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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On March 03 2012 07:10 doss wrote:Hey, so i have a local tournament tomorrow @ McMaster University. I placed forth last time, and I want to win even more now! I'm a mid-masters player looking to break through to higher levels of play. I'm fairly competent in terms of build orders and unit-compositions, but I need critics on the finer aspects of play (i believe). Here are some replays: 2 of each matchup. http://drop.sc/125139/dhttp://drop.sc/125140/dhttp://drop.sc/125141/dhttp://drop.sc/125142/dhttp://drop.sc/125143/dhttp://drop.sc/125144/dSheth actually just answered one of my questions (THANKS!), but here are some more! - OVERLORD PATHS!! Sometimes if i'm too safe, I won't be able to get that overlord to scout the banshee, etc. However, sometimes when I try to be reasonably risky with the OL, it gets sniped. - Response to defending a 2base timing from protoss - If i go to crush them with roaches immediately after, I seem to lose. If i macro and try to get t3 out, I seem to lose. Not sure what the general proper response is here, but I think this may just be a mechanical problem rather than strategic. - Doing damage with MUTAS zvz - Seems like every time I go mutas, hydra + spore crawler defense prevents me from doing damage. Am I just too scared to engage the mineral line? Potential weak factors: Supply blocks, creep spread, scouting, timings, and multitasking.
I'm not a masters level player, so take what I say with a couple tons of salt, but here's what I think.
I don't know much about OL paths, I generally don't scout with any OLs except my first one. I'm a newbie. x)
When you hold off 2 base timing attacks, you should be 3 base right? I think the best thing to do is to NOT go try to kill them. You can't do that vs Protoss, what with cannons, forcefields. What you can do is take map control. Prevent him from taking a third. Take a 4th of your own, tech to infestors, prepare to transition into BL. Maybe you'll be able to snipe buildings from his wall, without having to commit. If you're up at 4 bases with Hive tech against a 2 base Protoss, things are easy. You should try to get more ahead instead of trying to crushing them immediately. Strategic problem, not mechanical. Go watch the Artosis hour on Ret vs State on Antiga shipyard. Artosis is the smartest human being alive. Day9 also had a daily on that game, also lots of great information in there.
I don't like theory crafting but the analysis that Day9 and Artosis provide are so incredibly in-depth, no one but pros can really say "already know that lulz".
As for Muta in ZvZ, I think they shouldn't be used to actually damage the other Zerg player. "Wtf?" I hear you say. But hear me out bro, this is something I've started doing and it really wins me a lot of ZvZs. I believe Nestea does this too. You want to go 2 base Muta and then take your third. Generally a Roach/Ling timing won't be able to take down your third because lings and 10 Muta will be able to hold off those timings. If you get enough Muta fast enough. Then you use your own muta to force static anti-air from your opponent, those being Queens and Spine Crawlers. He has to make them or you can kill a lot of drones. Thing is, your opponent can't get spores at his third (if you do the timing right) because the third is in production, meaning no creep for Queens or Spore crawlers, meaning you can snipe.
That means you have a 3rd while your opponent doesn't. Your opponent has invested resources into air defense, while you haven't. You put those resources into drones for your 3rd and suddenly you're up 3 bases.
After that though, I find that Muta are only good for map vision/control, sniping OLs and preventing ninja expansions from going up. You transition into Roach/Infestors (with banelings if he has a lot of Hydra) and you should just outmass him, especially if you continue to deny his third base.
That's how I play ZvZ, and that's how I use muta in that mu.
Hope I've given you food for thought here. x)
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http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=256613
On metalopolis I get proxy two raxed, I scout it very early so in response I go 15 pool 14 extractor in reaction but I was planning to 15 hatch. I find the proxy raxes, make one queen and just pump ling and get speed but he pulls all but four SCV's and just attacks into my main. I can't hold it even with the amount of lings I have, queen and slightly superior drone count to his SCVs attacking. I didn't have a spine and I didn't stall for long.
A) I should've made a spine. But then I can't put pressure back and I havn't expanded yet so if I make a spine I can't use it to defend my upcoming expansion.
B) I should've stalled, pulling all my shit into a corner near the bottom and waited for my lings to pop. Though I think this would've made me lose alot of workers and mining time and he could've just camped my lings to pop and then just kill me.
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When going ling festor in ZvT, is there any method other than researching drops, and I suppose IT's to kill tanks on the 'stump' things on Shakuras?
