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On March 01 2012 23:32 Olsson wrote:
Right so terran goes for standard reactor hellion expand. But he goes for like eight hellions instead of stopping at four and just runs inside my base, what can I do to counter this? On maps like metalopolis even if I do get two spines to protect it they can just run up my ramp and fry all my drones for like a 800 mineral investment which isnt much considering it ALWAYS pays off. I have no idea on how to beat this retarded strat. NO. I wont go roaches it delays my mutas to the extent where he can take a free third and skip turrets for a long time meaning my mutas doesnt really do anything.
Hold position queen on your ramp, place some evo chambers to limit movements of helions, on metalopolis I place one evo chamber behind the mineral line, right next to gas geysers and another one betwen ramp and the ramps corner. spines just to be safe, make third queen if you see over 6 helions, hold postion one queen on the ramp, middle of it otherwise it can fail with blocking the helions.
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On March 02 2012 00:37 Maggost wrote:
Hello.
If a protoss is not going FFE and he stays at one base, it is safe for me staying on 2 bases till what minute mark? because i am losing at 1 base timing push because i am droning so much for a third base.
Scouting is most important, move one of your first overlords next to your opponents base and around 6 to 7 minutes send that overlord for suicide scouting mission, you should check sentry count (lot of sentries mean expanding), check how many gateways (possible 4-gate), if you dont see any sentries of very small ammount of sentries and like 3 gateways its most likely dts, so get evo chamber up asap and some spores.
I dont think there is any 1 base protoss push what could beat 2 base zerg who reacts correctly, so obviously your reaction is wrong here. if Protoss havent planted down expansion at 6:50 he is most likely doing some heavy one basing aggression. If I see that protoss havent throwed down expansion at that time, I just make roaches and lings, extra queens and some spines and spore at the front.
Remember roaches are good general units against gateway composiotions, they can kite zealots on creep and zerglings beat stalkers easily. Let him come to you right on range of your spine crawlers instead of you attacking him on some tight choke.
All this doesnt mean you shouldnt drone. Just get like 50 drones for 2 bases and after killing his push or seeing him expanding take third, put some pressure with your army (dont over commit), and drone up and tech.
For futher help pls post a replay.
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On March 02 2012 00:37 Maggost wrote:
Hello.
If a protoss is not going FFE and he stays at one base, it is safe for me staying on 2 bases till what minute mark? because i am losing at 1 base timing push because i am droning so much for a third base.
1Gate Expand drops a Nexus at ~4:45-5:15, 3Gate Expand at ~5:30-6:10. If you don't see a Nexus before 6:00, start worrying about one base pushes. Depending on his amount of gas (count sentries and stalkers) and the time, it can be anything between 4Gate, 2Gas 4Gate, DTs, Voidrays, 3Gate Blink and more weird stuff like Immortal+Gate, which is all beatable on 2 bases, as long as you scout it (roughly) and don't overdrone.
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@looken: 60 drones is too much against hard 7/8 gate push. about 54 drones should be fine, and yes ling roach is fine.
@olsson: place your 3rd queen on the ramp, there is one small spot where 1 queen can block helions from going through. you can slide your eco in your main (through your queen) and with 2 spine at nat you can easily hold it. you definitly dont need (and shouldnt use) roaches against that. a few lings can help too, but just engage if he is cornered/weakend/tries to go up the ramp so he will get caught between lings and queen.
@maggost: never build a 3rd if protoss is still on one base. with 2 base you have a far better economy than him, just prepare for his allin (he can only allin from 1 base... so scout it and prepare). Depending on his allin you cannot afford to build more drones than about 20 (hard 4 gate) - 35 (stargate..).
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also if you are massing up units to stop a 1 base push and hit a certain food where you know your eco has to be way better than his and he can't produce enough units to kill you, you should then take a third and drone because if he 1 bases for a long time then expands it could even the game out again if you dont, it might be okay to do light pressure with your units but dont get caught in a crappy position on a ramp if you can help it.
