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On March 03 2012 03:50 Werezerg wrote:
@ zvt vs mech:
1) dont loose any/many drones vs helion harrasements. quite obvious but a lot of times people are searching for other faults, but they simply lost too many drones and afterwards they just didnt have enough stuff
2) you want about 65/70 drones and 3/4 bases. that means you cannot tech for hive, build spire, tech infs/glands, make upgrades, drop and everything at once or you will just loose.
so dont tech too fast and stick to one tech route,
3) army comp: i prefer infestors, with mass roach. burrow is important. use mass inf terrans (8 per inf!) on his tanks (with burrowed infs) while engaging. (np sucks after the nerf and drop... i wouldnt do it. mutas are probably viable but risky, need to be well timed) Always fokus the tanks if you can not the thors, tanks have a lot higher dps, thors are the shield infront of the tanks.
4) never engage sieged tanks, if you dont have to. if he has a good position against you just counter. i´d even say in 90% of all cases it is better to counter than defend.
best case scenario: he pushes an expansion (instead of nat/main) so just slide drones away to another expansion (build beforehand) and counter attack him. you loose nearly nothing and you can cripple him so hard that he is all-in.
5) at some point you will definitly need hive units, so when you have your 70 drones and 4 bases it´s probably a good time.
@ zvp hatch block vs ffe:
in my eyes it´s totally worth it, it´s just hard to place the hatch against a good protoss. building a queen and creep there is stupid i´d say... you would invest 500 mins rly early just to delay his nexus, if he just switches to 4 gate you just wasted the 500 mins and you are dead. hatch -> evo is the way to go. sometimes a ling runby with maybe 6 lings at the moment your evo gets killed and the broodlings spawn is just great! (but you need to be fast with the lings to be there in time)
1) obviously.
2) Obviously you cannot tech to everything at once. You can afford 1/1 upgrades for roaches when your Lair is 75% done, and then have around 300 gas after that for drop tech and roach speed. Then OV speed when drop is like 75% done iirc. You definitely have enough gas on 4 bases to get Infestors. You don't need instant full saturation on your 4th, the gas is more important initially. Mass roach with Infestor and no NP will not kill mech with 4-6 thors. Thors will shield tanks so well and all your roaches will just die. Also, you're saying you don't get drop, you're high diamond, must never have faced good mech player. If you never harass them in some way you will lose. How do you delay a third with just roach infestor and no drops or mutas? Good tank placement will murder you.
3) You can engage sieged tanks if you do it properly. How are you going to counter with roach infestor? Terran lifts, kills all your buildings and wins.
about hatch block w/ queens: hatch --> evo doesn't do anything for you imo, 1 cannon easily takes care of it. making a queen there if you get the tumor means he cannot expo until he gets an obs out. you are free to saturate 2 bases, THEN take a third. 4 gate will not kill you at all, are you serious? he's already went forge first and delayed his cyber core.
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I'm by no means good versus mech. But don't you HAVE to go mutas vs mech to stop them from just massing tanks and killing you before brood lords? It feels like if you just go roach infestor without mutas he can get like one thor, skip turrets and just make pure tank with a few hellions and just go kill you or even expand more aggresively because of the tanks.
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blue flame helion is usually a bit indicator for mech play, throw down a roach den the moment you see blue flame upgrade. (you can click helions to see if it´s done). sometimes expanding with speedlings works too, and if you are delayed a lot place a macro hatch in your main.
i have the same problem and i guess it´s just the downside of not building a fast roach warren all the time.
On March 03 2012 04:12 Olsson wrote:
I'm by no means good versus mech. But don't you HAVE to go mutas vs mech to stop them from just massing tanks and killing you before brood lords? It feels like if you just go roach infestor without mutas he can get like one thor, skip turrets and just make pure tank with a few hellions and just go kill you or even expand more aggresively because of the tanks.
no you don´t have to. actually i think you don´t gain much with "forcing" thors with mutas. thors are not weak against roaches at all, and with a few thors all your mutas are like wasted mins/gas.
here a replay stephano against goody where he plays with just roach ling and wins (it´s rly a great replay i hope it helps all you guys):
>>replay<<
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On March 03 2012 04:12 Olsson wrote:
I'm by no means good versus mech. But don't you HAVE to go mutas vs mech to stop them from just massing tanks and killing you before brood lords? It feels like if you just go roach infestor without mutas he can get like one thor, skip turrets and just make pure tank with a few hellions and just go kill you or even expand more aggresively because of the tanks.
I've never had success with muta vs mech - if he gets more than 2 or 3 2/2 thors your mutas wind up melting even when you magic box perfectly. If you've had success with it, I'd love to a replay, because I'm probably doing something wrong during the engagement. (This is not by any means unlikely, my control is poor.)
