards he threw down 2 cannons and another pylon. Lings weren't there in time and drones couldn't deny the pylon. If I sent more drones I would have been behind in economy if he just skipped throwing down additional structures. What the hell am I supposed to do against this? 11 pool and continually scout your natural. | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On March 01 2012 01:27 Iridium wrote: I just opened 14pool against an FFE and my protoss opponent threw down a pylon behind my natural expansions mineral fields. I saw this with my overlord and immediately sent 4 drones to deny the pylon, however it got up with around 30% hp left (but no shield left), afterwards he threw down 2 cannons and another pylon. Lings weren't there in time and drones couldn't deny the pylon. If I sent more drones I would have been behind in economy if he just skipped throwing down additional structures. What the hell am I supposed to do against this? I always open 15 pool because I think you have to pull a drone at some point regardless 14 or 15. But anyhow, if he builds 1 pylon you should bring 2 drones to go prevent walloffs. 1 pylon is not scary, 2 pylons that walls off a cannon is very scary. So your goal with the 2 drones is not to attack the pylon but to prevent cannon walloffs. If his pylon finishes be ready to pull drones. When he starts building cannons his commitment goes way up and so should yours. Id bring like 5-8 drones. 3 drones kills a cannon if you start attacking the cannon before its at ~30% finished. 4 drones kills a cannon if you start attacking before its ~60% finished. 2 drones attacking a cannon even right when it starts will end up with the cannon finishing and will kill 3-4 drones before it dies to drones. So prevent him walling off cannons so you can get a full 3-4 drones per cannon and make sure you know when your pool is finished. If you have overlord vision of him this will tell you how many lings to make. If you are sure you can get in, make a lot. If you arn't sure or don't think you can then just make 1-2 sets of lings for scout and to finish up the cannons. Continue with your regular game as he delays his buildings a lot by building cannons. If his nexus is really slow thats a big hit to his economy and if his gateway is slow that slows down all his push timings. 8:00 voidray at your base could be 9:00 or 10:00 depending how much he delays it (check his gate timing at high level). | ||
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RaiD.RaynoR
United States294 Posts
On March 01 2012 01:27 Iridium wrote: I just opened 14pool against an FFE and my protoss opponent threw down a pylon behind my natural expansions mineral fields. I saw this with my overlord and immediately sent 4 drones to deny the pylon, however it got up with around 30% hp left (but no shield left), afterwards he threw down 2 cannons and another pylon. Lings weren't there in time and drones couldn't deny the pylon. If I sent more drones I would have been behind in economy if he just skipped throwing down additional structures. What the hell am I supposed to do against this? 14 pool is a bit delayed imo, go for 11 pool or 12 pool next time | ||
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iiGreetings
Canada563 Posts
On March 01 2012 01:27 Iridium wrote: I just opened 14pool against an FFE and my protoss opponent threw down a pylon behind my natural expansions mineral fields. I saw this with my overlord and immediately sent 4 drones to deny the pylon, however it got up with around 30% hp left (but no shield left), afterwards he threw down 2 cannons and another pylon. Lings weren't there in time and drones couldn't deny the pylon. If I sent more drones I would have been behind in economy if he just skipped throwing down additional structures. What the hell am I supposed to do against this? Assuming your first 4 lings are on time, you should be staring at your natural for these types of things with FFE your drones can deny it, and pull more then 4.... this is your natural your defending, i understand you don't want to over commit and lose mining time but like your natural is basically the only way you can win the game. | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On March 01 2012 01:56 RaiD.RaynoR wrote: 14 pool is a bit delayed imo, go for 11 pool or 12 pool next time Bad advice. 14 pool is fine if you do what TheGreenMachine described in his above post. | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On February 29 2012 23:10 Vega62a wrote: Out of curiosity, for you specifically, how do you deal with it using a ZvP ling/muta gameplan if he hits you with a +1, +2, or +1/+1 7 gate allin? (Basically 3/4 of the ZvP I lose are because of this absurdly easymode protoss allin.) In the games I've played, I don't have mutas out before it hits, so he comes in with a wave of 14-ish zealots and then reinforces with stalkers when he sees muta. The only thing I could even consider working is to have a big round of banelings ready. Do you typically have muta out before it hits? (I could be late.) As a followup, for everybody, is there something specific that you scout to indicate it's coming, and switch to a meatier composition early? This question could probably be folded out