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On March 02 2012 00:28 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 23:32 Olsson wrote:
Right so terran goes for standard reactor hellion expand. But he goes for like eight hellions instead of stopping at four and just runs inside my base, what can I do to counter this? On maps like metalopolis even if I do get two spines to protect it they can just run up my ramp and fry all my drones for like a 800 mineral investment which isnt much considering it ALWAYS pays off. I have no idea on how to beat this retarded strat. NO. I wont go roaches it delays my mutas to the extent where he can take a free third and skip turrets for a long time meaning my mutas doesnt really do anything. Um. Fast mutas don't do much for you in current ZvT anyway. I've been seeing and having success with going heavy Ling/Bane --> 3-4 base muta. The initial 10 mutas or so have become more of a risk with the amount of timings made to expose the lack of banelings due to saving up for mutas, and 2 base muta is taken advantage of a lot by fast 3rd CC since you can't really kill micro'd hellions without Mutas or roaches. Going Roaches (only 2, you only need more if he goes up to 8+ hellions) lets you take a third faster, and gives you the ability to punish 3rd CC with Roach/Ling pressure.
For 8 hellions you need to have mutas or roaches, with good spine placement you might be able to pull the drones into your main and use your queens to fight them in the natural but if the terran just runs away they win on mining time lost still.
You need to get a ling scout to his ramp to check the factory and see if it still has a reactor, since its usually at the ramp, if you can't see it you need to make a roach warren blindly when you see 4 hellions or hit the timing where 4 hellions could exist, then make 3-4 roaches.
I'm really loving my early roach warren now, been able to spread SO much creep that it doesnt even feel like wasted gas anymore.
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Yea I do the 4 queen 1 gas roach warren quick 3rd type of build. Gets you a crap ton of mineral income so quickly. Use that income for macro hatch and mass units 3 base or a quick 4th then start teching after 4 base.
With heavy mineral income upgrades do well since you have more units so fast so a quick 1/1 for lings is good stuff.
Also, I recommend every zerg have at least APM sink at any point in the game. For me it starts overlord spreading (shift queing them around to defend drops later on), then creep spread midgame once i get about halfway across the map i stop or dont focus on it, then burrowed banelings after creep spread is done.
Having something you can always do will make you faster as your hands will try to finish what theyre working on quicker so u can go do what u are thinking about next.
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On March 02 2012 03:28 TheGreenMachine wrote:
Yea I do the 4 queen 1 gas roach warren quick 3rd type of build. Gets you a crap ton of mineral income so quickly. Use that income for macro hatch and mass units 3 base or a quick 4th then start teching after 4 base.
With heavy mineral income upgrades do well since you have more units so fast so a quick 1/1 for lings is good stuff.
Also, I recommend every zerg have at least APM sink at any point in the game. For me it starts overlord spreading (shift queing them around to defend drops later on), then creep spread midgame once i get about halfway across the map i stop or dont focus on it, then burrowed banelings after creep spread is done.
Having something you can always do will make you faster as your hands will try to finish what theyre working on quicker so u can go do what u are thinking about next.
I creep spread relentlessly all game. Burrowed banelings, not so much, although I probably should more often...
I almost always have a creep queen. Making Terran waste scans is so, so underrated in the first 10-15 mins of the game. After that when they have like 5 orbitals or whatever late game, not so important.
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High Silver here. Im looking for help on a winning game. I tried to do the Ice Fisher build, but its really sloppy. My mechanics are gold level at least but my overall decision making is what is holding me back. Im going to post a winning game where I take it with ease and one where I get stomped. Please let me know what I can do to improve in areas needed (tear me up). Thanks community!
Big Win
http://drop.sc/124543
Big loss
http://drop.sc/124552
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Hey Diamond zerg here, I'm having trouble in lategame getting the right composition to deal with my opponents armies. What are some ideal lategame comps I should be striving for in zvp and zvt? Right now the terran mech ball and protoss col/temp/ archon are giving me alot of trouble. Thanks guys
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On March 01 2012 23:25 Roynalf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 22:54 looken wrote:
dear zergs
im sorry if this question has already been answerd but i just dont have the nerves to search right know.
can someone pls tell me, how i'm supposed to stop the protoss 6,7 or 8gate "all in"? i just cant do it and it seems like every protoss in platin league is doing it right now. what i know so far is that i should take a fast 3rd if i see protoss FE. go to about 60 drones and than build units. but well i dont know if i just lack the micro management or if roach, ling ist the wrong unit composition or w/e. but i simply cannot hold it off. and it just feels so frustrating to watch a replay and from protoss point of view, my base i just a super massiv black hole. but then he pushes and with some more or less decent FF he just stomps me.