I don't necessarily know the answer to what to do against a mech player who masses tanks (gimmicky things like roach drops on the tank line or burrowed roaches might work once, but aren't reliable) except the same thing I suggested previously - know when they move out, force them to constantly siege using roach/infestor harass, use drops on the main to do damage behind it, block reinforcements.
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Hey everyone, I have some problems with using control groups efficiently. So far I have often been a victim to the one control group syndrome, and I'm trying to split my armies to harass with small chunks of lings while fighting for instance.
I use the "stephano method" i.e hotkeying eggs to my control group 1 (army), is there anyone who has a good solution on how to quickly make some lings control group 2 and remove them from army? I usually hotkey some lings as 2 and send them somewhere, but when I move/attack with my army somewhere they follow that command too (still in control group 1).
Please help!
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In late game ZvP what am I supposed to do? Just played this game where I went early three base vs FFE toss then roach ling into muta and when he got his third base I spined up got six bases, infestors and brood lords but he just stomped right trough me in a 46 minute long game. He got feedbacks off meaning I couldn't chainfungal his archons going into the vortex and killing most of my broodlords and when he killed my first army he just got six bases and turtled into immortal, archon, stalker, HT, colossus, voidray, mothership and I just couldnt win vs it.
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On March 02 2012 17:49 Belial88 wrote:
The ice fisher is a really, really horrible build, in every match-up. It just completely kills your econ. It was okay a year ago back when no one knew how to macro and every terran did a 1 base all-in or actually opened banshees. It just completely sacs your econ, and there is absolutely no map control with it, and you have no ability to scout either. Please stop referencing it, it's so outdated now.
Yeah this is basically true, before terrans realized they could make 3 cc's and out macro zerg straight up
On March 03 2012 06:33 Olsson wrote:
In late game ZvP what am I supposed to do? Just played this game where I went early three base vs FFE toss then roach ling into muta and when he got his third base I spined up got six bases, infestors and brood lords but he just stomped right trough me in a 46 minute long game. He got feedbacks off meaning I couldn't chainfungal his archons going into the vortex and killing most of my broodlords and when he killed my first army he just got six bases and turtled into immortal, archon, stalker, HT, colossus, voidray, mothership and I just couldnt win vs it.
You need corruptors with that army specifically against mothership, and if he ever tries to move the mommaship up to vortex you (I call that the "I win" button), sacrifice all the corruptors for the mothership, that's the only advice that I have.
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On March 03 2012 04:12 Olsson wrote:
I'm by no means good versus mech. But don't you HAVE to go mutas vs mech to stop them from just massing tanks and killing you before brood lords? It feels like if you just go roach infestor without mutas he can get like one thor, skip turrets and just make pure tank with a few hellions and just go kill you or even expand more aggresively because of the tanks.
Not necessarily. If he doesn't have enough anti air, you can choose to just pick up the majority of your army and drop it directly on his tanks.
In late game ZvP what am I supposed to do? Just played this game where I went early three base vs FFE toss then roach ling into muta and when he got his third base I spined up got six bases, infestors and brood lords but he just stomped right trough me in a 46 minute long game. He got feedbacks off meaning I couldn't chainfungal his archons going into the vortex and killing most of my broodlords and when he killed my first army he just got six bases and turtled into immortal, archon, stalker, HT, colossus, voidray, mothership and I just couldnt win vs it.
once the mothership comes out:
Keep your broodlords, corruptors, infestors, and queens (queens for transfuse are really great) spread out so that he can never get a big chunk of them in one vortex. Even if they are hotkeyed, you should be moving them around by boxing, because you don't want them grouping up. Anytime it looks like he is going to push forward, spew a bunch of infested terrans (hopefully +3 attack!) in front so he eats a lot of damage if he tries to blink snipe a broodlord or advance towards you. You want to pick away at his army without making a full engagement, so you poke forward with a few broodlords, launch broodlings and back up. Constantly scout his army with changelings (since you need mass overseer anyway). It feels like you are just waiting for him to make a mistake. If the mothership pokes too far forward, hit it with a few spread out corruptors (but not all, or they get stormed or vortexed!) or even try to neural parasite it. if you can fungal it while a few corruptors chew on it, that's great because it forces him to move forward to save it, and that involves walking into a field of infested terrans and broodlings. Just make sure you don't give him a good vortex target. If he wastes his vortex, dodge it, kill the mothership, and kill his army. I find many opponents get impatient and bungle the engagement, either wasting the vortex, or letting me neural the mothership (7 range, how the heck?).