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On March 04 2012 02:10 Olsson wrote:http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=256613On metalopolis I get proxy two raxed, I scout it very early so in response I go 15 pool 14 extractor in reaction but I was planning to 15 hatch. I find the proxy raxes, make one queen and just pump ling and get speed but he pulls all but four SCV's and just attacks into my main. I can't hold it even with the amount of lings I have, queen and slightly superior drone count to his SCVs attacking. I didn't have a spine and I didn't stall for long. A) I should've made a spine. But then I can't put pressure back and I havn't expanded yet so if I make a spine I can't use it to defend my upcoming expansion. B) I should've stalled, pulling all my shit into a corner near the bottom and waited for my lings to pop. Though I think this would've made me lose alot of workers and mining time and he could've just camped my lings to pop and then just kill me.
You should have still 15 hatched even if you scout it as the raxes go down. The reason being, as has been discussed countless times in this thread, you NEED the extra larva. If you scout it early as you did, just go for 15 hatch 14 pool, and enough drones to make you feel comfortable with dealing with the 2rax.
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Hi guys!
Recently, in Z v Z, when playing hatch first vs hatch first, I have been facing a lot of aggressive builds, in which your opponent basically builds nothing but zerglings until he has speed, and then send them to your base. You may scout it sometimes (with overlord over the nat mineral line) and by sending like 2 zerglings. But the timing is such that you cannot expect to have banelings at that time, if you took your gas at a reasonable time, and started researching ling speed before baneling best.
Then my question is : how to defend against that? cause I want to play rather defensive macro in the early game, but I have countless games against this strat, due to its specific timing (later aggression can be dealt with banes).
So what should I do?
-I have tried putting baneling nest first, but I feel like it makes you quite passive, as it delays your speed and your potential to threaten back your opponent. At the same time, it's only 50 gas, so not such a big delay.
- should I just scout it and build as many zerglings as I can too?
More generally, in hatch first vs hatch first scenarii, should I put 1 or 2 spines for defense if I wanna play defensive?
Thanks 
(low master).
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On March 04 2012 17:28 Macpo wrote:Hi guys! Recently, in Z v Z, when playing hatch first vs hatch first, I have been facing a lot of aggressive builds, in which your opponent basically builds nothing but zerglings until he has speed, and then send them to your base. You may scout it sometimes (with overlord over the nat mineral line) and by sending like 2 zerglings. But the timing is such that you cannot expect to have banelings at that time, if you took your gas at a reasonable time, and started researching ling speed before baneling best. Then my question is : how to defend against that? cause I want to play rather defensive macro in the early game, but I have countless games against this strat, due to its specific timing (later aggression can be dealt with banes). So what should I do? -I have tried putting baneling nest first, but I feel like it makes you quite passive, as it delays your speed and your potential to threaten back your opponent. At the same time, it's only 50 gas, so not such a big delay. - should I just scout it and build as many zerglings as I can too? More generally, in hatch first vs hatch first scenarii, should I put 1 or 2 spines for defense if I wanna play defensive? Thanks (low master).
If your having reasonable success with going bling nest first, and don't plan on being aggressive any time soon, going for the baneling nest first is definitely ideal for you. It takes 30 seconds to mine 50 gas, so essentially your delaying speed by 30 seconds to be completely safe. I've not played against what you're talking about though so I'm not 100% sure...
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On March 04 2012 12:39 Host- wrote:
When going ling festor in ZvT, is there any method other than researching drops, and I suppose IT's to kill tanks on the 'stump' things on Shakuras?
Keep an overseer in your infestor control group for high ground vision (and detection) and dump infested terrans up there. Having the overseer really helps out. The infestor is still the first unit so it doesn't interfere with any spells.
I originally started doing this in late game scenarios, against cloaked ghosts or the mothership, and it's just so useful. I do it all the time now.
But you should get drops anyway, especially on shakuras. I can't imagine winning without it.