thx for any kind of help (but pls dont tell me that i just suck. thats what i obviously know already)
You should post replay, but for now I just tell you what was my problem back at that level, I started to prepare for attack too early, way I defend all 2 base attacks is I get roach warren, evo chamber and 4 gasses at 7 minute mark, with first 300 gas, get ranged + 1 attack, ling speed and lair. Dont get supply blocked, this is most important thing at this moment of game. Start massing roaches and lings around 8:45 try to keep constant injects and overlord production. Throw few spines just to give some help. Keep massing units and keep hitting your injects even during the attack. If you managed to get over 60 drones before the attack and you dont loose third or economy you can just defend constant waves of units with better economy. Keep one ling at his third base location. He most likely tries to take this after failed all in if he doesnt just quit. If you opponent backs off or you kill all his units go put some pressure on him with your army, take fourth base, get double evo upgrades take rest of your gas and start transitioning into infestors or mutas, your choice and just contain him on 2 bases and secure your victory by teching to infestor broodlord.
I really disagree with this.
To beat a 6 gate +1 or 7 gate all-in, you need to stop droning at ~65-70 supply, or ~55 drones, at the 8 minute mark (if you aren't hitting at least 65 supply at the 8 minute mark, then you have some serious macro issues that you need to work out - making a single overlord too early can cause you a good 3-5 supply, so be careful of that, don't be making 2 overlords at once at 44 supply, much less get supply blocked).
You should be able to tell 100% what's going on if toss is doing a probe cutting, 6 gate +1/7gate all-in if he has no gas at his natural (ie running only on 2 gas that he has to take quickly in main, so it's not like he can just have the gas at natural to 'fake you out'.), and furthermore by seeing a ton of buildings, ie gateways, in his main with overlord sacs.
I'd say the most important thing to do when going fast third, besides making the third and getting drones, is putting an overlord by their natural's gas. Every pro does this, and you should really have at least 2 overlords at his main too (some pros cut corners a bit here and only put 1, that's fine if you are really good at scouting, but seeing no gas at nat should clue you in enough).
Then, at the 8 minute mark/65+ supply/~55 drone mark, you need to start 100% unit production. You shouldn't be making lair, if you go lair before 8 minutes, you'll just autolose. Standard lair timing is around 8 minutes, and should be done as a reaction to seeing gas in the nat of the Toss (ie more gas, quicker lair, no gas, delay lair).
The rest is just standard 3 base, you know, ~7:00 evo if you think a stargate/DT is possible (ie you see at least a 3rd gas), 7:30 roach warren, ~2 gas taken when third is done (personally I just take 1 gas when third is started, and don't get 2nd gas until roach warren, but you want about 2 gas when third finishes, unless you take one earlier, 2nd later, like I do).
Making units at 8:45 is a little late, as a good 6 gate +1 will push out at 8:30 (warp gate finishes at 8:00), and hits around 8:50.
Also, I strongly recommend AGAINST getting upgrades against such fast gateway pushes. Considering upgrades take 160 seconds, if you get +1 against a 6 gate, it critically delays units. 160 seconds after 7:00, that's 35+160=195, which means your upgrade won't finish until 10:15. You'll be long dead by that point.
If you scouted perfectly, you would've cut out the evo chamber, but it's pretty standard to get since Toss can go no gas stargate and then late 3rd gas, but you definitely don't get lair or upgrades against such timings attacks.
You should hold it off pretty easily as long as you delayed lair when seeing no gas in toss natural, and pumped out units after 8:00. Then you can get lair and upgrades when you realize you can hold it off, if you can make it to about 90 supply you should be pretty safe.
As soon as you realize you are going to hold, you'll want to get that roach speed so you can close out the game. He won't have any tech, and no third, and will just die. They might try to get a robo or twilight to stay alive, but you should just have a completely overwhelming number of units. A true, probe-cutting, 6 gate +1 at 8:30, if you hold it off, you should just be able to autowin since Toss will be so far behind, just like a 4 gate that's successfully held off.
I think it's a good idea to practice with someone against this, because if you can fend off this all-in, you should have a general idea of how to execute fast third vs Toss and be able to hold any all-in.
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors4/vod/65777
Trickster vs Losira
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^ you can tell the losira vs trickster game is old because losira hit 2k minerals lol (mostly cuz he made lings instead of roaches and probly missed some injects)
However it is a good example of defending a strong 7 gate +1 push
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On March 02 2012 05:11 Odoyle wrote:High Silver here. Im looking for help on a winning game. I tried to do the Ice Fisher build, but its really sloppy. My mechanics are gold level at least but my overall decision making is what is holding me back. Im going to post a winning game where I take it with ease and one where I get stomped. Please let me know what I can do to improve in areas needed (tear me up). Thanks community! Big Win http://drop.sc/124543Big loss http://drop.sc/124552
I watched both games and I found a few easy things you could work on that I think would greatly improve your play.