While this deadlock happens, run around the map killing things with zerglings. Use drops or a nydus worm if necessary. If he didn't build enough cannons at his new bases, kill them. Kill gateways/tech in his main base. He is probably maxed and can't warp in. The idea behind this is you want to be slowly crawling further and further ahead in the game while your armies are deadlocked and unable to fight each other. All this time you want to be getting double upgrades on your spire. It helps the broodlords out, but most importantly it keeps your corruptors competitive against his air, and keeps them alive longer against upgraded ground units.
That's my take on it. Good luck.
Here's a sample replay of mine (NA masters) where I end up playing split map shakuras against a protoss, which is every zerg's nightmare, but I felt I handled it well. There are multiple motherships, and although I don't handle it perfectly, I manage to pull it off. The ling harass is probably the most important part of the game, even though it is less exciting than the massive broodlord/infestor/queen/mothership/archon battles.
It's far from a perfect game, but it could maybe offer some inspiration. It IS possible.
http://drop.sc/106973
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On March 03 2012 06:33 Olsson wrote:
In late game ZvP what am I supposed to do?
You lose.
I wish there was honest advice I could give you but I don't think it's possible for Zerg to beat Protoss late game on equal bases.
Heck, even on 6 base vs 4 base, you still lose.
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United States2095 Posts
On March 03 2012 06:52 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 06:33 Olsson wrote:
In late game ZvP what am I supposed to do? You lose. I wish there was honest advice I could give you but I don't think it's possible for Zerg to beat Protoss late game on equal bases. Heck, even on 6 base vs 4 base, you still lose.
Max at 200/200 of roaches with dual evo chambers. Then you proceed to defend / attack while doing this if appropriate. Spend some of your many drones on spines, and suicide some roaches if you need to on infestors. You should have a LOT of infestors. Defend if hes attacking at all. Make sure u try and stay at least 1 gas base ahead of P. Eventually go into corrupter infestor spinecrawler, if he ever attacks, use lings / spines / w/e roaches left + infestors /corrupters to hold, and then make sure some corrupters live, morph them into BL and you have a strong BL / Infestor army. Bring a Overseer and put 1 overseer at each base with 1-2 spines. You can do it! 
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On March 03 2012 04:12 Olsson wrote:
I'm by no means good versus mech. But don't you HAVE to go mutas vs mech to stop them from just massing tanks and killing you before brood lords? It feels like if you just go roach infestor without mutas he can get like one thor, skip turrets and just make pure tank with a few hellions and just go kill you or even expand more aggresively because of the tanks.
You get Mutas to contain and harass your opponent. The point of Mech is to amass a super army off of two to three bases so going mutas against Mech doesnt seem that smart when the terran already wants to stay in his base and defend. When I see someone is Meching I immediately double expand and build a shit ton of spines and tech as fast as I can to BLs with making as few roaches and Banes as possible.
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Hey, so i have a local tournament tomorrow @ McMaster University.
I placed forth last time, and I want to win even more now! I'm a mid-masters player looking to break through to higher levels of play. I'm fairly competent in terms of build orders and unit-compositions, but I need critics on the finer aspects of play (i believe).
Here are some replays: 2 of each matchup.
http://drop.sc/125139/d
http://drop.sc/125140/d
http://drop.sc/125141/d
http://drop.sc/125142/d
http://drop.sc/125143/d
http://drop.sc/125144/d
Sheth actually just answered one of my questions (THANKS!), but here are some more!
- OVERLORD PATHS!! Sometimes if i'm too safe, I won't be able to get that overlord to scout the banshee, etc. However, sometimes when I try to be reasonably risky with the OL, it gets sniped.
- Response to defending a 2base timing from protoss - If i go to crush them with roaches immediately after, I seem to lose. If i macro and try to get t3 out, I seem to lose. Not sure what the general proper response is here, but I think this may just be a mechanical problem rather than strategic.
- Doing damage with MUTAS zvz - Seems like every time I go mutas, hydra + spore crawler defense prevents me from doing damage. Am I just too scared to engage the mineral line?
Potential weak factors: Supply blocks, creep spread, scouting, timings, and multitasking.
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To the guys above that helped me:
Thanks. But going infestor broodlord can force the base race. On antiga for example even if I take the southern part of the map and get +10 spines on each base he can easily just trade three bases for his three. I find this very hard to deal with especially if they're good and use recall once they took our my three bases. Even if I spine up and have decent positioning it's hard to deal with.
To Sheth:
On maps like Antiga and Tal'Darim how are you supposed to rely on heavy spine crawlers when it's so much space to cover let alone so much space to spread out your units on to cover with? Spine/Infestor/Corruptor sounds really good if the maps allow it!