Here's a replay of me (NA masters) playing ling infestor ZvT on shakuras, dealing with plenty of cliff abuse, and it also shows how awesome drops are.
http://drop.sc/117020
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On March 04 2012 18:18 Oboeman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 12:39 Host- wrote:
When going ling festor in ZvT, is there any method other than researching drops, and I suppose IT's to kill tanks on the 'stump' things on Shakuras? Keep an overseer in your infestor control group for high ground vision (and detection) and dump infested terrans up there. Having the overseer really helps out. The infestor is still the first unit so it doesn't interfere with any spells. I originally started doing this in late game scenarios, against cloaked ghosts or the mothership, and it's just so useful. I do it all the time now. But you should get drops anyway, especially on shakuras. I can't imagine winning without it. Here's a replay of me (NA masters) playing ling infestor ZvT on shakuras, dealing with plenty of cliff abuse, and it also shows how awesome drops are. http://drop.sc/117020
Thanks man, that was really helpful I don't typically go for drops because I love burrowed infestor 'harass', but dropping IT's on the tanks..can't believe I didn't think it that =p
Thanks again
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DRG's ZvP is very Roach/Ling heavy with upgraded carapace only and then suddenly switches to Muta/Ling. When is the best time to switch to Muta/Ling. Also, why does he skip Melee/Ranged upgrade? Last question, when should you be teching to Hive when going Roach/Ling/Muta?
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On March 04 2012 18:48 raybasto wrote:
DRG's ZvP is very Roach/Ling heavy with upgraded carapace only and then suddenly switches to Muta/Ling. When is the best time to switch to Muta/Ling. Also, why does he skip Melee/Ranged upgrade? Last question, when should you be teching to Hive when going Roach/Ling/Muta?
There isn't really a 'best' time, from what I remember from the finals, he engages with his roach ling army, and transitions into mutas after that. You CAN'T tech to mutas until you recognise that you've held any all in that may be coming your way.
I've personally just started to skip the Melee/Raged upgrade as well, the reason I do it is because zealots with +1 and fucking amazing against lings, but if you can stay on even upgrades 0-1 against 1-0 for example, the zealots aren't quite so effective. Also +1 carapace works for both lings and roaches, so it's win/win for 50 more gas. As later lair becomes more popular, I believe this will become more popular aswell.
With roach/ling/muta, you don't really want to get Hive, most of the time you want to get an absolutely massive flock of mutas going, however, once you have ample gas to do the transition to Infestor/Broodlord quickly, thats when I'd go for it (8+ Gas geysers available).
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On March 04 2012 17:28 Macpo wrote:Hi guys! Recently, in Z v Z, when playing hatch first vs hatch first, I have been facing a lot of aggressive builds, in which your opponent basically builds nothing but zerglings until he has speed, and then send them to your base. You may scout it sometimes (with overlord over the nat mineral line) and by sending like 2 zerglings. But the timing is such that you cannot expect to have banelings at that time, if you took your gas at a reasonable time, and started researching ling speed before baneling best. Then my question is : how to defend against that? cause I want to play rather defensive macro in the early game, but I have countless games against this strat, due to its specific timing (later aggression can be dealt with banes). So what should I do? -I have tried putting baneling nest first, but I feel like it makes you quite passive, as it delays your speed and your potential to threaten back your opponent. At the same time, it's only 50 gas, so not such a big delay. - should I just scout it and build as many zerglings as I can too? More generally, in hatch first vs hatch first scenarii, should I put 1 or 2 spines for defense if I wanna play defensive? Thanks (low master).
I believe you should have an OL at his natural to check for drones.
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On March 04 2012 18:48 raybasto wrote:
DRG's ZvP is very Roach/Ling heavy with upgraded carapace only and then suddenly switches to Muta/Ling. When is the best time to switch to Muta/Ling. Also, why does he skip Melee/Ranged upgrade? Last question, when should you be teching to Hive when going Roach/Ling/Muta?
I am doing this kind of strat, so here is my 2 cent piece of advice:
1. Switching to muta ling is kind of situational: basically, as decaf said, "when you feel you are safe". For instance, when you killed a push, when you see him going robo or any tech strat that will delay pushes, when you see him take his third (you also need to pressure him in that case), when you scouted that he doesn't have so many units, etc.
2. he skips melee and range probably because he wants to be able to switch to heavy roach and/or heavy lings strats depending on the context. In such perspective carapace is guaranteed to be useful whatever option you take, on contrary to melee and range.
3. I think you have several options. You can decide to go mass mutas, in which case going hive is not really so useful, except maybe for later upgrades. But I personnally like to make my infestation pit just after my first round of mutas, and from there slowly moving to infestor broodlords, by making hive, greater spire, infestors, corruptors, broodlords.