The main difference between game 1 (your win) and game 2 (your loss) is that in game 1 you were 2-3 bases vs. 1-1.5 bases, and in game 2 you were 2 bases vs. 2-3 bases. In both games they generally had the same number and type of buildings. As a general rule, you want to have at least 1 more base than a protoss (or terran for that matter) in order to have a chance- this allows you to obviously have more cash, but what's really important is getting more larvae.
You had soooo much cash both games, and the reason was because of larvae! If you watch both games there are periods where you do not use your queens enough >:/. In game 1, you were able to win because you had 5 hatches and even though you lost the first major engagement, you rebuilt your army immediately and he couldn't because he was on 1 base (his main was mined out by this point). In game 2 you were down a base (read: you should always lose in this scenario). You also only had the 2 bases, with no macro hatches. If you know your habit is to build up a lot of cash, put down the macro hatch sooner (you did put it down at some point, but not soon enough!)
You were overdroned in both games. This means you had too many drones at one of your hatches. Solution- make sure you are monitoring where your new drones are going, and if there are too many at one base, move a few!
In game 1 you also went corruptor instead of mutalisks (game 2). I think you should have realized in game 2 that going mutalisks would leave you extremely vulnerable to a large ground push (which you saw he had the units capable of doing this). So while you were able to harass his probes, it cost you the game.
Scouting- you did attempt to scout a little bit, but I think a small tweak to your overlord use would help you a lot. Set a time in game (say 8-9 minutes) that you will make an overseer to scout out the entire base and see what they're building. You tried this in game 2 but lost it. Don't leave the OL in range for him to shoot it, just wait until 8 minutes in, make an OS, and then make the sprint across his base to see what he has. Also, if you kept tabs on him every few minutes you would have known he was camping a little in the beginning, which would signal to you it's time to get an early 3rd.
So, in short:
- Focus on hitting injects and using your larvae when you get it ($$$$$ is useless without larvae to spend it on).
*******Top Priority*********
Enter every game with the goal of not missing injects and using all your larvae- you'll be surprised how much this helps. If you take anything away, focus on this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Pay attention to how many hatches you have compared to your opponent.
- Make sure if you are producing drones you know where they are going.
- Make a conscious effort to know (or at least have an idea) of what your opponent is doing.
Your creep spread was good both games, make sure you keep doing that.
And if you find your macro slipped and you have too much cash:
- get researches
- make a macro hatch or 2
- tech to hive
- get t3 units
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Hello guys,
In ZvP I am trying scouting early these days. This is mainly to know if protoss is FFE or gateway expanding and adapt my gas timings. But I have also tried blocking protoss fast expand in case he FFEs, by building some evo chamber on his b2 place. I am doing it only when he blocked my expand with a pylon. What do you guys think about this? In a sense, I really like it because it throws his opening off and delays quite significantly his nexus, but at the same time, I realised it's quite some money: 200 minerals (75 to make hatch cancel, + 75 minerals for evo chamber + 50 minerals for the drone, i.e. 200 minerals). So this would be the equivalent of 2 pylons, which may concretely be : his pylon block, the equivalent for his nexus delay, it may also force some extra canons (or not).
Amongst other things I am concerned with, I am also not sure he wouldn't be able to make some +1 attack 4 gate, based on the fact that my opening is delayed, that I may have taken my third before my second due to him blocking my nat, and that he cannot take his b2 for a little while.
I am also considering the possibility to actually make a complete hatch to block the expand much more efficiently. that would be 150 minerals more, but would last much longer.
As a compromise solution I was thinking, that maybe I should do it only on maps where taking a third is not really easy (like on ST).
Any opinion about this?
(I am low master).
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The ice fisher is a really, really horrible build, in every match-up. It just completely kills your econ. It was okay a year ago back when no one knew how to macro and every terran did a 1 base all-in or actually opened banshees. It just completely sacs your econ, and there is absolutely no map control with it, and you have no ability to scout either. Please stop referencing it, it's so outdated now.
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But I have also tried blocking protoss fast expand in case he FFEs, by building some evo chamber on his b2 place. I
Not really a good idea. Leenock did something like that at MLG, but it was to follow something up, and he didn't get ahead exactly from it either (supply was same afterwards). Opponent lost because he failed to scout and prep for a roach/ling all-in, it would've happened the same way either way.