to ask, if you don't explicitly see 7 gateways, what are some tells that a 7gate +upgrades allin is coming? Think of it logically, if he takes 3rd and 4th gas very early he has fewer probes mining minerals and he pays 75 minerals for each gas. If he never takes 3rd and 4th gas = probably cutting probes early for an attack and will happen quickly since u dont want to stay on 2 gas for a long time in that situation. A delayed 3rd and 4th gas = many gateways or possibly a warp prism harass (robo not much gas, warp prism not much gas, 4 gates not any gas, 2 sentry to go in warp prism not a ton of gas) A quick 3rd gas and delayed or no 4th gas = probably stargate into few sentry gate push or some middle-of-the-road gas build with voidray+stalker or voidray+couple sentry zealot, or somethin like that. The other big thing you can scout is his +attack upgrade at forge An early +1 attack before cyber finishes is a big sign of: -standard 4 gate +1 attack zealot warpin, look for small zealot/stalker pokeout that brings a probe, make sure to clear pylons across the map, get roach warren around 7:00 (or maybe spines if you do ling muta style?) -standard 4 gate +1 attack with 3rd and 4th gas behind it could turn into twilight and +2 into blink allin. -the +1/+1 timing since you want to have the +1 attack started early to get your 1/1 finished by a reasonable time -a fast +2 especially if you scout a twilight, this is typically a +2 attack blink allin or some kind of expand/later game build. -possible +1 6 gate early push (only 2 gas is big sign) Tell me if any of this is wrong, im just trying to think out-loud about it. | ||
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Vega62a
946 Posts
On March 01 2012 02:14 TheGreenMachine wrote: Think of it logically, if he takes 3rd and 4th gas very early he has fewer probes mining minerals and he pays 75 minerals for each gas. If he never takes 3rd and 4th gas = probably cutting probes early for an attack and will happen quickly since u dont want to stay on 2 gas for a long time in that situation. A delayed 3rd and 4th gas = many gateways or possibly a warp prism harass (robo not much gas, warp prism not much gas, 4 gates not any gas, 2 sentry to go in warp prism not a ton of gas) A quick 3rd gas and delayed or no 4th gas = probably stargate into few sentry gate push or some middle-of-the-road gas build with voidray+stalker or voidray+couple sentry zealot, or somethin like that. The other big thing you can scout is his +attack upgrade at forge An early +1 attack before cyber finishes is a big sign of: -standard 4 gate +1 attack zealot warpin, look for small zealot/stalker pokeout that brings a probe, make sure to clear pylons across the map, get roach warren around 7:00 (or maybe spines if you do ling muta style?) -standard 4 gate +1 attack with 3rd and 4th gas behind it could turn into twilight and +2 into blink allin. -the +1/+1 timing since you want to have the +1 attack started early to get your 1/1 finished by a reasonable time -a fast +2 especially if you scout a twilight, this is typically a +2 attack blink allin or some kind of expand/later game build. -possible +1 6 gate early push (only 2 gas is big sign) Tell me if any of this is wrong, im just trying to think out-loud about it. I have a few questions about this - they're scrubby questions, but I'm a scrubby Diamond. What constitutes a quick or delayed 3rd and 4th gas? In terms of a ballpark estimate. I think the second upgrade is the key here - I don't know any protoss who FFEs and then NOT get +1. It's just so worth it for as good as it makes Zealots. I know that a good 7gate allin cuts probes at around 44, but it's hard to tell when to look for the probe cut, since I think it only happens when the warpins start, at which point it's too late. Is the delayed (still need a ballpark for when "Delayed" is) gas really the only reliable sign of this? Or is something like a low sentry count another good indicator? Lately I've been getting a roach warren for safety by about 6-7 minutes every game, regardless of my plan. The extra 150 minerals (same cost as a spine + drone) seems worth it for the option of flooding roaches if he overcommits to zealots for the attack. (It seems like just about any number of spines alone can never hold a +1/1 or +2 allin with a goodly amount of zealots.) Does this seem like correct thinking? Or do I really just need to make sure my spire is up in time? (I know mine often winds up going up at around 10-11 minutes, maybe a bit too late.) On March 01 2012 02:10 VoirDire wrote: Bad advice. 14 pool is fine if you do what TheGreenMachine described in his above post. This. The only reason to go 11 pool is to pressure a greedy protoss who FFEs and then goes nexus before cannon. Just get a 14 or 15 pool and then play correctly. And if he does cannon your nat and you can't block it, just take your 3rd if you're not on a silly map like TDA, and kill the cannons when you're ready to take a 3rd. It'll alter your gameplan but not fatally. | ||
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Werezerg
Germany62 Posts