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On March 04 2012 19:05 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 17:28 Macpo wrote:Hi guys! Recently, in Z v Z, when playing hatch first vs hatch first, I have been facing a lot of aggressive builds, in which your opponent basically builds nothing but zerglings until he has speed, and then send them to your base. You may scout it sometimes (with overlord over the nat mineral line) and by sending like 2 zerglings. But the timing is such that you cannot expect to have banelings at that time, if you took your gas at a reasonable time, and started researching ling speed before baneling best. Then my question is : how to defend against that? cause I want to play rather defensive macro in the early game, but I have countless games against this strat, due to its specific timing (later aggression can be dealt with banes). So what should I do? -I have tried putting baneling nest first, but I feel like it makes you quite passive, as it delays your speed and your potential to threaten back your opponent. At the same time, it's only 50 gas, so not such a big delay. - should I just scout it and build as many zerglings as I can too? More generally, in hatch first vs hatch first scenarii, should I put 1 or 2 spines for defense if I wanna play defensive? Thanks (low master). I believe you should have an OL at his natural to check for drones.
Yes and then how do you defend?
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How the hell do I beat a mech terran? He opens reactor hellion so there's no hint of pure mech yet. He gets blue flame and now I'm certain he's mech. What do i do from there? He sieges up with tanks hellions and thors and kills my third and i have no way to engage. What units do I get and how should I react? Also, what are some early signs of pure mech when I scout early?
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On March 04 2012 17:28 Macpo wrote:Hi guys! Recently, in Z v Z, when playing hatch first vs hatch first, I have been facing a lot of aggressive builds, in which your opponent basically builds nothing but zerglings until he has speed, and then send them to your base. You may scout it sometimes (with overlord over the nat mineral line) and by sending like 2 zerglings. But the timing is such that you cannot expect to have banelings at that time, if you took your gas at a reasonable time, and started researching ling speed before baneling best. Then my question is : how to defend against that? cause I want to play rather defensive macro in the early game, but I have countless games against this strat, due to its specific timing (later aggression can be dealt with banes). So what should I do? -I have tried putting baneling nest first, but I feel like it makes you quite passive, as it delays your speed and your potential to threaten back your opponent. At the same time, it's only 50 gas, so not such a big delay. - should I just scout it and build as many zerglings as I can too? More generally, in hatch first vs hatch first scenarii, should I put 1 or 2 spines for defense if I wanna play defensive? Thanks (low master).
you defend with banelings. if you dont have them in time youre doing something wrong. take gas earlier. if you scout with your 2 lings and see lings popping out of his eggs / low drone count, then you just put down a spine and build your own lings to survive until your first banelings are out.
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On March 04 2012 20:04 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 17:28 Macpo wrote:Hi guys! Recently, in Z v Z, when playing hatch first vs hatch first, I have been facing a lot of aggressive builds, in which your opponent basically builds nothing but zerglings until he has speed, and then send them to your base. You may scout it sometimes (with overlord over the nat mineral line) and by sending like 2 zerglings. But the timing is such that you cannot expect to have banelings at that time, if you took your gas at a reasonable time, and started researching ling speed before baneling best. Then my question is : how to defend against that? cause I want to play rather defensive macro in the early game, but I have countless games against this strat, due to its specific timing (later aggression can be dealt with banes). So what should I do? -I have tried putting baneling nest first, but I feel like it makes you quite passive, as it delays your speed and your potential to threaten back your opponent. At the same time, it's only 50 gas, so not such a big delay. - should I just scout it and build as many zerglings as I can too? More generally, in hatch first vs hatch first scenarii, should I put 1 or 2 spines for defense if I wanna play defensive? Thanks (low master). you defend with banelings. if you dont have them in time youre doing something wrong. take gas earlier. if you scout with your 2 lings and see lings popping out of his eggs / low drone count, then you just put down a spine and build your own lings to survive until your first banelings are out.
Thanks for the reply
one thing I am not clear about yet: should the baneling nest be built before speed tech, with your 50 gas, or after?