If they block your expo with a pylon just take your third, or when your pool pops (you should be going pool first in ZvP anyways) you put lings on it( 3 on pylon, 1 on probe, or some variation like that, if toss went nexus first and then forge/gateway, you can maybe make it worthwhile to run all lings into his base and make 2 more to deal with pylon while taking third instead).
At the lower levels, sure, you can maybe throw off someone's opening, but more than likely your opening is 'thrown off' too, and macro is an issue for everyone at that level. A better way to 'throw someone off' at the lower levels is just send 2 scouting workers and do some worker harass. It's pretty bad idea, but as far as 'throwing someone off', it works wonders at lower levels of play.
I just veto every map where you can't take a third. Closing off the options a Zerg can do is ridiculous, on makes like ST or TDA it's basically a build order gamble hoping the opponent doesn't prepare correctly, and it's pretty easy to rule out 2 base roach/ling and 2 base muta quite quickly to figure out what to do.
Just play normal. There is nothing wrong with 14pool/21hatch with 4 lings, Toss invested in that pylon so it's okay to delay that hatch if he made a pylon.
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On March 02 2012 17:55 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote + But I have also tried blocking protoss fast expand in case he FFEs, by building some evo chamber on his b2 place. I Not really a good idea. Leenock did something like that at MLG, but it was to follow something up, and he didn't get ahead exactly from it either (supply was same afterwards). Opponent lost because he failed to scout and prep for a roach/ling all-in, it would've happened the same way either way. If they block your expo with a pylon just take your third, or when your pool pops (you should be going pool first in ZvP anyways) you put lings on it( 3 on pylon, 1 on probe, or some variation like that, if toss went nexus first and then forge/gateway, you can maybe make it worthwhile to run all lings into his base and make 2 more to deal with pylon while taking third instead). At the lower levels, sure, you can maybe throw off someone's opening, but more than likely your opening is 'thrown off' too, and macro is an issue for everyone at that level. A better way to 'throw someone off' at the lower levels is just send 2 scouting workers and do some worker harass. It's pretty bad idea, but as far as 'throwing someone off', it works wonders at lower levels of play. I just veto every map where you can't take a third. Closing off the options a Zerg can do is ridiculous, on makes like ST or TDA it's basically a build order gamble hoping the opponent doesn't prepare correctly, and it's pretty easy to rule out 2 base roach/ling and 2 base muta quite quickly to figure out what to do. Just play normal. There is nothing wrong with 14pool/21hatch with 4 lings, Toss invested in that pylon so it's okay to delay that hatch if he made a pylon.
I just want to add: make sure you keep an eye on the pylon/probe, seeing as he might just throw down a single cannon in your nat which will force 10/12 lings or some 1base tech nonsense which will lose.
Someone correct me on this but 4 drones deal the damage damage as a cannon "builds", so 5 drones can kill that cannon, any more is just wasteful.
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It's not letting me delete this post... double post.
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If you want to hatch block Protoss, then scout on 10 on small maps like Shakuras, and 9 on bigger maps. If he has not started his forge by the time you arrive, or if it's just starting, throw down a hatch in his natural like Leenock vs MC. Most protosses up to even high masters don't handle it properly. You throw down a hatch, then pool after, then once the proxy is done start a queen, and you want to plant a tumor in the back near his mineral line, out of the cannon range. You can also make lings from the hatchery and rally them into the protoss main to kill some probes. Do all this while taking your natural as well.
If the protoss makes 2 cannons asap, depending on his forge timing, they MIGHT barely force you to cancel your hatch because the queen might not come out in time, but that's okay, just go ahead and take your third fast as usual, and you've delayed his nexus a while and forced 2 cannons and maybe even an earlier zealot. Most tosses only make 1 cannon anyway, and don't know they also have to probe surround the queen the moment it comes out.
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I've been having problems against Terran lately...
It seems that they don't have any problems with Muta harrass anymore because they go 85% marine / 15% tank. My question is twofold: What is the answer to this composition? How many Mutas should I really build?
I feel like I build too many Mutas, which end up being fairly worthless against all his Marines and turrets, and in turn, that doesn't leave much gas for banelings. I usually try to switch to infestor to deal with all those marines, but that yields the same issue... not much gas for banelings.
Is the priority to have enough banelings and then make mutas and infestors as I am able? I feel like I've been doing it the other way around, squeaking out banelings when I have spare gas.
Please let me know your thoughts when facing this composition in the mid-game!
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EPT