I have serious problems in ZvP against immortal (+prism) push with ~7gates after ffe. how can i defend this? i saw stephano against elfi game1, elfi used that build and won with it against stephano using mass roaches. roach(+1lings) seems to have no chance against that build (too many forcefields), just if you have a slight advantage and flank him perfectly you might have a chance. i think stephano played it perfectly but got smashed. especially on antiga shipyard you have no chance against the forcefields in the small entrance of your third... the only thing i can think of that might have a chance in a normal game is building a hydra+spire crawler wall. But it´s really hard to defend natural and 3rd with that static defense. furthermore you might have trouble against a switch to collossus. so how do you deal with that push? | ||
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Vega62a
946 Posts
On March 01 2012 02:54 Werezerg wrote: @iridium: another possibility is just placing your hatch at your 3rd. but first you have to confirm that he does fe otherwise you cannot hold against 1base protoss. and send lings to your 3rd fast to avoid another cannon rush there. I have serious problems in ZvP against immortal (+prism) push with ~7gates after ffe. how can i defend this? i saw stephano against elfi game1, elfi used that build and won with it against stephano using mass roaches. roach(+1lings) seems to have no chance against that build (too many forcefields), just if you have a slight advantage and flank him perfectly you might have a chance. i think stephano played it perfectly but got smashed. especially on antiga shipyard you have no chance against the forcefields in the small entrance of your third... the only thing i can think of that might have a chance in a normal game is building a hydra+spire crawler wall. But it´s really hard to defend natural and 3rd with that static defense. furthermore you might have trouble against a switch to collossus. so how do you deal with that push? Edit after Darkforce's reply: This is bad advice (per darkforce's response below) so you shouldn't follow it, but I'm leaving it in the post so it doesn't look like I'm dodging myself. + Show Spoiler + Maybe this is completely off base, but it seems like that push would hit after 3 base muta is rolling, so it seems like if you can stop the pylon from going down (forcing him to walk instead of warp in) and engage in the middle of the map, you should be able to hold that with ling/muta and good upgrades/surrounds. (Baiting FFs /sniping sentries will obviously be crucial.) Also, hydras should hold it if you engage at the spine crawlers. And if you're concerned about colossus follow-up, there's no reason you have to continue to commit to hydras. | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On March 01 2012 03:21 Vega62a wrote: Maybe this is completely off base, but it seems like that push would hit after 3 base muta is rolling, so it seems like if you can stop the pylon from going down (forcing him to walk instead of warp in) and engage in the middle of the map, you should be able to hold that with ling/muta and good upgrades/surrounds. (Baiting FFs /sniping sentries will obviously be crucial.) Also, hydras should hold it if you engage at the spine crawlers. And if you're concerned about colossus follow-up, there's no reason you have to continue to commit to hydras. mutas come pretty late when you are 3 base vs forge fe, and generally mutas are not very good at defending 2 base pushes. so i wouldnt recommend this. against 2 base pushes you usually just need enough roach ling. | ||
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Vega62a
946 Posts
On March 01 2012 03:37 DarKFoRcE wrote: mutas come pretty late when you are 3 base vs forge fe, and generally mutas are not very good at defending 2 base pushes. so i wouldnt recommend this. against 2 base pushes you usually just need enough roach ling. Makes sense. For those of us who struggle with control (like me), will adding some hydras be hugely detrimental to the rest of the game, or is it a decent, if less-than-ideal, way to ensure we hold it? | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On February 29 2012 13:31 Belial88 wrote: The map is broken for ZvP-FFE for the reasons you specified. I just veto the map. An interesting side note, TDA used to have the rocks removed at the GSL, but then they decided to add them. Weird huh? Maybe we just bitch too much, but it does awfully feel like we're restricted in the choices we can make on that map. 2 base muta is okay on that map, though. The choke means any mass gateway push can be held off with spines, and there's just so much air space that your mutas really become more effective than any other map. It really becomes a very good opening that isn't so cheesy as it usually is. If the opponent opens stargate, just add corruptors. It's really not a big deal. It just doesn't seem right to veto the best macro map in the entire pool just cause of the rocks... I guess I'll switch to using 2 base mutas in all of the close positions, cross pos I still think is playable doing 3 hatch early. Also, darkforce, how do you engage gateway/immortal timings at the third on cloud kingdom? I've found myself in ssuperior army situations multiple times but unable to engage because of goddamned forcefields across my third hatchery.... Do I need 4-5 spines to prevent this? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On March 01 2012 04:04 Vega62a wrote: Makes sense. For those of us who struggle with control (like me), will adding some hydras be hugely detrimental to the rest of the game, or is it a decent, if less-than-ideal, way to ensure we hold it? From experience on facing the immortal push on kr I feel roach/ling can't possibly beat it. I don't know i have tried pure roach/ling and if they do that push I have died 100% of the time. The only success I have is when I either go infestors or roach/hydra. Just don't feel you can hold an immortal/sentry/stalker/zealot 2 base all in with just roach/ling FF is to powerful vs that composition and immortals absolutely wreck roaches no matter if you are 1-0/1-1 by the time the toss pushes. | ||
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Vega62a
946 Posts
On March 01 2012 04:55 blade55555 wrote: From experience on facing the immortal push on kr I feel roach/ling can't possibly beat it. I don't know i have tried pure roach/ling and if they do that push I have died 100% of the time. The only success I have is when I either go infestors or roach/hydra. Just don't feel you can hold an immortal/sentry/stalker/zealot 2 base all in with just roach/ling FF is to powerful vs that composition and immortals absolutely wreck roaches no matter if you are 1-0/1-1 by the time the toss pushes. I wonder if that's an issue where you can hold it off at a gain with perfect control, and anything less than perfect control just dies. If that's the case, then holding it off with roach/ling/hydra is probably not at a gain, but you at least don't wind up behind. But I could be wrong in this. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On March 01 2012 05:19 Vega62a wrote: I wonder if that's an issue where you can hold it off at a gain with perfect control, and anything less than perfect control just dies. If that's the case, then holding it off with roach/ling/hydra is probably not at a gain, but you at least don't wind up behind. But I could be wrong in this. I should also say I have never seen a zerg hold it with just roach/ling. I believe I have seen stephano get crushed by it with roach/ling, DRG by it and some other zerg who I want to say is nestea but I don't remember, I just know i have seen stephano/drg and others get crushed when using roach/ling. The perfect control doesn't matter because FF nullifies it. It pretty much goes by if toss uses FF decently or not. I think I saw a zerg beat it with roach/ling once and that was when the toss forgot he had forcefield until to late so I don't count that  | ||
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Roachyy
Canada1 Post
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Vega62a
946 Posts
On March 01 2012 05:23 blade55555 wrote: I should also say I have never seen a zerg hold it with just roach/ling. I believe I have seen stephano get crushed by it with roach/ling, DRG by it and some other zerg who I want to say is nestea but I don't remember, I just know i have seen stephano/drg and others get crushed when using roach/ling. I think I saw a zerg beat it with roach/ling once and that was when the toss forgot he had forcefield until to late so I don't count that Was gonna say, I just saw Slush hold it off on Incontrol's stream with roach/ling, but Inc also completely forgot his forcefields. Hard to say. Seems like it's a chance to outplay / be outplayed, in part. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On March 01 2012 05:23 Roachyy wrote: Hello, long time reader first time poster on teamliquid. I just played a zvz where i opened 14 hatch 14 pool and went up against 14 gas 14 pool into quick banes. Any help what I should do in this case? Here is the replay http://drop.sc/123776 You can do this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583 it hard counters 14/14 baneling all in easily. You could also just replace the roach warren with a baneling nest as well if you prefer ling/bane over roaches. It does have less room for mistakes and one mistake will cost you game. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On March 01 2012 05:26 blade55555 wrote: You can do this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583 it hard counters 14/14 baneling all in easily. You could also just replace the roach warren with a baneling nest as well if you prefer ling/bane over roaches. It does have less room for mistakes and one mistake will cost you game. I think you can only replace the warren with bane nest if you drone scout and see that he takes drones off of gas after his 14/14, which usually means pure speedlings. Going slow ling baneling vs banelings with speedlings is just so, so advantageous to the speed player, and you can't even afford the extra lings your extra hatchery supplies you (iirc), so I feel like you just die. How I've been opening up hatch first is with your warren build, never make a queen first, always warren, and I like, wall off the distance between my bottom ramp and my hatchery with roaches and a spine, and then a queen when I make it after the warren. If he continues to make units, I had a second spine in the mineral line. | ||
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