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On March 04 2012 20:12 Macpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 20:04 DarKFoRcE wrote:On March 04 2012 17:28 Macpo wrote:Hi guys! Recently, in Z v Z, when playing hatch first vs hatch first, I have been facing a lot of aggressive builds, in which your opponent basically builds nothing but zerglings until he has speed, and then send them to your base. You may scout it sometimes (with overlord over the nat mineral line) and by sending like 2 zerglings. But the timing is such that you cannot expect to have banelings at that time, if you took your gas at a reasonable time, and started researching ling speed before baneling best. Then my question is : how to defend against that? cause I want to play rather defensive macro in the early game, but I have countless games against this strat, due to its specific timing (later aggression can be dealt with banes). So what should I do? -I have tried putting baneling nest first, but I feel like it makes you quite passive, as it delays your speed and your potential to threaten back your opponent. At the same time, it's only 50 gas, so not such a big delay. - should I just scout it and build as many zerglings as I can too? More generally, in hatch first vs hatch first scenarii, should I put 1 or 2 spines for defense if I wanna play defensive? Thanks (low master). you defend with banelings. if you dont have them in time youre doing something wrong. take gas earlier. if you scout with your 2 lings and see lings popping out of his eggs / low drone count, then you just put down a spine and build your own lings to survive until your first banelings are out. Thanks for the reply one thing I am not clear about yet: should the baneling nest be built before speed tech, with your 50 gas, or after?
Umm.. after.
If you go 15h 17g vs 15h 17g, you should both be getting speed first... then bane nest or RW. Both the baneling nest and the roach warren will finish in time for you to have banes or roaches by the time speed is done. I don't see how you couldn't have banes or roaches by the time speed is done even going speed first.
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In ZvZ masters. I've been going 15 hatch regularly vs 14/14 speed-baneling all-ins. Sometimes I hold sometimes I don't. What I basically do is 15 hatch 15pool 17 extractor, 4 lings when my pool pops, two queens, one spine, get speed, get banelings pump lings until I see an expo. I hold position with queens at ramp to block off runby's and banelings, I keep all my drones in the main until the aggresion is over and I don't inject I save transfuses for the spine and queens. But sometimes I lose when they just get six banelings or so and just masses lings and just goes very early and blows up my spine. At this point they often have a few more zerglings and with me having slowlings and backing off not trying to get hit by his banelings he picks off all my zerglings with his and he proceeds to snipe my hatch without me able to do anything.
What is the correct response and what am I in theory doing wrong?
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@ flo:definitely dont go roach warren in that situation.
On March 04 2012 20:42 Olsson wrote:
In ZvZ masters. I've been going 15 hatch regularly vs 14/14 speed-baneling all-ins. Sometimes I hold sometimes I don't. What I basically do is 15 hatch 15pool 17 extractor, 4 lings when my pool pops, two queens, one spine, get speed, get banelings pump lings until I see an expo. I hold position with queens at ramp to block off runby's and banelings, I keep all my drones in the main until the aggresion is over and I don't inject I save transfuses for the spine and queens. But sometimes I lose when they just get six banelings or so and just masses lings and just goes very early and blows up my spine. At this point they often have a few more zerglings and with me having slowlings and backing off not trying to get hit by his banelings he picks off all my zerglings with his and he proceeds to snipe my hatch without me able to do anything.
What is the correct response and what am I in theory doing wrong?
i think its better to get baneling nest first if you expect an allin. speed before baneling nest makes it very risky and yes you will just die sometimes if people play it well. also, for the purpose of going speed first i think its not so good to get late gas, because then your banes nest is horribly late.
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On March 04 2012 20:42 DarKFoRcE wrote:@ flo:definitely dont go roach warren in that situation. Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 20:42 Olsson wrote:
In ZvZ masters. I've been going 15 hatch regularly vs 14/14 speed-baneling all-ins. Sometimes I hold sometimes I don't. What I basically do is 15 hatch 15pool 17 extractor, 4 lings when my pool pops, two queens, one spine, get speed, get banelings pump lings until I see an expo. I hold position with queens at ramp to block off runby's and banelings, I keep all my drones in the main until the aggresion is over and I don't inject I save transfuses for the spine and queens. But sometimes I lose when they just get six banelings or so and just masses lings and just goes very early and blows up my spine. At this point they often have a few more zerglings and with me having slowlings and backing off not trying to get hit by his banelings he picks off all my zerglings with his and he proceeds to snipe my hatch without me able to do anything.
What is the correct response and what am I in theory doing wrong? i think its better to get baneling nest first if you expect an allin. speed before baneling nest makes it very risky and yes you will just die sometimes if people play it well. also, for the purpose of going speed first i think its not so good to get late gas, because then your banes nest is horribly late.
Yeah it sounds alot safer. But it seems like in that case 14/14 seems just as good because you'll have speed faster and you know that with such late speed the 15 hatch guy can't put any pressure on you and you're free to drone up, right?
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EPT