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On March 03 2012 06:58 Liquid`Sheth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 06:52 Flonomenalz wrote:On March 03 2012 06:33 Olsson wrote:
In late game ZvP what am I supposed to do? You lose. I wish there was honest advice I could give you but I don't think it's possible for Zerg to beat Protoss late game on equal bases. Heck, even on 6 base vs 4 base, you still lose. Max at 200/200 of roaches with dual evo chambers. Then you proceed to defend / attack while doing this if appropriate. Spend some of your many drones on spines, and suicide some roaches if you need to on infestors. You should have a LOT of infestors. Defend if hes attacking at all. Make sure u try and stay at least 1 gas base ahead of P. Eventually go into corrupter infestor spinecrawler, if he ever attacks, use lings / spines / w/e roaches left + infestors /corrupters to hold, and then make sure some corrupters live, morph them into BL and you have a strong BL / Infestor army. Bring a Overseer and put 1 overseer at each base with 1-2 spines. You can do it!
Hey Sheth - what's your opinion of ZvP on tal'darim altar right now?
After any protoss goes FFE, I find it almost impossible to take a fast third and hold it against timing attacks since the third bases are so far away.... t.t This is especially true when the protoss is one position counterclockwise from you, since you either have to take the bottom third and basically forego defending it with roaches (they're slow as hell before lair/speed), or expand right under his nose (This is just a stupid idea since he can warp into your third from his main lol).
Do you think that map should just be 2 base muta or 2 base ling/infestor?
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United States1201 Posts
Hey, so I'm a bronze zerg in 1v1. (I play protoss for 2v2 though).
What are some good ways to get out of bronze without resorting to 6pools every time? I can macro reasonably well (by bronze standard at least,) so some good tips would be nice.
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On March 03 2012 10:04 Swampflare wrote:
Hey, so I'm a bronze zerg in 1v1. (I play protoss for 2v2 though).
What are some good ways to get out of bronze without resorting to 6pools every time? I can macro reasonably well (by bronze standard at least,) so some good tips would be nice.
All you need to do is work on your Macro... it might be ok by bronze standards but if you want silver or gold you can get there just by macroing better than your opponent. I would seek out some higher level zerg players to watch you play or post some replays and they will give you tips on what you can do to improve your macro... if it is good, you will not be in bronze league. Good luck!
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On March 02 2012 17:49 Belial88 wrote:
The ice fisher is a really, really horrible build, in every match-up. It just completely kills your econ. It was okay a year ago back when no one knew how to macro and every terran did a 1 base all-in or actually opened banshees. It just completely sacs your econ, and there is absolutely no map control with it, and you have no ability to scout either. Please stop referencing it, it's so outdated now.
You're being too extreme there. I know at least 1 europe GM that has 2 account in there by playing this build in ZvT.
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This has probably been answered before in this thread, but how do you at least keep up in drone count when you are in a ZvZ situation?
Right now, all of my ZvZ games basically come down to one thing: Who got ahead in drones? Either he builds too many units early or I build too many units early. Either way, the game was lost at like the 10 minute mark but the killing blow takes 20 minutes to show up. I just don't know what signs to be scouting for to know I should slam out another batch of workers if I want to stay in the game.
Any advice for me?
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On March 03 2012 17:40 Kyeudo wrote:
This has probably been answered before in this thread, but how do you at least keep up in drone count when you are in a ZvZ situation?
Right now, all of my ZvZ games basically come down to one thing: Who got ahead in drones? Either he builds too many units early or I build too many units early. Either way, the game was lost at like the 10 minute mark but the killing blow takes 20 minutes to show up. I just don't know what signs to be scouting for to know I should slam out another batch of workers if I want to stay in the game.
Any advice for me?
Personally I prefer losing due to making too many drones rather than losing due to making too few. Just try to poke in every now and then to see if he is massing units, and remember he might be trying to hide mass-lings early on. Not really sure if there's anything specific that gives such a build away without actually spotting the units/spotting few drones however.
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On March 03 2012 17:40 Kyeudo wrote:
This has probably been answered before in this thread, but how do you at least keep up in drone count when you are in a ZvZ situation?
Right now, all of my ZvZ games basically come down to one thing: Who got ahead in drones? Either he builds too many units early or I build too many units early. Either way, the game was lost at like the 10 minute mark but the killing blow takes 20 minutes to show up. I just don't know what signs to be scouting for to know I should slam out another batch of workers if I want to stay in the game.
Any advice for me?
get a overlord behind his mineral line (should be possible on all maps) and count drones. Also count the Units you see like zerglings or roaches. This should give you a good advice how many larvae went into units and how many into drones. You need to scout.
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EPT
